Clinging to Assurance of Salvation

[ntisawesome]

I was taught growing up that if I said the sinner’s prayer, and believe in God, I don’t have to wonder if I’m going to heaven - Jesus promised it.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not assured.

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

There are many other places in scripture, often the words of Jesus himself, that support this promise that I really want to cling to.

The idea that my salvation is not assured is scary as hell, literally. I’m in need of explanation here.

 

[treba]

I was taught growing up that if I said the sinner’s prayer, and believe in God, I don’t have to wonder if I’m going to heaven - Jesus promised it.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not assured.

There are many other places in scripture, often the words of Jesus himself, that support this promise that I really want to cling to.

The idea that my salvation is not assured is scary as hell, literally. I’m in need of explanation here.

This would be better addressed in the Apologetics section not really the Traditional Catholic section IMO.

 

[wardrandolph]

First let me welcome you to CAF.It seems Jn.3:16 is quoted or actually mis-quoted by a lot of people.Please re-read that passage.The wording in the KJV is “should"not shall”.I am relying on Jesus to get me safely home.I’m not relying on a one-time prayer.I have a Blessed Hope not presumtion.There are a lot of Scripual teaching on living the example of Christ.If you would like,I can give you these Scriptures.Peace,Rocky.

 

[TLM08]

I was taught growing up that if I said the sinner’s prayer, and believe in God, I don’t have to wonder if I’m going to heaven - Jesus promised it.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not assured.

There are many other places in scripture, often the words of Jesus himself, that support this promise that I really want to cling to.

The idea that my salvation is not assured is scary as hell, literally. I’m in need of explanation here.

Yes this particular catholic teaching that there is no assurance of salvation is absolutely terrifying. According to the church, anyone who says that they know that they are going to heaven is guilty of the sin of presumption.

Scripture however says that we can know. To me, this motivates us to obey Christ out of pure love for Him and what he has done for us rather than out of fear of condemnation.

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

**"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus…" Romans 8:1

The traditional catholicism arena is likely the only place where things like this are taught. You’ll not likely hear any difficult catholic teaching presented in post Vatican II circles. For that reason, even though I have disagreement, I have a lot of respect for traditional catholicism because they stand by their principles.

 

[JustaServant]

I was taught growing up that if I said the sinner’s prayer, and believe in God, I don’t have to wonder if I’m going to heaven - Jesus promised it.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not assured.

There are many other places in scripture, often the words of Jesus himself, that support this promise that I really want to cling to.

The idea that my salvation is not assured is scary as hell, literally. I’m in need of explanation here.

OSAS is an enticing philosophy that has it’s roots in the heresy of John Calvin. It was never taught in the Church before him and there are many Protestants themselves who reject it.
I struggled with it myself and was reluctant to let it go (its a sweet poison that puts people to sleep). I will tell you when I finally did, it was like being released from a kind of mental prison, you don’t realize it until afterwards.
I will also tell you there is a different assurance in the Catholic Church. You are still assured of many things and God will remain faithful.
What I would encourage you to do is slow down. Put some issues on the back burner an consentrate on others if you are becoming Catholic. You dont need to eat an entire gourmet meal in one sitting.
This issue, BTW, is more appropriate on the apologetics side, this forum is for different issues.
Hope to see you there my friend.

 

[ejb21]

OSAS is an enticing philosophy that has it’s roots in the heresy of John Calvin. It was never taught in the Church before him and there are many Protestants themselves who reject it.
I struggled with it myself and was reluctant to let it go (its a sweet poison that puts people to sleep). I will tell you when I finally did, it was like being released from a kind of mental prison, you don’t realize it until afterwards.
I will also tell you there is a different assurance in the Catholic Church. You are still assured of many things and God will remain faithful.
What I would encourage you to do is slow down. Put some issues on the back burner an consentrate on others if you are becoming Catholic. You dont need to eat an entire gourmet meal in one sitting.
This issue, BTW, is more appropriate on the apologetics side, this forum is for different issues.
Hope to see you there my friend.

“You are still assured of many things and God will remain faithful”.

And God will remain faithful. Great point.

 

[Carlan]

OSAS is an enticing philosophy that has it’s roots in the heresy of John Calvin. It was never taught in the Church before him and there are many Protestants themselves who reject it.
I struggled with it myself and was reluctant to let it go (its a sweet poison that puts people to sleep). I will tell you when I finally did, it was like being released from a kind of mental prison, you don’t realize it until afterwards.
I will also tell you there is a different assurance in the Catholic Church. You are still assured of many things and God will remain faithful.
What I would encourage you to do is slow down. Put some issues on the back burner an consentrate on others if you are becoming Catholic. You dont need to eat an entire gourmet meal in one sitting.
This issue, BTW, is more appropriate on the apologetics side, this forum is for different issues.
Hope to see you there my friend.

Thank you much Servant for you kind witness in this situation. God continue to bless you in this way. We need you. Carlan

 

[Carlan]

I was taught growing up that if I said the sinner’s prayer, and believe in God, I don’t have to wonder if I’m going to heaven - Jesus promised it.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not assured.

There are many other places in scripture, often the words of Jesus himself, that support this promise that I really want to cling to.

The idea that my salvation is not assured is scary as hell, literally. I’m in need of explanation here.

Welcome N Tis awesome,

There are few more confusing topics than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: “Have you been saved?” What the question also means is: “Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?” Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.

All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set.
: “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”
: “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”

:Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

We have a merciful God and he has provided abuntantly for us, We have the blessed grace of God and the gifts of the Sacraments to sactify us, make us holy and pleasing to God. God will teach all this, n TisAwesome , as you journey along with us in the Church. God bless you, Father, Son , and Holy Spirit. Carlan

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

 

[Tradycja]

Many Protestants (say that they) believe that once they are “born again,” they are then guaranteed entry into heaven when they die - no matter what they do or do not do. Therefore, logically, IF heaven is a good place, and IF they really want to go there, THEN they should commit suicide to get to heaven NOW. Why should they wait for the next bit of human unhappiness to come along? They could “be at home” with Jesus and not worry about the heating bill or their health.

The reason usually given in answer to this question is that suicide is a sin and sin should be avoided. But notice the necessary conclusion: the sin of suicide leads to an immediate reward (heaven), while the righteous act of living leads to yet more and more suffering. So heaven is the reward for sin, and suffering is the reward of virtue! NO SANE person believes this. It is utterly opposed to the very concepts of sin, virtue, and God. A system which has this as its basic premise CANNOT satisfy the person when it comes to the real questions. To answer these questions someone needs truth. And Catholicism has a consistent, logical, TRUTHFUL theology which answers these troubling questions. But this is only natural, as our theology was given by Jesus to the Apostles, and from them to us.

From Vin Lewis’s Tract “Why be Catholic?”
allroadsministry.com/tracts/why_be_catholic.html

 

[bpbasilphx]

I was taught growing up that if I said the sinner’s prayer, and believe in God, I don’t have to wonder if I’m going to heaven - Jesus promised it.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not assured.

---

**There’s a big deal of difference between what pop-evangelicals mean by being saved and what the Bible means by being saved.

Next, our security should be in Christ Himself, Who is eternal. But too many pop-evangelicals put their security in their own act of faith–which is, again, NOT the same thing.**

 

[Carlan]

Yes this particular catholic teaching that there is no assurance of salvation is absolutely terrifying. According to the church, anyone who says that they know that they are going to heaven is guilty of the sin of presumption.

Scripture however says that we can know. To me, this motivates us to obey Christ out of pure love for Him and what he has done for us rather than out of fear of condemnation.

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

**“Therefore, *there is now no condemnation ***for those who are in Christ Jesus…” Romans 8:1According to the church, anyone who says that they know that they are going to heaven is guilty of the sin of presumption.

The traditional catholicism arena is likely the only place where things like this are taught. You’ll not likely hear any difficult catholic teaching presented in post Vatican II circles. For that reason, even though I have disagreement, I have a lot of respect for traditional catholicism because they stand by their principles.

TLm I Quote you,
According to the church, anyone who says that they know that they are going to heaven is guilty of the sin of presumption. (end Quote.)
That is not true, the Church does not say that to her people, There are some Protestant Churches teaching the false doctrine of ‘Once saved Always saved’. Their members are in danger of the sin of presumption.
Vatican II does not teach error… per haps it would help to read what it writes and then you can determine from your own mind.Carlan

 

[stuart12]

He who endures to the end shall be saved said our Lord…

only then will you know if you are ‘saved’

 

[JustaServant]

I have a lot of respect for traditional catholicism because they stand by their principles.

You go from Catholic to atheist to Protestant to Catholic to Catholic SSPX back to Protestant.
So, tell us again how you stand by principles…

 

[AnneElliot]

I was taught growing up that if I said the sinner’s prayer, and believe in God, I don’t have to wonder if I’m going to heaven - Jesus promised it.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not assured.

There are many other places in scripture, often the words of Jesus himself, that support this promise that I really want to cling to.

The idea that my salvation is not assured is scary as hell, literally. I’m in need of explanation here.

The concept of OSAS makes God an employer and His followers employees. If I do x,y, and z, then God is obligated (what people really mean when they say “assured”) to reward me (i.e., with salvation). Something like, “I said this prayer, performed this act, etc. on this day and so was saved; therefore no matter what I will go to Heaven.” We are not in a contractual relationship with God. God is not (and cannot be) obligated to reward us with Heaven.

We are called to recognize our sinfulness and implore Christ’s mercy and forgiveness.

 

[JustaServant]

Yes this particular catholic teaching that there is no assurance of salvation is absolutely terrifying. According to the church, anyone who says that they know that they are going to heaven is guilty of the sin of presumption.

Scripture however says that we can know. To me, this motivates us to obey Christ out of pure love for Him and what he has done for us rather than out of fear of condemnation.

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

**"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus…" Romans 8:1

1. Does OSAS give those who believe in it a special ability to discern who does and does not have a relationship with Jesus Christ?
2. Is there a sister doctrine of Never Saved in the First Place with which those are labeled who do not walk the beaten path of a particular denomination?
3. If a Christian exhibits all of the signs of having a relationship with Jesus Christ, and then enters the Catholic Church, does that step automatically negate those earlier signs and therefore indicate that the Christian was Never Saved in the First Place?
4. If so, what does that say about Once Saved Always Saved as a doctrine?

 

[TLM08]

1. Does OSAS give those who believe in it a special ability to discern who does and does not have a relationship with Jesus Christ?
2. Is there a sister doctrine of Never Saved in the First Place with which those are labeled who do not walk the beaten path of a particular denomination?
3. If a Christian exhibits all of the signs of having a relationship with Jesus Christ, and then enters the Catholic Church, does that step automatically negate those earlier signs and therefore indicate that the Christian was Never Saved in the First Place?
4. If so, what does that say about Once Saved Always Saved as a doctrine?

1. Only individual believers know the depth of the intimacy in the relationship that they have with Jesus.
2. Denominations are created by disagreements among men. The same can be said for the fragmentation that has occurred within catholicism, especially over the 40 years since Vatican II.
3. I do not believe re-entering the catholic church places one’s salvation in jeopardy. Catholics love God deeply and are often very devout toward the entire family of God, especially Mary the mother of Jesus. I believe that God wants us to hold Mary in high regard. Reverts are motivated by a strong sense of loyalty to their catholic identity and a desire to understand completely, and in a meaningful way the faith they were raised with.

Many people leave the catholic faith without really understanding exactly what it is that they are leaving. You can chalk this up to very poor catechesis in the post Vatican II catholic schools. When they finally learn from catholic sources the fundamentals of the faith, they make their way back into the church as reverts. This was what I did.

It took me a few years to realize that no matter how you slice it, catholic doctrine looks nothing like the gospel presented in the New Testament. Considering Paul’s warning in the Book of Galatians, I had to make a choice between my catholic identity or Gospel of salvation through the perfect, sufficient, one time attoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary.

1. I do believe therefore that salvation is a one time thing. Salvation does not come because someone answers an “altar call”. Salvation comes to all who believe in the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross as full payment for our sins and that God raised him from the dead. The Book of Hebrews says that by one sacrifice he has made us “perfect forever” and that there is no longer any sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 10:18

Can anyone actually lose their salvation? Certainly there have been people who have left good christian backgrounds and have gotten into all sorts of evil practices and behaviors. Did they lose their salvation? I think the better question is this: Did they ever* really *believe in the first place?

Peace & God Bless.

 

[JustaServant]

1. Denominations are created by disagreements among men. The same can be said for the fragmentation that has occurred within catholicism, especially over the 40 years since Vatican II.

What in the world are talking about?
There is no ‘fragmentation’ of the Catholic Church. There are disagreements about the interpretation of Vatican 2, but the church is intact.

 

[TLM08]

What in the world are talking about?
There is no ‘fragmentation’ of the Catholic Church. There are disagreements about the interpretation of Vatican 2, but the church is intact.

There is no fragmentation within the Catholic Church? Where have you been the last 40 years? The disagreements over Vatican ll have led to serious fragmentation within the Catholic Church through the systematic destruction of the catholic educational system. It’s even worse than that, many catholics do not even know what they believe.

From the Real Presence Eucharistic Education and Adoration Association:

***"…We’re all familiar with the surveys conducted a few years ago that seem to lead to the conclusion that only about twenty-seven percent, I think it was, twenty-seven percent of Catholics believe in the Real Presence as the Church teaches it.

Personally, I think that the observers interpreted the result of that survey a little bit wrong. I don’t think that it was only twenty-seven percent believed; it might have been only twenty-seven percent knew the teaching of the Church. That’s our big problem, a case of simple lack of knowledge. Most of these Catholics just do not know what they believe, or what they as, Catholics should believe. They simply have not been taught the Catholic faith. Look at the condition of Catholic education for the past thirty-five years. Fortunately the Catholic bishops have finally realized that it is a disaster. Most a few years ago, the Archbishop who headed the commission on education publicly declared that the Catholic religious education is a shambles and had been that way for at least thirty years. The result is two or three generations of young Catholics who know virtually nothing about their faith. They do not know what they believe or why they believe. The older generations have heard very little to reinforce what they have learned in their youth. Obviously, we have a lot of re-educating to do."*
~Fr. Robert Goedert**

Central to Catholic worship is the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist yet the majority of people who identify themselves as catholics either don’t understand it or just flat out don’t even believe in it. And you say there is no fragmentation within the church? You cannot possibly be serious.

 

[Carlan]

There is no fragmentation within the Catholic Church? Where have you been the last 40 years? The disagreements over Vatican ll have led to serious fragmentation within the Catholic Church through the systematic destruction of the catholic educational system. It’s even worse than that, many catholics do not even know what they believe.

From the Real Presence Eucharistic Education and Adoration Association:

***"…We’re all familiar with the surveys conducted a few years ago that seem to lead to the conclusion that only about twenty-seven percent, I think it was, twenty-seven percent of Catholics believe in the Real Presence as the Church teaches it.

Personally, I think that the observers interpreted the result of that survey a little bit wrong. I don’t think that it was only twenty-seven percent believed; it might have been only twenty-seven percent knew the teaching of the Church. That’s our big problem, a case of simple lack of knowledge. Most of these Catholics just do not know what they believe, or what they as, Catholics should believe. They simply have not been taught the Catholic faith. Look at the condition of Catholic education for the past thirty-five years. Fortunately the Catholic bishops have finally realized that it is a disaster. Most a few years ago, the Archbishop who headed the commission on education publicly declared that the Catholic religious education is a shambles and had been that way for at least thirty years. The result is two or three generations of young Catholics who know virtually nothing about their faith. They do not know what they believe or why they believe. The older generations have heard very little to reinforce what they have learned in their youth. Obviously, we have a lot of re-educating to do."***
~Fr. Robert Goedert

Central to Catholic worship is the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist yet the majority of people who identify themselves as catholics either don’t understand it or just flat out don’t even believe in it. And you say there is no fragmentation within the church? You cannot possibly be serious.

So you aggree with R,Goedert, What are you doing on the side lines then, get back where you belong and start peaching our Traditions along with our Bible,the one we put together some 1500 hundred years ago, excuse my tough line but someone needs to say it. CArlan

 

[ntisawesome]

This would be better addressed in the Apologetics section not really the Traditional Catholic section IMO.

Yeah. I agree. But I am bad at asking questions of Apologists because none of my questions get answered.

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this question.

All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.

This is not what I am clinging to. My Baptist pastor outright rejected this “popular view” and gave a severe lecture to anyone who believed it.

Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

I can embrace this. And it is more rational than any other way I have thought about it.

Therefore, logically, IF heaven is a good place, and IF they really want to go there, THEN they should commit suicide to get to heaven NOW. Why should they wait for the next bit of human unhappiness to come along? They could “be at home” with Jesus and not worry about the heating bill or their health.

The reason usually given in answer to this question is that suicide is a sin and sin should be avoided. But notice the necessary conclusion: the sin of suicide leads to an immediate reward (heaven), while the righteous act of living leads to yet more and more suffering. So heaven is the reward for sin, and suffering is the reward of virtue!

I think this might (i sincerely stress the word might here) possibly be a misunderstanding about Protestant teachings. I cannot speak for all denominations, but I was raised in a Baptist Church and taught that suicide is a one way ticket to hell. You cannot possibly die in a state of friendship with God if you turn your back on him in your final instant by taking your own life.

Back to the issue, if you all will forgive me for continuing this thread in the wrong forum…

So I think I misunderstood the point in not having assured salvation. Correct me if I’m wrong but let me try to summarize my new understanding.

We cannot have assurance of salvation because if we did, then it would follow that it came from something we did, which cannot be true because we are lost without the grace of God. But what we do have (?) is the promise of God that if we believe in him, and follow him (like, TRULY follow him and his word
, not just a bingo-bango-saved-now-lets-go-back-to-the-couch-and-watch-hockey-and-drink-beer faith) that he will grant us salvation.

Perhaps I’m hearing what I want to hear? It’s just that if we are not promised salvation, then it would seem to contradict the whole point of having faith in salvation! Isn’t that one of the biggest parts of the faith?