Clinging to Assurance of Salvation

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Letting go of what is termed “eternal security” was one of the hardest parts of my reversion. It’s not so much that we don’t have the assurance of salvation as it is that we grow in understanding of where we stand in relation to a holy God. Holding onto a belief in eternal security seems arrogant to the Catholic. And it certainly is. It is presumption. It is as though one is insisting that God keep a promise even though we have let down our end.
Of course He will keep His covenant, but no individual knows the future and whether or not they will keep their end. God knows. He has preordained us for eternity, and knows which of us choose Him. But we don’t know, except for the moment.
One of the ways to deal with this is to simply ask yourself: are you a christian? To you believe Jesus died for you? Do you love God enough to obey His Son? Do you trust Him apart from what amounts to our security?
If the answer is yes, then you have His assurance. Because you know He is a loving and Covenant-keeping God.
I can tell you there is nothing more freeing that discarding that hellish doctrine.
You will love God more than you ever did before.
 
Simply “believing in God” never saved anyone. If all we had to do was believe in God’s exsistence or in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, then satan would be saved. James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
 
Just curious but, do we really not have assurance?

I mean, we can know with near certainty if we are in mortal sin or not, because of the fact that it takes full knowledge and a deliberate act of the will to commit it. And we know it is those who are not in a state of grace who do not attain salvation. But for those who die in a state of grace, are they not assured of their salvation?

OK, so we can’t know that for the rest of our lives we will be in a state of grace, but once we start down the correct road and gain some inertia, so to speak, well one couldn’t even think of committing a mortal sin because of the horror of it.

We should always be aware of our current state. That is, if I were to die right now, where would I end up? The first step I think is to enter and remain in a state of grace, through God’s grace of course, and then to grow in virtue, root out vices, improve one’s prayer life, make frequent reception of the sacraments, and so forth, so as to grow closer to God and grow in holiness. For someone who is quite far along this road, I think they can be more certain of their status. Such people are more aware of their imperfections, but also are more aware of God’s mercy and grace. Such people humble themselves before God, recognizing they actually can’t progress down this road themselves, unless God is with them.

But, I don’t think it’s a guessing game.

I think the difference is that many Protestants believe it takes a single act of the will to become saved, while we are working on it every day. In Catholicism, the ball is largely in our court, for how we will act on God’s grace. The trick is, we give it right back to God, realizing that we’re completely incapable of doing it ourselves.
 
your Quote

We cannot have assurance of salvation because if we did, then it would follow that it came from something we did, which cannot be true because we are lost without the grace of God. But what we do have (?) is the promise of God that if we believe in him, and follow him (like, TRULY follow him and his word
, not just a bingo-bango-saved-now-lets-go-back-to-the-couch-and-watch-hockey-and-drink-beer faith) that he will grant us salvation.

Perhaps I’m hearing what I want to hear? It’s just that if we are not promised salvation, then it would seem to contradict the whole point of having faith in salvation! Isn’t that one of the biggest parts of the faith? (end quote)

Again assurance we have; infallible certitude we may not

We fall from God’s grace when we commit mortal sin(deadly sin)
If we sin in that way before we die without repenting we lose the assurance of heaven which God has given to us through his gift of grace.Mortal sin (deadly) kills sanctifying grace in our soul and if a christian dies without repenting they will go to hell. :eek:Sorry if I have not made myself clear. Carlan

All of the above posters have given you excellent council,C
 
All of the above posters have given you excellent council,C
Amen!

(I’m HONESTLY not trying to compare following Christ with “work” here so please don’t think that that is what I am trying to say. I just can’t think of any other analogy that works.)

Suppose I am hired for a a job at the office. I can be sure that I will be paid the agreed upon salary so long as I show up and do the job I promised to do. But since without knowing the future, I cannot know for certain that I won’t be lazy and skip out on showing up to my job. But SO LONG AS I DO and continue to fulfill my job, I can be sure that I will get paid?

Am I right in thinking of it like this? I can be only as certain in my salvation as I can be certain in my future of not turning away from God?
What I would encourage you to do is slow down. Put some issues on the back burner an consentrate on others if you are becoming Catholic. You dont need to eat an entire gourmet meal in one sitting.
I’m trying to take the issues one at a time. Communion with the Saints and the Blessed Mother Mary are on the back burner right now. I no longer reject the idea of praying to them. But I’m not quite fully understanding them all. So I am taking your advice, so to speak.
This issue, BTW, is more appropriate on the apologetics side, this forum is for different issues.
Hope to see you there my friend.
I will definitely use that next time - if I can find it? But where can I make questions come up public? The only place like that I’ve found is the “Ask An Apologist” place, but I’ve put a few questions in there and they haven’t been answered. And if they don’t get answered by forum staff then they don’t show up at all for anyone to answer. Is there a public section where I can ask questions like that?
 
Yeah. I agree. But I am bad at asking questions of Apologists because none of my questions get answered.

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this question.

This is not what I am clinging to. My Baptist pastor outright rejected this “popular view” and gave a severe lecture to anyone who believed it.

I can embrace this. And it is more rational than any other way I have thought about it.

I think this might (i sincerely stress the word might here) possibly be a misunderstanding about Protestant teachings. I cannot speak for all denominations, but I was raised in a Baptist Church and taught that suicide is a one way ticket to hell. You cannot possibly die in a state of friendship with God if you turn your back on him in your final instant by taking your own life.

Back to the issue, if you all will forgive me for continuing this thread in the wrong forum…

So I think I misunderstood the point in not having assured salvation. Correct me if I’m wrong but let me try to summarize my new understanding.

We cannot have assurance of salvation because if we did, then it would follow that it came from something we did, which cannot be true because we are lost without the grace of God. But what we do have (?) is the promise of God that if we believe in him, and follow him (like, TRULY follow him and his word
, not just a bingo-bango-saved-now-lets-go-back-to-the-couch-and-watch-hockey-and-drink-beer faith) that he will grant us salvation.

Perhaps I’m hearing what I want to hear? It’s just that if we are not promised salvation, then it would seem to contradict the whole point of having faith in salvation! Isn’t that one of the biggest parts of the faith?
hI Awesome, if you go to the top of this page and hit Catholic Answers Forums it will take you a list of all forums .you will see Apologetics listed and the sub forums are listed under it. Good Luck:thumbsup:Carlan
 
OK Thanks!

But am I understanding the Church’s stance on Assured Salvation correctly?
 
We must love God with our wills… wishful thinking, hopeful desires… these have their places…

But they are not love. The decision to love is a sacrifice of our wills, because we do not love God, and requires a change of will.

When you think of the word ‘heart’ think of ‘will’ instead of ‘feeling’. The will is the truth from the heart.

This is why people go to Hell instead of Heaven. They tell themselves they love God in their minds, but their wills, their hearts, are far from God, they are full of sin and the deeds of the devil.

Our will must obey the First Commandment in deed. If it does not, how shall we meet any final temptations at the end of our lives? How shall we face God, with what we love before Him as an idol in that time?

Assurance of salvation. . is a great deceit of the devil. Few are saved. Few change their wills, because of the effort therein.

Hope is good, when it is founded in genuine will to love God. Then our mistakes are mistakes, rather than direct denials of God founded in presumption and illusion.

‘Brothers, do not be surprised and do not be afraid. Unwittingly you have pursued falsehood thinking it to be the truth. If you had been taught the truth first you would have been found effortlessly tending toward salvation, just as you now effortlessly lean toward perdition.’

St. Norbert, to the people of Antwerp

‘When we offend the good God, if we were to look at our crucifix, we should hear Our Lord saying to us in the depths of our soul, “Will you too, then, take the side of My enemies? Will you crucify Me again?”’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

‘When the object of our love is infinite we can always love more and more.’

St. Ignatius of Loyola
 
We must love God with our wills… wishful thinking, hopeful desires… these have their places…

But they are not love. The decision to love is a sacrifice of our wills, because we do not love God, and requires a change of will.

When you think of the word ‘heart’ think of ‘will’ instead of ‘feeling’. The will is the truth from the heart.

This is why people go to Hell instead of Heaven. They tell themselves they love God in their minds, but their wills, their hearts, are far from God, they are full of sin and the deeds of the devil.

Our will must obey the First Commandment in deed. If it does not, how shall we meet any final temptations at the end of our lives? How shall we face God, with what we love before Him as an idol in that time?

Assurance of salvation. . is a great deceit of the devil. Few are saved. Few change their wills, because of the effort therein.

Hope is good, when it is founded in genuine will to love God. Then our mistakes are mistakes, rather than direct denials of God founded in presumption and illusion.

‘Brothers, do not be surprised and do not be afraid. Unwittingly you have pursued falsehood thinking it to be the truth. If you had been taught the truth first you would have been found effortlessly tending toward salvation, just as you now effortlessly lean toward perdition.’

St. Norbert, to the people of Antwerp

‘When we offend the good God, if we were to look at our crucifix, we should hear Our Lord saying to us in the depths of our soul, “Will you too, then, take the side of My enemies? Will you crucify Me again?”’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

‘When the object of our love is infinite we can always love more and more.’

St. Ignatius of Loyola
So how are you saying that one changes one’s will to love God? How does one change from a desire to love God, to the will to love God? How does one know if they are actually loving God, according to your definition?
 
The difference between desire and will, is in the deed. And the deed is the cross, that is, self denial of our passions and bearing of suffering for Christ.

We may fail outside at some deed or another, but we know inside sufficiently whether we willed it strongly and gave our all or not and did it with God prayerfully or not.

We ‘give up’ what we have, and ‘follow’ Him, on the Way of the Cross because we love Him truly.

Or, we live an ordinary life in the world, like everyone else, because we do not love Him enough to change from it.

Generally, to get an idea of how one should live on earth, one should consider how people live in Heaven, and imitate them. How do they think, how do they feel, how do they act, what do they desire?

The saints are the models for these. Faith allows us to do this. We trade in our material goods, selfish desires, sensual pleasures, etc. for God in this life, and even more of God in the next.

Faith is not a mere belief that God exists, it is a belief in what He has told us realized in real deed, not only intellectually ‘Oh God told me if I do this, I receive that’ but ‘He told me if I do this, I receive that, so I will do it.’ Because obviously if you truly believe you will receive infinite treasure for trading in pennies on earth, you will trade in your pennies. Most people just pretend but do not live the Faith.

We live mortified here, to live abundantly there because we have faith in the promises given of the rewards of mortification and the cross here, and realize we can even rise to contemplation of the Lord and a kind of moral and spiritual perfection before we die if we dwell in Him sufficiently.

And so we offer up things and sufferings for people we cannot see, holy souls in purgatory, prayers to saints, gifts to those who do not like us at all or reward us at all in this life.

We live like Christ because we love Him.

Or we merely admire the idea of Christ, and call it love, but truly love more what we do everyday without Him and His will, His truths He has give us to obey, promises, and revelations.

‘Ah! if we had the eyes of angels with which to see Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is here present on this altar, and who is looking at us, how we should love Him! We should never more wish to part from Him.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

‘Perfect love of God renders death agreeable, making the soul taste the greatest sweetness therein. The soul that loves is inundated with a torrent of delights at the approach of that moment when she is about to enjoy the full possession of her Beloved. On the point of being delivered from this prison of the body, she seems already to contemplate the glories of Paradise and all within her is transformed into love.’

St. John of the Cross
 
OK Thanks!

But am I understanding the Church’s stance on Assured Salvation correctly?
G’ morning awesome, I am not an Apologist, just let me put it this way. We need to stop covering up our disobedience and the sins of our lives . Face the real truth about ourselves, put on the new man/woman . We have been saved through the Blood of our Lord Jesus.

Become truly holy as He is holy, then one can hope to face Him as he wants us to be, pure and holy as we face him in His Presence in heaven when our life here below :getholy:isover. If we become truly holy by the time we die our entry into heaven is assured. Read the Beatitudes, ‘Only the pure in heart will see God’.:getholy::gopray2: Carlan

c
 
Shin,

I really agree with what you say, but for some reason it is striking me oddly today.

How do you know if you are doing enough? I’ve been praying a lot for the grace to overcome certain attachments and imperfections, but I have the fear about not doing enough. As it is right now, I am very bad with bearing suffering, though I am trying to get better.

I have a very strong desire to serve god, but your posts frighten me, and I don’t know if I’m doing enough, or how one can know.

Sorry if I’m going off-topic.
 
Shin,

I really agree with what you say, but for some reason it is striking me oddly today.

How do you know if you are doing enough? I’ve been praying a lot for the grace to overcome certain attachments and imperfections, but I have the fear about not doing enough. As it is right now, I am very bad with bearing suffering, though I am trying to get better.

I have a very strong desire to serve god, but your posts frighten me, and I don’t know if I’m doing enough, or how one can know.

Sorry if I’m going off-topic.
I know how you feel. However, it is something we have to bear with to a certain degree. We can have trust, confidence, fear, and love and peace -all- within ourselves at the same time, and seek a proper healthy balance of these. Nowadays people react against all negative emotions as if the were poison instead of meant to serve us, and either over react like fragile lilies to the slightest brush, and cry or become depressed, or they deny them utterly and act outrageously. But these are all meant for our own good properly used, fear, hate, disgust, they have their proper objects - sin, devils, evils, etc.

We require both reward and punishment to motivate us and the holy scriptures are full to the brim of both, God has given them to us aplenty.

‘I never knew thee. . . Depart from me. . .’

‘in fear and trembling’ we seek our our salvation. In the beginning this fear must in fact be of punishment because we lack love, and require it as motivation. Later, this fear is of the horror of offending God which we have finally realized because of love. It is important to realize we should not seek to go from beginning to end without thoroughly learning the beginning lesson, which takes some time. Fear of Hell is something that cultivated properly motivates one to serve and love God, as opposed to an unreasonable fear that paralyzes and depresses, instead a proper virtuous fear motivates and does not paralyze but makes one rely on God more and more greatly.

I often read a good tract on Hell to motivate myself. I really treasure them, they’ve done a great deal of good for me to get moving when if they were not there I would selfishly rest on my laurels not thinking of how many souls so greatly need us to serve God as faithful sons and soldiers to save them from agonies and evils.

How strong is your will for God? It can always be greater. Because the object is infinite, and He can grant us greater and greater love of Himself. The saints are never satisfied. They know the more they love God, the more joy they have, the more of God them know in Heaven and in this life. There are lesser and greater in Heaven.

And on this earth… when we worry about how little we do… well… I understand, I go through that… We have to realize we are like little children, especially in the beginning though. We can do nothing without God. We begin small. Very small, because very likely we have lived in sin and still are only beginning to escape it. Thank God for beginnings!

I mean, you can seek self knowledge and self understanding to see how much your will can bear, see how long you can as it were, hold onto a burning brand before the pain makes you drop it, but even this is not a perfect test, as after all, you have to consider where your will would be at if you had taken care of a great many matters of virtue and improvement of it earlier.

We have trust in God’s perfect goodness despite our flawed wills. We have to trust that if we are sincerely and truly putting good effort in, He will give us what we need to proceed and grow in love. And this is a good trust, because it is His ardent desire for us, which He gave up Himself for. He is a benevolent God, a perfect God, but a benevolent God. 🙂

This is where I think, one has to consider mortal sin, and if one became the type of person who would never commit a mortal sin, not on any sudden impulse, or whatnot, then one would feel the better about matters generally. If one had a true horror of it, rather than any delectation in it. This can take some doing if one is male, but if one imagines the gates of Hell often enough, custody of the eyes is achievable as any sensual temptations become replaced by the horror of that, and women become holy to us rather than sources of pleasure of the senses, we become horrified at the thought.

Our true goal is to be the kind of person who never voluntarily commits a venial sin. This is a very worthy goal and the true goal of people who love God. 🙂

It’s important to remember that the very will to do good is a grace, and shows God’s presence with us. And that we need to pray for this will like beggars, because we need His strength to do everything – and we wouldn’t have it any other way, because that is what it means to live in Him. 🙂

Well, this has gone on a good deal. My apologies if I went a little off too.

‘That we may not be misled by self-love in the management of our affairs, let us not consider them as our own but as anothers’; partiality will thus give way to justice.’

St. Ignatius of Loyola

‘The humble realize that of themselves they are nothing, and that they stand in extreme need of help and grace of heaven; but the proud are convinced that they are full of grace and virtue. That is why God takes pleasure in showering His gifts on the former and in depriving the latter of His bounty.’

St. Augustine

‘I want to follow you and be like you, O my Jesus; I would rather be crucified with you than enjoy all the pleasures of this world without you.’

St. Bernadette Soubirous
 
Shin,

I really agree with what you say, but for some reason it is striking me oddly today.

How do you know if you are doing enough? I’ve been praying a lot for the grace to overcome certain attachments and imperfections, but I have the fear about not doing enough. As it is right now, I am very bad with bearing suffering, though I am trying to get better.

I have a very strong desire to serve god, but your posts frighten me, and I don’t know if I’m doing enough, or how one can know.

Sorry if I’m going off-topic.
Oh seeker, I am sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I have reached that perfection, I am far from it, We all fall short of the Glory of God. All we can do is persevere in God’s gift of grace with his help and if and when we fall turn to him in sorrow and repentance, We have the gift of the Sacraments to help us to become what he created us to be . He loves us, he created us for himself and he will never give up on us no matter how much we feel we fall short. God bless you, Seeker, :)Carlan
with his love and peace always
 
I know how you feel. However, it is something we have to bear with to a certain degree. We can have trust, confidence, fear, and love and peace -all- within ourselves at the same time, and seek a proper healthy balance of these. Nowadays people react against all negative emotions as if the were poison instead of meant to serve us, and either over react like fragile lilies to the slightest brush, and cry or become depressed, or they deny them utterly and act outrageously. But these are all meant for our own good properly used, fear, hate, disgust, they have their proper objects - sin, devils, evils, etc.

We require both reward and punishment to motivate us and the holy scriptures are full to the brim of both, God has given them to us aplenty.

‘I never knew thee. . . Depart from me. . .’

‘in fear and trembling’ we seek our our salvation. In the beginning this fear must in fact be of punishment because we lack love, and require it as motivation. Later, this fear is of the horror of offending God which we have finally realized because of love. It is important to realize we should not seek to go from beginning to end without thoroughly learning the beginning lesson, which takes some time. Fear of Hell is something that cultivated properly motivates one to serve and love God, as opposed to an unreasonable fear that paralyzes and depresses, instead a proper virtuous fear motivates and does not paralyze but makes one rely on God more and more greatly.

I often read a good tract on Hell to motivate myself. I really treasure them, they’ve done a great deal of good for me to get moving when if they were not there I would selfishly rest on my laurels not thinking of how many souls so greatly need us to serve God as faithful sons and soldiers to save them from agonies and evils.

How strong is your will for God? It can always be greater. Because the object is infinite, and He can grant us greater and greater love of Himself. The saints are never satisfied. They know the more they love God, the more joy they have, the more of God them know in Heaven and in this life. There are lesser and greater in Heaven.

And on this earth… when we worry about how little we do… well… I understand, I go through that… We have to realize we are like little children, especially in the beginning though. We can do nothing without God. We begin small. Very small, because very likely we have lived in sin and still are only beginning to escape it. Thank God for beginnings!

I mean, you can seek self knowledge and self understanding to see how much your will can bear, see how long you can as it were, hold onto a burning brand before the pain makes you drop it, but even this is not a perfect test, as after all, you have to consider where your will would be at if you had taken care of a great many matters of virtue and improvement of it earlier.

We have trust in God’s perfect goodness despite our flawed wills. We have to trust that if we are sincerely and truly putting good effort in, He will give us what we need to proceed and grow in love. And this is a good trust, because it is His ardent desire for us, which He gave up Himself for. He is a benevolent God, a perfect God, but a benevolent God. 🙂

This is where I think, one has to consider mortal sin, and if one became the type of person who would never commit a mortal sin, not on any sudden impulse, or whatnot, then one would feel the better about matters generally. If one had a true horror of it, rather than any delectation in it. This can take some doing if one is male, but if one imagines the gates of Hell often enough, custody of the eyes is achievable as any sensual temptations become replaced by the horror of that, and women become holy to us rather than sources of pleasure of the senses, we become horrified at the thought.

Our true goal is to be the kind of person who never voluntarily commits a venial sin. This is a very worthy goal and the true goal of people who love God. 🙂

It’s important to remember that the very will to do good is a grace, and shows God’s presence with us. And that we need to pray for this will like beggars, because we need His strength to do everything – and we wouldn’t have it any other way, because that is what it means to live in Him. 🙂

Well, this has gone on a good deal. My apologies if I went a little off too.

‘That we may not be misled by self-love in the management of our affairs, let us not consider them as our own but as anothers’; partiality will thus give way to justice.’

St. Ignatius of Loyola

‘The humble realize that of themselves they are nothing, and that they stand in extreme need of help and grace of heaven; but the proud are convinced that they are full of grace and virtue. That is why God takes pleasure in showering His gifts on the former and in depriving the latter of His bounty.’

St. Augustine

‘I want to follow you and be like you, O my Jesus; I would rather be crucified with you than enjoy all the pleasures of this world without you.’

St. Bernadette Soubirous
Thank you so much. I have bookmarked your post because it is very encouraging and helpful.

Times like this I wish CAF had enabled the reputation system.
 
Oh seeker, I am sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I have reached that perfection, I am far from it, We all fall short of the Glory of God. All we can do is persevere in God’s gift of grace with his help and if and when we fall turn to him in sorrow and repentance, We have the gift of the Sacraments to help us to become what he created us to be . He loves us, he created us for himself and he will never give up on us no matter how much we feel we fall short. God bless you, Seeker, :)Carlan
with his love and peace always
Thank you also. I actually was replying to Shin in my post you quoted, so no reason to be sorry. 🙂 Your advice is encouraging though.
 
Thank you also. I actually was replying to Shin in my post you quoted, so no reason to be sorry. 🙂 Your advice is encouraging though.
:blush:Seeker, excuse me , oh dear, I do need to do a better job of this kind of thing, I see it now. I was missing some of Shin’s posts. He is a very holy person and I need to ponder his posts more. Anyway I thank God for you both and God bless you both.:)Carlan
 
:blush:Seeker, excuse me , oh dear, I do need to do a better job of this kind of thing, I see it now. I was missing some of Shin’s posts. He is a very holy person and I need to ponder his posts more. Anyway I thank God for you both and God bless you both.:)Carlan
That’s OK. 🙂

I agree, he does seem to be a very holy person. 🙂 I think I needed to hear that message. It rubbed me the wrong way at first until I stopped and thought about why I felt that way about it, and it was because it scared me a little. But I think it’s good. We all need some motivation. 🙂
 
I used to be Protestant and believed in OSAS. When I became Catholic, it was VERY difficult to let go… however, Jesus did talk a lot about persevering in faith and practicing it 🙂 the Bible doesn’t really support OSAS at all, when you put all the passages together, in context. catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

It was scary for me to give up OSAS cause I thought I’d be worried about my salvation all the time. What actually happened is different… the Church doesn’t teach that we should worry, but HOPE in God. 🙂 hope is a theological virtue. I hope in God’s mercy for my salvation. That takes away worry, but it’s not like OSAS… I realize that I can’t know for sure, but I cast myself on His mercy.

God bless
 
OSAS makes perfect sense. The better question is this: How many people who claim that they are saved *actually are *saved? As I have said before, the simple act of answering an altar call or mumbling the sinner’s prayer doesn’t save anyone. It’s just not that simple.

One must sincerely believe that they are a hopeless sinner and in desparate need of a savior. They must come to Christ with empty arms and ask him to take control of their lives, accept his gift of forgiveness and repent of their sins. This repentance means developing a new attitude of hatred toward sin. It’s a true change of heart, mind and soul. People who are truly saved grieve their sins they are not proud of them.

People don’t lose their salvation, it’s more likely that they were never saved in the first place.

:cool:
 
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