Clinical Death - Experiences of Hell

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I’m starting a holding thread of online videos that contain the personal experiences of people who died, arrived in a place that could only be described as Hell (not the bright Light many do) and then were brought back.

bibleprobe.com/hell2.htm
 
I thought no one could come out of Hell. How would they know its Hell in the first place?
 
I thought no one could come out of Hell. How would they know its Hell in the first place?
That video has three clinical death experiences on it. They each explain what they “saw” and “felt” and experienced.
 
I thought no one could come out of Hell. How would they know its Hell in the first place?
Theologically speaking, I believe you’re correct, which means these individuals didn’t actually die in the sense of passing the point of no return and didn’t actually find themselves in Hell (or anywhere else for that matter). It’s possible that these were incredibly vivid visions which they understood as being real.
 
Well, it may not be the ideal way to bring a person to conversion in my mind, but God works in mysterious ways…and I’m not Him.

But if I had such an experience, I would be extremely grateful that I didn’t permanently fall into the pit and had a second chance…whether it was real or the brain going haywire somehow, it doesn’t matter. God can use whatever He chooses to touch a person, and if it’s a NDE of whatever sort, so be it.

And I do believe in Hell.
 
I brought a dead guy back to life with my own hands, but he wasn’t able to talk or anything, he was still pretty much in a coma.

Side note-I can’t find “Hell” in the Youngs Literal Translation of the bible, what’s that mean? I have several theories I’ll elaborate on a thread about just that.
 
I’m starting a holding thread of online videos that contain the personal experiences of people who died, arrived in a place that could only be described as Hell (not the bright Light many do) and then were brought back.

bibleprobe.com/hell2.htm
Oh, oh, is this like the “recording from hell”-thing?
:rolleyes:

They were not in Hell. As another poster has pointed out: No one ever comes back from there - and it doesn’t even exist yet (and I do emphasize YET ).
On the other hand - scientists have made experiments in which they’ve recreated the “tunnel-vision”, “feeling of joy/fear”-thing. They speculate that it’s part of the process of the brain shutting down for good, but have not, naturally, been able to prove that theory.

I do, however, agree with the post right before this one: If this experience produces conversion, then HALLELUJAH! God really DOES work in ways we can’t imagine. But that doesn’t change that this was not real.
 
Oh, oh, is this like the “recording from hell”-thing?
:rolleyes:

They were not in Hell. As another poster has pointed out: No one ever comes back from there - and it doesn’t even exist yet (and I do emphasize YET ).
On the other hand - scientists have made experiments in which they’ve recreated the “tunnel-vision”, “feeling of joy/fear”-thing. They speculate that it’s part of the process of the brain shutting down for good, but have not, naturally, been able to prove that theory.

I do, however, agree with the post right before this one: If this experience produces conversion, then HALLELUJAH! God really DOES work in ways we can’t imagine. But that doesn’t change that this was not real.
I’m curious where you get the idea Hell hasn’t been created yet. Hell is the devil’s kingdom, and he certainly exists. Christ’s denunciation of the Pharisees contained the implication Hell existed, viz. “How can you hope to escape being condemned to Hell!”

Hell exists right now.
 
I’m curious where you get the idea Hell hasn’t been created yet. Hell is the devil’s kingdom, and he certainly exists.
NO!
Does the RCC even teach this? (I’m asking because I do not know)
The thought of satan having ANY kind of dominion is…as close to blasphemy as I think any Christian can come and still remain a Christian. Should God grace satan with power? Should satan rule in hell as God does in Heaven? Should God allow His dominion over ALL creation to be challenged permanently by having hell as a client kingdom ruled by a vassal king? Should God reward revolt with kingship?
The very thought is an abomination, and I find nothing at all in Scripture to support it. Quite the contrary - we see that hell is the place that has been prepared “for the devil and his angels”, and in the Book of Revelations, we see that satan is cast into the lake of fire (= Hell)
If this was correct, then we would have the problem that the atheists say we already do:
  • If God is omnipotent, but doesn’t destroy evil (= satan), then God is unjust, and, we could add, doesn’t do what He’s said he’d do.
Christ’s denunciation of the Pharisees contained the implication Hell existed, viz. “How can you hope to escape being condemned to Hell!”
Please explain what in that verse you think supports the idea of hell’s existence at present. Because I do not see it.
Hell exists right now.
You have yet to prove that from Scripture.
 
NO!
Does the RCC even teach this? (I’m asking because I do not know)
The thought of satan having ANY kind of dominion is…as close to blasphemy as I think any Christian can come and still remain a Christian. Should God grace satan with power? Should satan rule in hell as God does in Heaven? Should God allow His dominion over ALL creation to be challenged permanently by having hell as a client kingdom ruled by a vassal king? Should God reward revolt with kingship?
Luke 4:5-7 "Then the Devil led him up and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And the devil said to him, “To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

According to Luke the Devil has authority over all the world’s kingdoms.

2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment…"

God cast the demons into hell even before the fall of man in that case.

But obviously if the devil can get out and tempt us, and demons likewise, they are allowed a certain freedom of movement in and out of hell. On the other hand, without exception, when demons were driven out by Christ, they screamed. And they screamed because they knew they were going back to hell.
Good and evil are tools in God’s hands. It’s rather obvious that since evil and suffering are so common in this world, then they were included in God’s overall plan. I don’t like suffering and evil any more than you do, but God obviously thinks their existence to be worthwhile in the long run, as He moves towards the end of history, and the final revelation of His perfect plan.
I remember asking my old pastor why did God make such a creature as the devil. He thought for a minute, then just shrugged, and said, “Oh, he’s got a job to do I suppose”.
I’m not a Calvinist, but I suspect Calvin may have been right when he called the devil, “The minister of God’s wrath”.
I gave it to you above, when it points out that God cast the fallen angels into hell. And that happened a long time ago.
You’re mixing up hell with the lake of fire, which is not the same thing. That really is a final place of punishment, and for the devil there will be no respite, nor will he then be free to tempt anyone.
Finally the CCC’s take on Hell …
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbour or against ourselves; “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. (Matthew 25:31-46) To die in mortal sin wihtout repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death,
the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire”. The chief punishment of hell is separation from God, in whom along man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

As a final comment, the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. He started by apologising for his cruelty, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and disappeared. I still remember the scream nearly 32 years later. Something scared the hell out of him. I didn’t see what it was, but whatever it was it was truly terrifying.

And I’ve got good personal reasons for believing it was him and not a demonic deception.

Finally there was the vision of hell given to the 3 kids at Fatima by Mary. Link below.

bibleprobe.com/fatimavisionsofhell.htm
 
Theologically speaking, I believe you’re correct, which means these individuals didn’t actually die in the sense of passing the point of no return
True, but tautological. These persons returned, so they did not pass a point of “no return.”
and didn’t actually find themselves in Hell (or anywhere else for that matter). It’s possible that these were incredibly vivid visions which they understood as being real.
It’s also possible that being is possible at the boundary of human life with eternity, enabling persons to “see” what living human beings normally would not.

ICXC NIKA
 
Luke 4:5-7 "Then the Devil led him up and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And the devil said to him, “To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

According to Luke the Devil has authority over all the world’s kingdoms.
No; according to Luke, the devil claimed to have authority over all the world’s kingdoms. And he is, as we know, the father of lies.
2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment…"

God cast the demons into hell even before the fall of man in that case.
Even though the English version does say “hell”, it is not what is written in Greek. The Greek says “zofou” and “tartaråsas” (participle aorist of tartaroå) - which is more accurately translated in the CJB as " he put them in gloomy dungeons lower than Sh’ol to be held for judgment."
And do please note the captivity of the situation. So even if your interpretation was correct, and it meant “hell”, it would be my point, that hell is not the domain of satan and his demons, but their place of torment, that came out strengthened.
But obviously if the devil can get out and tempt us, and demons likewise, they are allowed a certain freedom of movement in and out of hell. On the other hand, without exception, when demons were driven out by Christ, they screamed. And they screamed because they knew they were going back to hell.
Fail, on account of the fact that the premise is a fail.
Good and evil are tools in God’s hands. It’s rather obvious that since evil and suffering are so common in this world, then they were included in God’s overall plan.
Then God is not just according to his own principles. Simple as that.
The fact that evil and suffering is common does not = that it’s part of God’s plan. God ALLOWS evil and suffering to exist - that is NOT the same as saying that he WILLS it.
I remember asking my old pastor why did God make such a creature as the devil. He thought for a minute, then just shrugged, and said, “Oh, he’s got a job to do I suppose”.
Again: This is more resembling of islam than of Christianity. Because in islam, satan is God’s puppet, God’s way of testing us. It is not satan who tempts us to sin, but God who does so, through satan. And it flies completely in the face of Scripture, which clearly emphasizes that God does not tempt anyone.
Satan was not created evil.
I’m not a Calvinist, but I suspect Calvin may have been right when he called the devil, “The minister of God’s wrath”.
Calvin said some real baloney from time to time (Luther did too, btw). Something isn’t necessarily true simply because Calvin said it.
I would, however, also like to have the context in which Calvin said that. Context is all-important.
I gave it to you above, when it points out that God cast the fallen angels into hell. And that happened a long time ago.
And I said that the text is not about Hell, but someplace else.
You’re mixing up hell with the lake of fire, which is not the same thing. That really is a final place of punishment, and for the devil there will be no respite, nor will he then be free to tempt anyone.
Hell IS the final place of punishment for satan, his demons, and the unbelievers. There IS no difference.
 
Finally the CCC’s take on Hell …

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbour or against ourselves; “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. (Matthew 25:31-46) To die in mortal sin wihtout repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire”. The chief punishment of hell is separation from God, in whom along man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
I accept this as the RCC’s view - in response to my question of what the RCC teaches. But I do not accept it as authority.
As a final comment, the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. He started by apologising for his cruelty, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and disappeared. I still remember the scream nearly 32 years later. Something scared the hell out of him. I didn’t see what it was, but whatever it was it was truly terrifying.
My condolences for your loss. And I’m sorry for that horrible nightmare that still remains with you more than 3 decades later. But please don’t ask me to accept THAT as proof of your claim.
And I’ve got good personal reasons for believing it was him and not a demonic deception.
I didn’t think “demonic deception” (though I’m not ruling out that possibility either, now that you’ve mentioned it), but an extremely realistic nightmare. I’ve had one or two of those too (though differently themed!), and they can seem so real that later, you begin to doubt whether or not it actually happened or not.
Finally there was the vision of hell given to the 3 kids at Fatima by Mary. Link below.

bibleprobe.com/fatimavisionsofhell.htm
Ah, yes. The “visions” at Fatima. I place very little value on these so-called visions. They are, in any case, to be measured against Scripture - and if they are contrary thereto, to be rejected.
Same with the alleged “messages” at Medjugorje, and the weak, impotent Jesus supposedly revealed there - who can say to…whatever the woman’s name is (can’t remember), who claims to receive messages from him…including a plea from Jesus for her to allow Him (!) to draw strength from her (!) when He’s weak…
 
That video has three clinical death experiences on it. They each explain what they “saw” and “felt” and experienced.
And as we all know; human feelings and experience is always in complete accordance with how things really are :rolleyes:
 
No; according to Luke, the devil claimed to have authority over all the world’s kingdoms. And he is, as we know, the father of lies.

The governments of this world routinely argue for the destruction of unborn children, in many cases encourage the persecution of Christians, advocate the rights of pornographers etc, often promote injustice, some are corrupt, spend far more on the military than on helping others, routinely go to war, and so on. Your own nation, the US, permitted slavery not all that long ago.

Where would you say this comes from … God?

Even though the English version does say “hell”, it is not what is written in Greek. The Greek says “zofou” and “tartaråsas”

Eleven of the twelve references to “Gehenna”, a place where the fires never went out, were stated by Christ.

And do please note the captivity of the situation. So even if your interpretation was correct, and it meant “hell”,

Prisons are places of captivity. But even in prison you will find a pecking order. There will be the untouchables, men with others who support them in their ruthlessness. I would assume Hell would have a similar hierarchy, with captive human souls at the bottom.

Who are going to be the warders in this spiritual prison? Good angels, having to suffocate in an atmosphere of absolute evil? I don’t think so. It would be a prison where the inmates are their own jailers, and absolutely depraved.

God ALLOWS evil and suffering to exist - that is NOT the same as saying that he WILLS it.

If there’s a war going on and if I’ve got the power to step in and stop it, but refuse to do so despite the immense cruelty and suffering, by claiming it serves my purpose, what’s the difference? Particularly if I knew and expected it to happen, and even planned for it to happen.

And it flies completely in the face of Scripture, which clearly emphasizes that God does not tempt anyone.

Satan was not created evil.

No, but God knew he would fall. And God definitely **allowed **Satan to tempt the original parents in the Garden of Eden, knowing full well the consequences if they fell. And we don’t know how long God allowed this to occur. Otherwise you’ve got a God who doesn’t know what is going on right under His nose.

Calvin said some real baloney from time to time (Luther did too, btw). Something isn’t necessarily true simply because Calvin said it.

Ditto for Luther. Luther said a lot of baloney. Heaps of it. He had a reputation for being foul mouthed. Read up on some of the stuff he said about women for example. I’ll refer you to a booklet, “Martin Luther - Adolf Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor” by Peter Wiener.

Link provided.

tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.html

I would, however, also like to have the context in which Calvin said that. Context is all-important.

From the “Institutes” (lifted off the web) …

“We, therefore, hold that there are two methods in which God may so act. When his light is taken away, nothing remains but blindness and darkness: when his Spirit is taken away, our hearts become hard as stones: when his guidance is withdrawn, we immediately turn from the right path: and hence he is properly said to incline, harden, and blind those whom he deprives of the faculty of seeing, obeying, and rightly executing. The second method, which comes much nearer to the exact meaning of the words, is when executing his judgments by Satan as the minister of his anger, God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.”

Hell IS the final place of punishment for satan, his demons, and the unbelievers. There IS no difference.
.

The Lake of Fire gets its own reference all by itself in Revelation. It is not Hell.

Hell exists now. As I said, Mary turned up at Fatima, with 2 miracles as proof (the spinning dancing sun, and the abrupt drying of clothes and ground of the onlookers after days of rain, requiring the equivalent energy of a 2 megaton explosion), and showed the 3 children the vision of Hell, with 70,000 witnesses.

You’ll note by the way when Mary does show up, it is in keeping with Christ’s comment that “I thank you Father, that you have revealed these things to children (ie. the simple), and hidden them from the wise and the learned.”

Lourdes 1858 - nearly illiterate shepherd girl named Bernadette Soubirous, now canonised, and whose incorrupt body can be seen. Many documented miraculous healings.

Fatima 1973 - 3 nearly illiterate children in a backwoods Portuguese village. With 2 major miracles.

Akita 1973 - Sister Sasagawa, deaf elderly nun. Weeping statue, smell of roses, bleeding hands.

And who do you think the woman in Genesis is? “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your offspring and hers; he will strike at your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Who was the offspring? Christ of course.

Who was the ‘woman’? Mary of course.

What did Christ call Mary at the Wedding of Cana, when by challenging her son to perform his first miracle, she also started Him on his public ministry and later death and resurrection, to finally destroy the devil’s works?

“Woman.”

Who’s the "woman’ in the “portent in heaven” in Revelation 12?

Mary. And she’s been appearing over the last couple of centuries in particular, with miracles to boot, and with warnings. And one of them was the vision of hell, at Fatima.

Hence it already exists.

And there’s a lot of trouble coming too, by the sound of it. And it lines up with Scripture.
 
Correction - I made an error in my last post. “Fatima 1973” should have read “Fatima 1917”.
 
Has the Church ruled that any of these are “worthy of belief”?

If not, I would stay away from them, the same for any apparition that has not been approved.
 
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