Close Baptist friends vs. MY Catholic faith

[Jason_1977]

OK…I have some fundamental baptist friends. I’m part of their family practically. THey are trying to evangelize me & basically feel that Rome is false Doctrine. I defended my faith to the hilt, BUT, there is also this woman that wants to date me & she’s the perfect woman for any man, great qualities, etc. I have a feeling in the end, she wont be able to date a catholic. I have a feeling my best friends want me to switch to being baptist. I have debated & defended the faith w. the woman that wants to date me, I have defended the faith w. my friend & his wife.

I need help in basically figuring out how to not let the catholic/baptist thing be an issue. We’re great friends, we pray before we eat, we’re conservative, we’re Christians to the hilt, ALL of us are bible saavy,

Essentially, they dont understand the concept of venial sin & mortal sin, they think sin is sin. This is one thing I DID have a tough time explaining. this was a 5 hour discussion at the dining room table. THEY are just wanting to make sure that what I’m doing brings me closer to the bible & God.

ALSO, how do you explain the reasoning behind keeping the catholic books? THEY feel since the Jews got rid of Tobit, Maccabees, etc…they must’ve had a good reason. I told them, well, the church kept them because WE’RE NOT JEWISH!!! What else can I say? HEEEELP!!!

 

[Catholic1954]

We did not “keep” the Catholic books in the bible. The Protestant Reformation threw them out. The Jews threw out their books because they were written in Greek not Hebrew. You should read “Where We Got The Bible” by The Right Rev. Henry G. Graham. He is a Prostesant minister and does a pretty good job explaining where we got the the Bible. I would be very careful about starting a relationship with a girl who does not approve of Catholicism, or worse thinks she can convert YOU to the Baptist Church.

 

[kristanl]

Most of my friends are baptist as well. A lot of them believe Sola Scriptura and OSAS. Therefore, it is hard in my opinion to get them to think outside the box. I know sometimes you WANT to defend your faith especially when they are attacking your faith. I would suggest buying all of the apologetic books you see on the right side of this website called beginning apologetics. I also am in a defending the faith class- and they say that you really need to defend the authority first… Popes, what our priests do etc.

About the books in the bible- Jesus and the apostles used the SAME bible we used. The apostles wrote in Greek- quoted some of those SEVEN books… They preached those books, because most people were Gentiles-speaking Greek! The Jews removed these books because they didnt want to be like the “Christians”. I dont have a source for this because I’m typing it up, but look under faithfacts here. If you cant find it, ill try and source it for you tomorrow!

 

[polishmax]

An excellent source of research on the Bible issue would be “why catholic bibles are bigger” by Gary Michuta. As far as the lady friend. stay strong. Discuss things you have in common at first till you know another, there will be a time however that the differences will need to reconciled or accepted, remember " with gentleness and reverence" 1 peter 3:16. Also check out this video on you tube, its part of a four part series. A women talks about her experience being married to a catholic, while she herself was a protestant. Also don’t forget you have a lot of support here from catholic answers. We’re a big family.

 

[polishmax]

Sorry forget the url link for that video. youtube.com/watch?v=dnjvvofQtdo&feature=related

 

[bpbasilphx]

\The Jews threw out their books because they were written in Greek not Hebrew.\

**This is not true.

They existed at the time the LXX was translated from Hebrew into Greek some 2 centuries before Christ. Since everything had to be copied by hand, what was the point in making up stuff to bind up with it?

Hebrew versions of these books have been found, in whole or on part. So they DID exist in Hebrew.

**

 

[rep140]

Kristani,

Be careful saying that Jesus used all the books. The canon of the Hebrew bible wasn’t decided until some time in the 2nd century.

Luther did not want to include the 7 books in Greek, but eventually did include them after the NT. In the 19th century they were removed from Protestant bibles. One reason Luther and other Protestants didn’t want them was theological. Maccabees (sp?) was particularly troublesome because it speaks of praying for the dead which really smacks of purgatory; a concept unique to Catholicism.

The Jews in Christ’s time believed that they were God’s chosen people. They were the chosen because they belonged to the 12 tribes of Israel. Catholic teaching is similar. Catholics have a one to one relationship with Jesus, but we also believe in the teachings of a Church that Christ founded and was unified until the Reformation.

A Baptist friend moved and told me that his family went to several churches then found one with the fellowship they were most comfortable with. He joined because they had a charismatic minister and the people were friendly. What happens if the minister leaves?
Where is there something transcendent beyond the pastor and friendly people? Maybe it works for him, but not for me.

Having said all this, I’m happy for anyone who finds Christ be it in whatever faith tradition. I’m on an evangalization group in our parish. We try to make the faith of churchgoing Catholics stronger, get inactive Catholics back to the faith, and offer a place to the unchurched. We specifically do not target people who are faithful to Christ in their tradition. I would ask your friends to treat you in the same manner. You and the lady friend should concentrate on what unites you instead of what divides you. If she can not accept your Catholicism you may not want to go further with her. She does not respect your beliefs so she may not understand how you feel about other things.

 

[NewCatholic1207]

\The Jews threw out their books because they were written in Greek not Hebrew.\

Hebrew versions of these books have been found, in whole or on part. So they DID exist in Hebrew

This is very true. Not to mention the fact that the onus should be on the Protestant to justify why these books were unquestioningly accepted from the acceptance of the canon to the 1600s. On top of that, it should be noted that Luther wanted to throw out MORE books than that, some New Testament as well.

 

[Jason_1977]

SO, I know that the Council of Trent decided that it was inspired, etc, I’m trying to come up w. something definitive as to why we didn’t remove the books when the Jews did. If you can provide a source, then I’d be very excited to use it.

How do I explain the differences between Venial & mortal sin to someone who says sin is sin?

 

[Jason_1977]

We did not “keep” the Catholic books in the bible. The Protestant Reformation threw them out. The Jews threw out their books because they were written in Greek not Hebrew. You should read “Where We Got The Bible” by The Right Rev. Henry G. Graham. He is a Prostesant minister and does a pretty good job explaining where we got the the Bible. I would be very careful about starting a relationship with a girl who does not approve of Catholicism, or worse thinks she can convert YOU to the Baptist Church.

But the Jews also removed them from the Torah as well, did they not?
I’m interested in why the JEWS removed them…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

OK…I have some fundamental baptist friends. I’m part of their family practically. THey are trying to evangelize me & basically feel that Rome is false Doctrine. I defended my faith to the hilt, BUT, there is also this woman that wants to date me & she’s the perfect woman for any man, great qualities, etc. I have a feeling in the end, she wont be able to date a catholic. I have a feeling my best friends want me to switch to being baptist. I have debated & defended the faith w. the woman that wants to date me, I have defended the faith w. my friend & his wife.

I need help in basically figuring out how to not let the catholic/baptist thing be an issue. We’re great friends, we pray before we eat, we’re conservative, we’re Christians to the hilt, ALL of us are bible saavy,

Essentially, they dont understand the concept of venial sin & mortal sin, they think sin is sin. This is one thing I DID have a tough time explaining. this was a 5 hour discussion at the dining room table. THEY are just wanting to make sure that what I’m doing brings me closer to the bible & God.

ALSO, how do you explain the reasoning behind keeping the catholic books? THEY feel since the Jews got rid of Tobit, Maccabees, etc…they must’ve had a good reason. I told them, well, the church kept them because WE’RE NOT JEWISH!!! What else can I say? HEEEELP!!!

The reason is that the Jews wanted to Separate themselves FROM the Christians. Their Scripture Canon is an Anti-Christain canon! Why do they insist on using the anti-Christian Canon

How much closer can you get to God outside of participating in Mass and being united to the Heavenly Divine Liturgy (Rev) and receiving Christ Himself in Holy Communion! (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity)

 

[Tomb54]

SO, I know that the Council of Trent decided that it was inspired, etc, I’m trying to come up w. something definitive as to why we didn’t remove the books when the Jews did. If you can provide a source, then I’d be very excited to use it.

How do I explain the differences between Venial & mortal sin to someone who says sin is sin?

The support for this is in the Bible so if they are real Sola Scriptura (which I find most Protestants aren’t) Statement about the deadly sins and it mentions them so what are the others ones they don’t mention? Somewhere else it says something about do wrong but not losing your salvation (think this is argument for purgatory and levels of sin. It would take me time to find them since I am like most Catholics – know the bible but not location of every quote. The one thing I like to use also to support the Catholic Church is Malachi were it says that in the time of the Gentiles they will offer a Pure offering to the Father. I want to know if they think the are the right religion where is their Pure offering to the Father as the bible says they will be doing? One way to defend the faith is to question theirs (I find they will stop trying to convert you if you are good at this) Ask why they do not believe what the bible says and then ask about venial sin and mortal sin based on the verses that clearly state there are levels in sin. I had one friend like this and after he tried to convert me his minister told him I was saved and to stop trying to save me and do not talk religion to me. I think that was kind of harsh though as I like to civilly talk about it.
Also learn about the earliest ECFs and use some of their writings to support the Catholic position and what the early Christian church believed.

Who knows maybe God will use you to bring them Home to the Catholic Church.

 

[fdesales]

\The Jews threw out their books because they were written in Greek not Hebrew.\

**This is not true.

They existed at the time the LXX was translated from Hebrew into Greek some 2 centuries before Christ. Since everything had to be copied by hand, what was the point in making up stuff to bind up with it?

Hebrew versions of these books have been found, in whole or on part. So they DID exist in Hebrew.

**

I think the original poster’s point is valid, but he didn’t express it well - the Jews threw out the books we call the OT Deuterocanonicals because they were not ORIGINALLY written in Hebrew and were found only in the Septuagint. The Jews did not care for some of the interpretations found only in the Septuagint, such as Is 7:14. Thus, vs. Christian interpretions, they ruled the Septuagint as writings in error. As such, the entire LXX was deemed “profane” by Jews.

Also, the “LXX” was not translated from Hebrew to Greek. The Septuagint (LXX) is the RESULT of taking “Scriptures”, according to the Alexandrian community, and putting them into one codex. “LXX” refers to the so-called 70 interpreters who took available writings and translated them into Greek. These men included the works of Wisdom, Tobit, etc., which are thought not to have been originally written in Hebrew, but Chaldean or Greek.

Regards

 

[fdesales]

Essentially, they dont understand the concept of venial sin & mortal sin, they think sin is sin. This is one thing I DID have a tough time explaining. this was a 5 hour discussion at the dining room table. THEY are just wanting to make sure that what I’m doing brings me closer to the bible & God.

The reason for the distinction is the Sacrament of Confession. Mortal sins destroy our relationship with God. Venial sin wounds it. The same analogy can be made in the marital life. Some activities are offensive to the other spouse, but do not destroy the relationship, while others do - and absolutely require reconciliation.

ALSO, how do you explain the reasoning behind keeping the catholic books? THEY feel since the Jews got rid of Tobit, Maccabees, etc…they must’ve had a good reason. I told them, well, the church kept them because WE’RE NOT JEWISH!!! What else can I say? HEEEELP!!!

This is easy. The Jews threw out the Gospels at the same “council” they threw out the OT Deuterocanonicals found in the Septuagint. Ask your friends if they also intend on following the Jewish example and toss out the Gospel of Mark, Matthew, John, and Luke - because they are “not Jewish”??? Your friends need to be consistent.

Regards

 

[crazzeto]

With regard to this woman, and the “baptist / catholic” think being an issue… Is that connection I’m making appropriate? If so, then I’m afraid to say that if she is staunch in her position then it is just going to be an issue. One, that perhaps is best avoided. I think that if you start dating this girl, there’s a good chance you might end up giving up on your Catholic faith to be with this girl.

Now not that I think there’s anything wrong with believing the faith you were brought up in, and not that I believe baptist don’t have the same oppertunity to be saved (though at a disadvantage). But ultimatly, you know the fullness of the truth. Do you want to risk throwing that away over the love of this one girl? There are, in fact other women out there. I would suggest finding one who shares your beliefs (preferably), or is at least open to them, rather than believing you’re going to hell and that it is her duty to do whatever it takes to convert you from your “evil catholic ways”.

Also, I would suggest to you (as another poster did) reading “Where we got the bible” by Henery Grahm, he actually converted to the Catholic faith… And i have a distinct feeling he did so just prior, or was just about to around the time he wrote this book. You can tell he’s pretty done with Protistants and their beliefs reading the book. But that isn’t why I want you reading it, I want you reading it because it is full of accurate information about how the modern bible came into being. As how the story of how the bible was perserved has altered Protistant doctrines in some unusual ways. For instance it explains why protistants (mistakenly) think “for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. For ever and ever” is a part of the Lords prayer, when it does not. It has to do with a copy error in their early versions of the bible.

 

[Jason_1977]

OOOOOHHHH.>>>>I just discovered the council of Jamnia…veryyyyyyy in–teresting!!!

Essentially, some rabbis, w. the permission of Rome, met & tossed scripture back & forth & essentially tossed out books from their scripture that had anything remotely concerning Christian teachings because the Diaspora (?) or greek christians were using that scripture to convert the greek jews! & THAT drove the judaic heirarchy insane…oooooh…I see said the blind man!!! Br. RICH, right on, my sentiments exactly, MY question is how to get them to question their faith?

I have placed the burden of DISproof on THEM. They are VERY fundamental. Homeschooled, baptist, the band leads the service, I mean, sing a few hymns, then a motivational speaker comes out. THAT didn’t feel like worship to me. For their 45 minute homily, he jumped all over scripture to prove a point about keeping your priorities in order instead of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even a priest may tie in Isaiah or Job to a Homily, but he wont say, ok, now turn to luke chapter 1…or turn to Ezekiel Ch. 4…all over the place. It was eisegesis to the max! (I SEE JESUS!) lol

 

[fdesales]

OOOOOHHHH.>>>>I just discovered the council of Jamnia…veryyyyyyy in–teresting!!!

Essentially, some rabbis, w. the permission of Rome, met & tossed scripture back & forth & essentially tossed out books from their scripture that had anything remotely concerning Christian teachings because the Diaspora (?) or greek christians were using that scripture to convert the greek jews! & THAT drove the judaic heirarchy insane…oooooh…I see said the blind man!!! Br. RICH, right on, my sentiments exactly, MY question is how to get them to question their faith?

Jason,

Don’t overplay the “Council of Jamnia”. Many ancient scholars do not even agree if there was an AUTHORITATIVE council, as we Catholics would define it. The idea that the Jews had the same infrastructure as Rome of the 21st century will not fly. What IS clear is that the Jews did ban the usage of the Septuagint and the so-called Christian Gospels, with pain of removal from the synagogue. However, whether Jamnia had any authority on the content of the Scriptures is questionable, as Esther, for example, was STILL discussed a hundred years later on its acceptance into a Jewish canon…

Rome did not “grant permission”, as Rome was clearly not the “Rome” we look at in the first century, in ecclesiastical power. Again, don’t overplay this. The point is that the Jews DEFINITIVELY cast the Gospels OUT, calling them profane and not Scriptural. As such, it is faulty to argue “I will disregard the OT Deuterocanonicals because the Jews did not accept them”.

Then they must also not accept the Gospels… No Baptist will allow himself to remain in the position. The argument will fall apart very simply without having to list the Jewish Hebrew Scriptures vs. the Septuagint Scriptures.

Another thing to ask them (that many Catholics overlook) is

“Why do you accept the NT Deuterocanonicals, such as Hebrews, James, and Revelation, BUT not the OT Deuterocanonicals, such as Tobit and Judith. The same councils of the Church accepted them as ONE in the fourth century. I have yet to receive a quality answer on this one….”

Ironically, Martin Luther tried to be consistent, as he DID desire to remove James and Revelation and other NT Deuterocanonicals from Christian Scriptures. Fortunately, Protestants did not totally lose their sense of Tradition, and kept these NT Deuterocanonicals. However, the question remains - “WHY one but not the other”?

Clearly, the answer is theologically driven (purgatory, angels, prayers for the sake of the dead).

I have placed the burden of DISproof on THEM. They are VERY fundamental. Homeschooled, baptist, the band leads the service, I mean, sing a few hymns, then a motivational speaker comes out. THAT didn’t feel like worship to me. For their 45 minute homily, he jumped all over scripture to prove a point about keeping your priorities in order instead of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even a priest may tie in Isaiah or Job to a Homily, but he wont say, ok, now turn to luke chapter 1…or turn to Ezekiel Ch. 4…all over the place. It was eisegesis to the max! (I SEE JESUS!) lol

This is the problem with our separated brothers. “Worship” is centered upon Bible study, rather than offering praise and thanksgiving to God, offering our sacrifice to God through this communal gathering in the name of God. Whether the “Bible Study” is even worthwhile is debatable, since it depends upon the subject. If it is on giving money to the preacher, clearly this will not be of much value to the congregation’s walk in the following week…

Regards

 

[Jason_1977]

thanx!!!

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

OOOOOHHHH.>>>>I just discovered the council of Jamnia…veryyyyyyy in–teresting!!!

Essentially, some rabbis, w. the permission of Rome, met & tossed scripture back & forth & essentially tossed out books from their scripture that had anything remotely concerning Christian teachings because the Diaspora (?) or greek christians were using that scripture to convert the greek jews! & THAT drove the judaic heirarchy insane…oooooh…I see said the blind man!!! Br. RICH, right on, my sentiments exactly, MY question is how to get them to question their faith?

I have placed the burden of DISproof on THEM. They are VERY fundamental. Homeschooled, baptist, the band leads the service, I mean, sing a few hymns, then a motivational speaker comes out. THAT didn’t feel like worship to me. For their 45 minute homily, he jumped all over scripture to prove a point about keeping your priorities in order instead of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even a priest may tie in Isaiah or Job to a Homily, but he wont say, ok, now turn to luke chapter 1…or turn to Ezekiel Ch. 4…all over the place. It was eisegesis to the max! (I SEE JESUS!) lol

It’s not about questioning their faith, but that they only have a small part of the picture.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Jason,

Don’t overplay the “Council of Jamnia”. Many ancient scholars do not even agree if there was an AUTHORITATIVE council, as we Catholics would define it. The idea that the Jews had the same infrastructure as Rome of the 21st century will not fly. What IS clear is that the Jews did ban the usage of the Septuagint and the so-called Christian Gospels, with pain of removal from the synagogue. However, whether Jamnia had any authority on the content of the Scriptures is questionable, as Esther, for example, was STILL discussed a hundred years later on its acceptance into a Jewish canon…

Rome did not “grant permission”, as Rome was clearly not the “Rome” we look at in the first century, in ecclesiastical power. Again, don’t overplay this. The point is that the Jews DEFINITIVELY cast the Gospels OUT, calling them profane and not Scriptural. As such, it is faulty to argue “I will disregard the OT Deuterocanonicals because the Jews did not accept them”.

Then they must also not accept the Gospels… No Baptist will allow himself to remain in the position. The argument will fall apart very simply without having to list the Jewish Hebrew Scriptures vs. the Septuagint Scriptures.

Another thing to ask them (that many Catholics overlook) is

“Why do you accept the NT Deuterocanonicals, such as Hebrews, James, and Revelation, BUT not the OT Deuterocanonicals, such as Tobit and Judith. The same councils of the Church accepted them as ONE in the fourth century. I have yet to receive a quality answer on this one.…”

Ironically, Martin Luther tried to be consistent, as he DID desire to remove James and Revelation and other NT Deuterocanonicals from Christian Scriptures. Fortunately, Protestants did not totally lose their sense of Tradition, and kept these NT Deuterocanonicals. However, the question remains - “WHY one but not the other”?

Clearly, the answer is theologically driven (purgatory, angels, prayers for the sake of the dead).

This is the problem with our separated brothers. “Worship” is centered upon Bible study, rather than offering praise and thanksgiving to God, offering our sacrifice to God through this communal gathering in the name of God. Whether the “Bible Study” is even worthwhile is debatable, since it depends upon the subject. If it is on giving money to the preacher, clearly this will not be of much value to the congregation’s walk in the following week…

Regards

The Jews had nothing to do with the removal of the Gospels. The extra books found in the Alexandrian canon, but not in the Palestinian canon are call the Apocrypha by the Protestants.