"Closed minded Catholic"

[Sparticus]

I have two very close friends who stridently believe we are in the end times rapture. Please note they are not Catholic and attend churches such as Calvary Church and Willow Creek. It is to the point where every market dip, dollar decline, earthquake, natural disaster, and war they hear of they begin to real off Bible verses and save up on 3 months supply of rice and head out to buy a electric generators. (I am not kidding here).

I told them that I just don’t see the end times based upon current events portrayed in the media and dips in the NASDAQ. For every generation has interpreted many signs throughout history. I also have asked them to stop listening certain TV/radio hosts and internet personalities. (Take your guess as to whom they are as I wish not to mention for the sake of this forum).

One has accused me of being a “closed minded Catholic”.

So, I invited him to a Scott Hahn lecture on the topic to see if he can back up his accusation.
We’ll see if he accepts.

Any other advise would be great to read.

 

[PatrickSebast]

Why are they buying generators? Do they think they will magically survive the end times and need electricity? What about being raptured, most protestants believe in the rapture. Is a generator going to help them with that?

On a more serious note, I can relate to this. I attended a public university and most of my faith-based groups consisted primarily of protestants who did the same thing. I was visiting with some recently and they even started talking about how the earthquake in Japan was a definite sign, especially after being so close in time to the one in Haiti. Of course when I told them that the number of earthquakes haven’t increased and showed them a graph of historical recorded earthquake activity they simply excused it by saying “Yeah, but this one was in Japan and it was REALLY bad!” :banghead:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

First, I suggest you surrender to the fact that it is neither your job, nor your capability, to “change” the other people… That’s God job. Our job is to feed His sheep.

The more you try to convince them with words, the more the defensive shield will raise up and you’ll be at loggerheads.

So let them think what they want. Listen to them, as if they were Jesus Himself (whatsoever you do, and all). Don’t agree with them, but no need to provoke them. If you listen to them, in psychology class they told me that they automatically think you’re smarter because of it, and are more likely to pay attention to you when it’s your time to speak.

These false beliefs are their sacred cows, their security blankets. Don’t try to go in and burn them or snatch them away, or you’ll just get a cacophony of whining babies, screaming for their security blanket that is their wrong belief system they’re clinging to. If you try to pry them loose, they cling harder. So don’t attack their beliefs, hit them at a deeper level that their beliefs are incapable of stopping – show them true love. They’ve probably never experienced true Christian love, or there’s no way they could resist embracing Jesus, or at least doing the things He taught.

So let them carry their security blankets and crutches, and keep them near while they are at the table. I want my guests to feel comfortable, so why not let them keep their clingy items just a little longer, because you’re going to show them something so great that they might just drop their blankets and stare at the new thing, and maybe go toward the new thing and forget all about the blanket they left behind, next to the table. Sometimes you don’t know what will capture their attention, so you try different things until one works.
Matt 13:24-30:

He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Alan

 

[JRKH]

I think you are doing fine. As pointed out, you could show them things that demonstrate that disasters are not increasing statisitcally - but it likely will do little good.
The best thing you can do is to live a good Christian Life.
Explain to them how you are not concerned about “end times” for two reasons.
First, because Christ told you NOT to worry, and you are a follower of Christ…and
Second, because you cannot do anything about these events that you are not already doing…
Then explain that, you are already praying, “thy Kingdom come…”, you have already placed your faith and trust in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, you are already involved in works of mercy, the relief of suffering etc. You seek to deepen and strengthen your faith through participation in the sacramental life etc…
By doing these things, you are already prepared for the “last days” and have no need to seek after and interpret every natural or man made calamity. Nor do you feel anxious about them or the need to “store up worldly treasure” (like rice and generators).
Rice will not save…Generators will not save…Only doing the Will of the Father in Heaven will save…

Peace
James

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Then explain that, you are already praying, “thy Kingdom come…”, you have already placed your faith and trust in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, you are already involved in works of mercy, the relief of suffering etc. You seek to deepen and strengthen your faith through participation in the sacramental life etc…
By doing these things, you are already prepared for the “last days” and have no need to seek after and interpret every natural or man made calamity. Nor do you feel anxious about them or the need to “store up worldly treasure” (like rice and generators).
Rice will not save…Generators will not save…Only doing the Will of the Father in Heaven will save…

 

[DianaCC]

Any other advise would be great to read.

If you’re up for it, try some snappy comebacks.

• Really? Then our prayers are working. You know that line “thy kingdom come” from the Lord’s Prayer? Yeah we pray that all the time, morning and evening, six times in the Rosary and right in the middle of our church services every single day around the world. I mean, if any prayer is infallibly inspired by the Word of God himself, this would be the one, and we pray it all the time. How come you people don’t?
• All those earthquakes and stuff don’t bother us. We have Mary praying for us now and when we die. How come you people don’t?
• And what’s with the rice and generators? You believe you’re all going to be raptured anyway, don’t you? Or do you know something I don’t?
• Speaking of, did you know Mary was raptured as a foreshadowing of what would happen to us, just like Jesus was resurrected as a foreshadowing? That’s why we have earthly remains of all those dead saints on display in golden cases and embedded in all our altars all over the world, fingers and skulls and whole corpses, but not so much as a tooth from the biggest saint of all. You haven’t found her body, have you?
• But anyway, yeah I guess we’re closed-minded. But it’s really quiet inside our heads. Hard to hear the good shepherd’s voice otherwise, don’t you think?
• Oh and speaking of, your ears look red. Are they itching? They look itchy. No offense.
• Anyway I’ve been reading on the Internet about end-times prophecies, and you know what? Every date that has been set until now has been wrong. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
• Well I need to get going. I’m meeting another Catholic friend of mine for some paperwork. He’s a grain wholesaler and I have an equipment rental business and we just formed an LLC together. Come visit our new location in Hoffman Estates! Here’s our card. How do you like the fish logo?

 

[WFS5801]

I have two very close friends who stridently believe we are in the end times rapture. Please note they are not Catholic and attend churches such as Calvary Church and Willow Creek. It is to the point where every market dip, dollar decline, earthquake, natural disaster, and war they hear of they begin to real off Bible verses and save up on 3 months supply of rice and head out to buy a electric generators. (I am not kidding here).

I’ve known people like this and it has always baffled me. So… you’re the only one with lights and food… and everyone else is starving? First, isn’t it your Christian duty to help them? And second, what makes you think they aren’t going to see that you have food and power and take it away from you?

But my main argument is this. If you’re in a state of grace you’re ready for anything – if not, you’re ready for nothing. No matter how many preparations you’ve made. You’ve got to get your priorities straight and try to live each day like it’s your last – because it might be, disaster or not.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I would ask them this.

If I were to believe in the rapture, how would that change what I’m supposed do in in order to be an instrument of the Lord? What should I do differently than I do now, when I don’t believe in the rapture?

To obey which of Jesus’s commands or teachings, do we even need to know whether there is a rapture?

Fine, then, you believe in the rapture if you want. Personally I have some problems with it, but we both know what we should do to feed His sheep and love God and neighbor.

IOW, I consider it an intellectual debate of no real consequence in terms of decision making, or dare I say, salvation? Let them think stupid things, unless it’s driving destructive behavior. Show them unconditional love, though, even though they know you disagree, and you will be showing the Jesus’s smiling face and comforting hand.

Alan

 

[Sparticus]

Sparticus here…Wow, all this advise is incredible. A mighty fine thanks to all.
Well the latest on the situation is that one friend has challenged me to prove him wrong! The last thing I want to do is start throwing out Bible verses. Which is exactly what he wants. To prove how superior his “Starbucks” church is.

My reply was that I am not in the business of proving others wrong. They seem capable of doing that themselves without my help. “Plus the world really doesn’t my interpretation of the Bible. We can be both be passionate about our beliefs. Jesus is going to save the world. I’ll just step out of the way and not strap myself to end times speculation.” I’ll leave that to the “experts”. I’m sure we have two different angles but somehow I believe they will converge on the same point.

This is frustrating because these are grown adults into their late forties and early fifties. They used to be Catholic and have cool cars like a GTO/Lemans. - Not that that really has anything to do with it but I want to illustrate how they have changed. It is all they talk about. These churches they attend are they really that distorted?

 

[Ignatius]

I have two very close friends who stridently believe we are in the end times rapture. Please note they are not Catholic and attend churches such as Calvary Church and Willow Creek. It is to the point where every market dip, dollar decline, earthquake, natural disaster, and war they hear of they begin to real off Bible verses and save up on 3 months supply of rice and head out to buy a electric generators. (I am not kidding here).

I told them that I just don’t see the end times based upon current events portrayed in the media and dips in the NASDAQ. For every generation has interpreted many signs throughout history. I also have asked them to stop listening certain TV/radio hosts and internet personalities. (Take your guess as to whom they are as I wish not to mention for the sake of this forum).

One has accused me of being a “closed minded Catholic”.

Maybe you are being closed minded; after all we really don’t know ‘the day nor the hour’. It could very well be the end times.
The point I would emphasize is that it is a virtual certainty that (if you’re over 40) your personal end time will be within the next 5 decades so you need to be prepared to meet God face to face.

 

[thequeen]

usually when someone trys to warn me about end times the rapture and all that stuff i let it go in one ear and out the other then i go read the Catholic Catechism and scripture and find out what the Church teaches The Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ

 

[JRKH]

Sparticus here…Wow, all this advise is incredible. A mighty fine thanks to all.
Well the latest on the situation is that one friend has challenged me to prove him wrong! The last thing I want to do is start throwing out Bible verses. Which is exactly what he wants. To prove how superior his “Starbucks” church is.

What does he want you to prove him wrong on? That these events are no more a portent of end times than other historical events? Bible verses aren’t going to do that. you are wise to satay away from such tripe.

My reply was that I am not in the business of proving others wrong. They seem capable of doing that themselves without my help. “Plus the world really doesn’t my interpretation of the Bible. We can be both be passionate about our beliefs. Jesus is going to save the world. I’ll just step out of the way and not strap myself to end times speculation.” I’ll leave that to the “experts”. I’m sure we have two different angles but somehow I believe they will converge on the same point.

Well done - and the bottom line is that none of their speculation will hurry the day by one iota, nor will their speculation make them any better prepared. (oh- sorry except for the rice and generators…I forgot)

This is frustrating because these are grown adults into their late forties and early fifties. They used to be Catholic and have cool cars like a GTO/Lemans. - Not that that really has anything to do with it but I want to illustrate how they have changed. It is all they talk about. These churches they attend are they really that distorted?

It takes all kinds…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I’ve known people like this and it has always baffled me. So… you’re the only one with lights and food… and everyone else is starving? First, isn’t it your Christian duty to help them? And second, what makes you think they aren’t going to see that you have food and power and take it away from you?

These are great points. But you can bet they would fall on “deaf ears”.

But my main argument is this. If you’re in a state of grace you’re ready for anything – if not, you’re ready for nothing. No matter how many preparations you’ve made. You’ve got to get your priorities straight and try to live each day like it’s your last – because it might be, disaster or not.

:clapping:

Peace
James

 

[DavidFilmer]

C.S. Lewis (who was not a Catholic) wisely pointed out that:

The purpose of having an open mind is to develop a closed mind.

After all, once we consider the evidence (open mind), we should reach a conclusion (closed mind). Once our conclusion has been reached, unless new evidence comes to light, our minds are closed.

Having a continually open mind means never reaching a decision.

 

[Barbkw]

The purpose of having an open mind is to develop a closed mind.

I need to start reading C. S. Lewis.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

C.S. Lewis (who was not a Catholic) wisely pointed out that:

After all, once we consider the evidence (open mind), we should reach a conclusion (closed mind). Once our conclusion has been reached, unless new evidence comes to light, our minds are closed.

Having a continually open mind means never reaching a decision.

LOL. No wonder he wasn’t Catholic. His mind was too small.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

C.S. Lewis (who was not a Catholic) wisely pointed out that:

After all, once we consider the evidence (open mind), we should reach a conclusion (closed mind). Once our conclusion has been reached, unless new evidence comes to light, our minds are closed.

Having a continually open mind means never reaching a decision.

I might understand better if I read it, but I don’t think of it this way.

When I reach a conclusion, I also reach an assumption of how sure I am. If I consider anything that I currently assume to be the end of it, then it closes my mind to corrections, and I’m not likely to be able to see new evidence except to try to see it through the myoptic view I currently consider closed.

I’m an engineer, not a scientist. So it isn’t my job to know what is absolutely true. I just have to know how it behaves under enough conditions that I can make a working model. One problem engineers have to guard against is that they forget that the formulas they use every day have their limitations. Money is wasted and people get killed because engineers fail to keep in the back of their minds, little “red flags” that pop up when our simplified formulas don’t work.

Look at Einstein’s work. Every single physicist worth his salt would swear on his own mother’s grave that matter is conserved. They even believed it religiously, “only God can make dirt where there was no matter before.” Well, that may not have been true, but it made sense and nobody thought it was anything else, so their minds were closed. Turn out Einstein said they were wrong, and they were.

No matter how convicted I am of something, if I don’t allow the chance of “what if I’m wrong” then the Holy Spirit is going to have to bonk me over the head to get my attention before I hear the whispers and groanings of the Lord.

If “closed minds” were Godly, then please consider the following:
1 Cor 8:1b-2:

… we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.

No matter how catchy our cliches are, I assert that in many cases like this one, they are really memes that work contrary to the work of the Lord.

My :twocents: .

Alan