Closer to Apes Than They Thought?

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Faith1960

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As some of you know, I’d been away from the Church for many years and returned this past spring. Since my return I keep having this fear that one day in the future, possibly near future, I’ll sign online and find some news that the scientific community has made an astounding new discovery which more or less squashes all that our faith, or Chrisianity, in general, teaches us. 😦

I had the unfortunate experience in reading a very long thread last month from another board where some people were insisting that since only humans have an immortal soul, we are the only species that can think or reason and animals can not think, reason or problem solve to any degree.
All the quotes and links they provided that supposedly prove that this is the teaching of the Church and those faithful to the Magesterium should believe, has negatively affected my faith since some animals do have a limited ability to think, reason and problem solve.

Tonight, I read this article from Time. Well, I skimmed it, actually, since the article is rather long, it’s late and I need to get to bed. 🙂

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1541283-1,00.html

In a nutshell, I’m more confused than ever. If it really is the Church’s teaching that no animals can reason or think, She is wrong since they can to some degree. At least some animals can. Gorillas having more cognitive ability than, say, a woodpecker; a dog, more so than a goldfish. As the Time article states about chimps:

[They make and use tools and teach those skills to their offspring. They prey on other animals and occasionally murder each other. They have complex social hierarchies and some aspects of what anthropologists consider culture. They can’t form words, but they can learn to communicate via sign language and symbols and to perform complex cognitive tasks. Scientists figured out decades ago that chimps are our nearest evolutionary cousins, roughly 98% to 99% identical to humans at the genetic level. When it comes to DNA, a human is closer to a chimp than a mouse is to a rat.]

If the Church says that it’s okay to believe in evolution (and my priest assured me that it is), I’m still confused since he also said that God breathed an immortal soul into humans which, as the scientists continue to make new discoveries daily, calls into question (for me, anyway) how that’s possible since, well, if anyone wants to read the link I provided, you can see for yourself.
The evolutionary process is a very complicated one and upon studying DNA, genomes etc., it makes me wonder if they’re going to discover something that will crumble the teachings of the Church. They’re even now looking into the possibility that interbreeding occured between more modern humans and apes which may explain why some discoveries look more human than ape.

I sometimes wonder if the Church okays the belief in evolution as a means to keep us faithful but may be grasping at straws in order to hold the faith together in light of scientific discovery.:confused:

I know evolution, ID and creationism has been discussed ad nauseum here but among those who’ve read the Time article, what do you think?
 
One thing to remember is that over everything, God made man “in his own image”, meaning that he has free will, just like God. The one thing that differentiates us from animals is not emotion, nor even language. It is that free will that allows us to override instinct and be more than just an animal. A dog cannot stop itself from mating with another dog in heat, for example. All of these animals are endowed with souls, but not immortal souls. It is this which makes us special.
 
The main thing that separates us is that animals can’t ever reason that they are alive and going to die. Where as we humans know we are mortal and going to die a physical death. I’ll start with that comment and others can help you out more with the church’s teaching.
 
Rolltide said:
One thing to remember is that over everything, God made man “in his own image”, meaning that he has free will, just like God. The one thing that differentiates us from animals is not emotion, nor even language. It is that free will that allows us to override instinct and be more than just an animal. A dog cannot stop itself from mating with another dog in heat, for example. All of these animals are endowed with souls, but not immortal souls. It is this which makes us special.
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Are you familar with Koko the signing gorilla? Someone introduced her into the previous discussion from another board and that really made me wonder just how much she, and other animals know. Her handlers make her seem very human-like although I don’t know if they go so far as to say or imply she can override instinct and make a choice to do something.
Assuming she can’t, still, the whole Time article has me a bit upset. 😦
 
wjp984 said:
The main thing that separates us is that animals can’t ever reason that they are alive and going to die. Where as we humans know we are mortal and going to die a physical death. I’ll start with that comment and others can help you out more with the church’s teaching.
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Thanks. I’ll be looking forward to everyone’s comments tomorrow. The time on my posts are incorrect. It’s actually 1AM here so I’m going to sign off now and get some :sleep: 🙂
 
Faith << Thanks. I’ll be looking forward to everyone’s comments tomorrow. …Are you familar with Koko the signing gorilla? Someone introduced her into the previous discussion from another board… >>

Koko and Jenny respond to your question. Don’t know if you can make much sense of it. Here it is:

ewquio tewqoitewq oi uiogdsau oitewqu jklgdsa oiqj gewq l gdsajklgewqj oigewqj iogdj lgdsaj kltewqj oigtewqj lgdsajkl gdsaoijtewqj gdlaj gdsakl gwq joiu iotewq tewqklgjda klgdsaj tewqoijgda jklgdsaj klgda joitewqoj tewqjkl gdsaj gdsao tewqjlgewqj kl jl jgewqoidsajklgdwaj oi

Thanks, I’ll read the Time article.

Phil P
 
I am not a Christian anymore, but I do remember reading that the Catholic Church does not consider science and faith to be contradictory. Other species such as the great apes and possibly dolphins have basic reasoning skills as well as basic self-awareness but according to Catholic theology this does not constitute the presence of the immortal soul which was only given to the human species. I believe if you have accepted the Catholic faith these new discoveries in evolution should not have much of an affect on that faith. It is a serious blow to six day creationists though who seem to deceive themselves and completely close their eyes to the evidence. Just a few weeks ago there was confirmation of the species considered by many to be the “missing link” related to the humanoid also named “Lucy.” I commend the Catholic Church for holding the scientific community in high regard, despite my disagreement with its other stances on different philosophical issues. I don’t remember ever hearing that the Church doesn’t believe that other animals have basic reasoning skills, It just doesn’t seem like it would be much of an issue considering the immortal soul is a metaphysical concept whereas reasoning and rationality are based more on the structure and development of the physical brain. I don’t believe the concept of the soul has a good argument for it, but if you accept it then the discoveries in evolution shouldn’t pose too much of a problem right?
 
wjp984 said:
The main thing that separates us is that animals can’t ever reason that they are alive and going to die. Where as we humans know we are mortal and going to die a physical death. I’ll start with that comment and others can help you out more with the church’s teaching.
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You have just identified exactly why religion and all that goes with it exists.

We are the only animal on the planet that is aware of its own mortality, humans also have an unbelievable arrogance that they are too special to just die and no longer exist so they invented religion, god and an afterlife which just strokes that ego even more.
 
R_McGeddon said:
You have just identified exactly why religion and all that goes with it exists.

We are the only animal on the planet that is aware of its own mortality, humans also have an unbelievable arrogance that they are too special to just die and no longer exist so they invented religion, god and an afterlife which just strokes that ego even more.
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As Christians we believe we are deserving of hell by our sinful nature. Christ died for us to redeem us from this outcome and to provide us with hope through His redeemtion that we may live eternally with Him.

How is this ego stroking?
 
Mijoy2 said:
As Christians we believe we are deserving of hell by our sinful nature. Christ died for us to redeem us from this outcome and to provide us with hope through His redeemtion that we may live eternally with Him.

How is this ego stroking?
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Simple, you believe that you are far too special to cease existing when you die. That is egotistic.

Following a religion of any kind is stroking that ego.
 
R McGeddon

We are the only animal on the planet that is aware of its own mortality, humans also have an unbelievable arrogance that they are too special to just die and no longer exist so they invented religion, god and an afterlife which just strokes that ego even more.

Here we go again.

Does it ever occur to you that the reason we think we are too special to die forever is that this sense is planted in us by God? If that is so, egotism has nothing to do with it. We are merely following God’s will … and humbly as possible if we know what’s good for us.

Rather, it strikes me as unbelievable arrogance to suppose that one can dismiss God with a flick of the intellectual wrist.
 
I’ll start to worry about it only when Koko and Jenny write their own article for Time magazine and post their replies on this discussion board.
 
It’s probably not unheard of but I do think it is extremely rare that people come to faith because they think they are too cool to die.

With me it was just the opposite. I gave just a wee bit of credence to the concept that just maybe these religious “fanatics” were correct about thier faith. I doubted it for many of the same reasons you state in some of your posts. But given the ramification(s) on the extreme longshot I was mistaken and the religious fanatics (my first encounters with faith were protestant evangelists), were correct I figured it was at least worthy of look see if for nothing more then a mathematical standpoint (statistics / probability)

The idea of ceasing to exist, at that time, was not an idea I feared or regretted. I liked the idea. I could do as my heart desired and there was no ramification. Life was as fun as I desired as long as I stayed healthy and young of course. It was a quite comforting and exciting proposition. Religion was a hinderence, an obstacle, not at all a comfort or a reward. It cramped my style. And I hated the backup of traffic at churches on Sunday when I was attempting to get around. I’d curse the “holy moly’s” as I called church goers and wondered why they didn’t get a life. 🙂

So I came to faith via a fear of God, and a fear of the possiblity of hell. Many may suggest this is with out integrity. Some might even say cowardly. But it was not this fear of God or fear of hell that helped me grow in my faith. It was the word of God, the intuitive feeling that the Catholic church is the bride of Christ who is Truth. The fact that the more I tried to refute teh church the more I was found to be wrong. Fear got me here, love kept me here.

I know you disagree with this as a worthy cause.
 
R_McGeddon said:
Simple, you believe that you are far too special to cease existing when you die. That is egotistic.

Following a religion of any kind is stroking that ego.
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Socrates and Plato came to the rational conclusion that the Human soul is eternal. Their thinking was dispassionate and analytical. From a Scientific point of view their hypothesis is just as good as the alternative. To dismiss them and their thinking as somehow irrational by calling them egotistical seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.
 
I can feel your pain, it would be easier to remain faithful if sciencists ever discovered anything to corroborate the faith instead of directly contradicting it. How nice would it be for DNA to prove Eucharistic miracles all the same DNA, yet hundreds of years apart? That won’t happen though.

It’s really what you believe, if we are simply advanced apes with enlarged frontal lobes, then this entire argument is nonsense and I can go to a life of quiet desperation waiting to die sipping my two fingers of Scotch everynight.

It would be nice if we get a teeny bit of assurance that we are on the right path instead of constant affirmation from the scientific community that the Bible is simply a fairy tale, and wrong about pretty much everything.
 
Faith1960 said:
Are you familar with Koko the signing gorilla? Someone introduced her into the previous discussion from another board and that really made me wonder just how much she, and other animals know. Her handlers make her seem very human-like although I don’t know if they go so far as to say or imply she can override instinct and make a choice to do something.
Assuming she can’t, still, the whole Time article has me a bit upset. 😦
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Faith one thing you should be careful about is reaching conclusions about animals that have been exposed to humans - that is a factor which grossly influences any conclusion you might like reach other than, “when exposed to humans gorillas can learn to xyz” Exposing a gorilla to a human changes every behavioral observation we can have.
 
R_McGeddon said:
Simple, you believe that you are far too special to cease existing when you die. That is egotistic.

Following a religion of any kind is stroking that ego.
Click to expand...
I dont have an ego that I am aware of. Further, I dont understand what use it would be to “stroke” ones ego. Does it make us more likely to survive? Even further, it would seem that such an idea that one believes he is far too special to cease existing would by quickly eliminated by the reality of experience. People die all the time and life goes on. On what basis would such a presumption of importance appear and why would it be so universal?
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
Rather, it strikes me as unbelievable arrogance to suppose that one can dismiss God with a flick of the intellectual wrist.
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Not to mention being a dogmatic article of faith just as untestable as any other worldview. Ahhh the skeptics ability to question anything but skepticism itself.
 
R_McGeddon said:
Simple, you believe that you are far too special to cease existing when you die. That is egotistic.

Following a religion of any kind is stroking that ego.
Click to expand...
You have it exactly backwards,. Being an atheist is all about blind faith and ego. You can not bring yourself to believe there is anything greater than you. You have to have blind faith that everything you see about you is the result of a vast primordial fart some 4 billion years ago while accepting on blind faith the materials that caused that fart just happened to be laying around waiting for something(but not SOMEONE) to set it off.

There is no basis for Atheism other than a faulty thought process.
 
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