Closer to Convinced

[JamesJr]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am interested in hearing the conspiracies. Conspiracies are interesting at the least. I have another question. Can I attend a Catholic RCIA even if I am not completely sold?

 

[GodIsPerfection]

As a child, I came from a Protestant background and culture, but God drew me steadily toward the truth of the Catholic Church. I once spent some time with “Old Order Orthodox Mennonites,” helping them raise a barn. By then I was Catholic, and I was surprised to learn that Menno Simons 1496 - 1561 (who had once been a Catholic priest) rejected the trans-substantiation of bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Jesus Christ as being “superstitious.” This is a common stumbling block among Protestants, who seem to have a certain difficulty with being “too rational.” But, if God is omnipresent, he can certainly bodily inhabit a piece of consecrated bread or a cup of wine. The Catholic literally ingests Jesus into himself, body and soul at the Eucharist. To Protestants, it is largely a symbolic gesture.

The authority to trans-substantiate at the Eucharist and to forgive sin at confession is transferred to priests at the rite of Holy Orders, based on the Apostolic Succession you previously alluded to. I am no expert on the topic, but it is spiritual authority derived from the Apostles, Jesus’ disciples.

Mennonite Meeting Houses are stripped barren, in keeping with the notion that nothing should distract from the word of God. Catholicism venerates the Holy Bible, but also adheres to a body of discerned teaching, called “Oral Tradition.” Thus, the Church venerates Mary, the Blessed Mother, to a greater degree than do Protestants. Based on the phrase “Hail, Mary, full of grace,” the salutation of Gabriel at the Annunciation (Luke I:3), the Church has discerned that Mary was the first human after Adam and Eve (who fell from grace) to be full of grace (without original sin) leading to the Catholic Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Catholic Churches commonly have paintings, statues, carvings, and iconography, not for idolatrous worship, but to remind us of the Holy Family and other Saints who led lives of great virtue.

Turning from rational thinking, can there be as much of God in a burning candle as in written words? Yes, certainly. The same applies to incense, Holy Water, the sign of the cross, Chrism oil, palm ashes, and other sacramentals used in Catholic worship.

Catholics believe in a continuum of souls, from before the foundation of the world, into our present world, and beyond death. Catholics do not believe that everyone goes immediately to heaven after death. Most of us will spend a time in purgatory, an intermediate dimension, where our souls are further purified before entering heaven. We pray for our loved ones who have passed, just as we pray for people in this present world.

All worldly churches have elements of corruption somewhere. But, Jesus is truly present in the Catholic Eucharist! That will always remain perfect!

The richness of the Catholic faith beckons you!

 

[twf]

There is also Biblical precedent for the idea that personal holiness (or lack thereof) does not negate a divinely given office. A great example would be the Pharisees…in Matthew 23, Our Lord tells his disciples to “do as they say, but not as they do” because they “sit on the Chair of Moses”. They had real teaching authority, and the fact that they were hypocrites didn’t change that. Even more striking…the high priest Caiaphas condemned God in the flesh to death! Yet St. John tells us that he “spoke by the Spirit” BECAUSE “he was high priest that year” (John 11:49-53).

 

[Hume]

Does any one of you Catholic Apologists have a strong argument that may tip me over the Tiber?

I’m an atheist that thinks the Orthodox argument is the superior one, but if you’re looking for a historical Christianity that is most likely the direct continuation of Christ’s Church on Earth, then Catholicism makes a fine second option for me.

First, an invisible church doesn’t work. The church had to be visible and apostolic in order to authoritatively teach and develop doctrine. It helps that a visible and apostolic church is the one with which we are presented in the New Testament.

Next is the NT itself. God didn’t hand it down from the clouds, it was fought over and canonized by the visible church. The NT isn’t just a guide for the church, it’s part of the church’s legacy. And as an interesting aside, “bible only” Christianity was an impossibility for most of western history as people simply didn’t have the ability to read it. That took place in the west almost within living memory. People heard about the bible by listening to it as liturgy/mass/gathering. This also plays back to why apostolic succession and a visible church were so important.

I can go on, but I’ll stop for now.

 

[Hume]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am interested in hearing the conspiracies. Conspiracies are interesting at the least. I have another question. Can I attend a Catholic RCIA even if I am not completely sold?

Of course you can.

In my RCIA class about half the folks were still in the inquiry stage

 

[JamesJr]

I have decided I am going to RCIA next month Lord willing. Thank you all for your help and encouragement. God bless

 

[twf]

You can go back and forth on the role of the Bishop of Rome in the early Church… lots of proof texts that both sides can use to support their argument. That said… this is my biggest issue with Orthodoxy: I can’t decide between Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy. How do I know Chalcedon was valid? It was accepted by those bishops in communion with Pope St Leo. That’s the only objective criteria that makes sense to me. Orthodoxy says it’s a valid council if it’s accepted by the Church as a whole… well a big chunk of the Church did not accept Chalcedon, and we still have Oriental Orthodoxy as a separate communion to this day as a result.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

I have decided I am going to RCIA next month Lord willing. Thank you all for your help and encouragement. God bless

that is great news James! God bless you - and I’ll be keeping you in my prayers as you continue your journey.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

First, an invisible church doesn’t work. The church had to be visible and apostolic in order to authoritatively teach and develop doctrine. It helps that a visible and apostolic church is the one with which we are presented in the New Testament.

You did an excellent job throughout with your reasoning on this.
Why do you not accept the New Testament? You alluded to it elsewhere but could you restate your reasons?

 

[tomo_pomo]

Thats good to know, but to be honest what helped me accept papal authority is simply seeing what happens without papal authority. 45000 different opinions we can see in Protestants.

 

[Hume]

How do I know Chalcedon was valid? It was accepted by those bishops in communion with Pope St Leo. That’s the only objective criteria that makes sense to me. Orthodoxy says it’s a valid council if it’s accepted by the Church as a whole… well a big chunk of the Church did not accept Chalcedon, and we still have Oriental Orthodoxy as a separate communion to this day as a result.

It’s accepted on the same basis as anything under “heretical” conciliarism - the broader church accepted it. It benefited from a wide majority.

As substantial as the oriental churches were in size, the Syrians and Egyptians that split out were still dwarfed by the Greek and Latin church. And if it’s of any worth, we may yet live to see the actual reunion of many Oriental churches with Orthodoxy.

Many say the same about Orientals and Catholicism, but they’re simply playing nice. Orientals overwhelmingly reject Vatican 1.

 

[Hume]

You did an excellent job throughout with your reasoning on this.
Why do you not accept the New Testament? You alluded to it elsewhere but could you restate your reasons?

What I was critiquing was the notion that the NT itself is a source of authority, as most evangelicals attest.

Written sources always demand an authoritative interpreter. The US constitution necessitates a Supreme Court and so on.

In that way, scripture is authoritative when interpreted by the visible church.