Closer to God..... but farther from salvation?

[WillC]

Hello all. I was talking to one of my local priests today in regards to a family member I have outside the Church. He is my cousin and a devout LCMS Lutheran. His wife was born and raised inside the Catholic Church. She left the Church and joined his denomination about 2 years-ish after they married.

I asked whether or not they are garaunteed to enter heaven or not and his answer surprised me a great deal. I was told that since ‘B’ was born a protestant, that Christ’s mercy and sacrifice extends to him by the faith he knows. BUT that ‘A’ may not be allowed entrance in Heaven because she left the Church.

NOW, here is my issue. I knew ‘A’ for years. When ‘A’ was a Catholic, she never read the Holy Bible. I never saw her pray other than at dinner from habit. She knew nothing about Church Fathers, moral obligations, or showed any interest in God whatsoever. All of this has since changed since she met ‘B’. She’s really a wonderful woman in almost every regard. Especially as a mother. I mean, she has her little daughter reciting the Nicene Creed at 5 years old!

But I was told today “it doesn’t matter”. I asked if my parents (who show ZERO care for the Church, don’t pray, don’t focus on God at all) had a better shot at Heaven, or ‘A’.

He said, “If they attend Mass regularly, they are probably covered. Though, I’m not the judge. ‘A’ is not. I’m very glad that her husband has opened her heart and mind to the eternal, but since she left, I can’t say with any certainty she will enter Heaven.”

I’m not gunna lie… Since my faith search really began several years ago, this is the first time I feel really uneasy. It seems so… backwards.

 

[mcq72]

Sounds like you have been confronted with instititional salvation, or at least an old hardliner priest.

I understand the difference between one growing up a Protestant, and one leaving the CC to be Protestant. Not sure that “A” is as culpable as priest suggests, especially if she did not really seem Catholic in her heart, for you said she seemed only to go thru motions. So it is possible she does not have experience of full knowledge that indeed CC is “the church”. I think to be guilty one has to know that they left the true church.

Otherwise there are millions of seperated brethren who left CC and are Protestant or Orthodox today, like myself, are disciples in vain.

In fairness, priest was not sure, and did not rule her being unheaven bound completely.

The desire for heaven for loved ones is admirable.Yet I feel Protestants are more stringent, and may not give you any better hope save One.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If one is a Catholic and leaves the Catholic Church, that’s considered quite grave.

It doesn’t matter if the person was a lukewarm Catholic and and later became a fervent Protestant. All that means is that the person also committed the sin of being a lukewarm Catholic, before they committed the sin of leaving the Church. So that’s two serious sins. If someone is a lukewarm Catholic, but does not leave the Church, then they’ve committed only one sin, not two.

Neither the priest or anyone else can predict who will be saved in the end. I think what the priest was trying to get across was that “A” committed a grave sin and has not repented from it. “B” on the other hand has not committed the same grave sin, because he was never a Catholic and was raised as a Protestant and taught that his own faith was correct.

You don’t get “closer to God” by quitting the Catholic Church, or by committing any other sin.

 

[fhansen]

The church’s teaching on sin and our culpability for it always involves knowledge. And A was certainly ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one Church established by Christ for man’s salvation, or A would not have been capable of leaving it to begin with.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The church’s teaching on sin and our culpability for it always involves knowledge . And A was certainly ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one Church established by Christ for man’s salvation, or A would not have been capable of leaving it to begin with.

First, a priest would have to talk to A in person to determine what A did know or didn’t know. A priest who had not spoken with A could not say for sure that A was in mortal sin for sure. However, leaving the Catholic Church as an adult of one’s own volition is a grave sin, regardless of whether it’s mortal, and someone committing a grave sin is always considered to be in danger of not making it to Heaven.

Second, I think virtually everyone who left the Catholic Church to join another faith did so by pooh-poohing the idea that the Catholic Church was God’s one true Church. Either they decide that another church is the true church, or they decide it doesn’t matter and one church is as good as another and you should just pick the one that feels good/ is convenient/ is the church of the person you marry etc. I don’t think you can say that every one of those people somehow lacked knowledge that the Catholic Church was the true church and thus didn’t sin when they left. “Lack of knowledge” would only apply if a person was somehow never told or taught that it was wrong for a Catholic to change churches.

 

[WillC]

But thats the confusion. I’m sure she DID believe the Church is Christ’s true Church. But obviously, due to ignorance on her part because her family (like mine) never instructed her in the Faith, changed her view.

Is that her fault? Or her parents? Priest?

I’d love to see them come to Mother Church, but I have a very hard time understanding how these two (specifically ‘A’) are farther from salvation when they take Jesus Christ far more seriously than my family does.

To hear from my local priests, many on Catholic Answers, and friends that my immediate family who obviously don’t care about the Faith are in a better position because they go to Mass every Sunday… just seems so wrong.

I only wish I had parents that read scripture at dinner. Prayed together. And proudly walked a Godly life like these two. I see Jesus asking me, “Of which of these two has done the will of My Father?”.

 

[fhansen]

First, a priest would have to talk to A in person to determine what A did know or didn’t know. A priest who had not spoken with A could not say for sure that A was in mortal sin for sure. However, leaving the Catholic Church as an adult of one’s own volition is a grave sin, regardless of whether it’s mortal, and someone committing a grave sin is always considered to be in danger of not making it to Heaven.

I agree. But in this case the priest apparently didn’t speak to A in any case. And we have to understand that it’s very unlikely that A said, “Yes, I know the Catholic Church is the one true Church of God and that there’s no other way to be saved but I hate and denounce the Church and God anyway so I’m leaving”. That would mean having true full knowledge- and rejecting it.

Second, I think virtually everyone who left the Catholic Church to join another faith did so by pooh-poohing the idea that the Catholic Church was God’s one true Church. Either they decide that another church is the true church, or they decide it doesn’t matter and one church is as good as another and you should just pick the one that feels good/ is convenient/ is the church of the person you marry etc. I don’t think you can say that every one of those people somehow lacked knowledge that the Catholic Church was the true church and thus didn’t sin when they left. “Lack of knowledge” would only apply if a person was somehow never told or taught that it was wrong for a Catholic to change churches.

I think we need to move past, “Well, the Church told me that they’re the one true Church so now I know”. All we really know at that point is a claim. And talk is cheap and other churches/denominations say as much and Islam says the same and some people are certain that aliens exist and some say that the CC is the whore of Babylon. At 17 I didn’t know that fact-the truth of that claim- for myself even though I was raised Catholic-and I left the Church. At 45 I did understood that fact way better. But these are supernatural truths after all and yet we’re limited, finite beings; we’re not God, and He put us on this planet so that through a process of time and experience combined with revelation and grace we may learn-not rote facts, but learn the “knowledge of God” that we’re born without and that we truly and honestly possess only to the extent that it’s been learned for ourselves and internalized as our own knowledge. Many people talk and act as if they know-and they may, or they may not, actually have the level of certainty they profess.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You seem to be working really hard to somehow excuse this person “A” whom you do not know and have not talked to from the fact that “A” Committed A Grave Sin.

It might not be a mortal sin, but for a Catholic to leave the Church for another church is a grave sin.
And that’s the end of the matter.

You can’t tap dance around it. It’s grave matter.
Just like fornication, use of birth control, adultery, and missing Mass on Sunday without a good reason or a dispensation.

The priest was absolutely correct not to just blow it off.

 

[BornInMarch]

“Lack of knowledge” would only apply if a person was somehow never told or taught that it was wrong for a Catholic to change churches.

I have to disagree on this point. Pretty much every church says that, and before you say “but when the Catholic church says it its true” I’ll point out that every church says that as well.

So how can a layperson know which church is the true one? It could be the call of the Holy Spirit, but not everyone recognizes that so easily - some will not notice it’s calling, others will mistake their own passions for it.

 

[mcq72]

It might not be a mortal sin, but for a Catholic to leave the Church for another church is a grave sin.
And that’s the end of the matter.

It’s even graver to be in the right church ( even any church) and still be without Jesus .

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have to disagree on this point. Pretty much every church says that, and before you say “but when the Catholic church says it its true” I’ll point out that every church says that as well.

So how can a layperson know which church is the true one?

A Catholic layperson is expected to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Not the Lutheran Church, LDS Church, Islamic mosque, or Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

It’s not rocket science, and you “having to disagree” doesn’t change the Church teaching or give a free pass to adult Catholics to walk out on the Catholic Church because they were confused by the claims of some other church. This sort of thing is precisely why the Church historically taught against Catholics attending Protestant churches, reading Protestant Bibles, or marrying non-Catholics.

 

[BornInMarch]

A Catholic layperson is expected to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Once again, I’ll point out that every church claims this.

If the thread was about someone who was raised Lutheran but converted to Catholicism in adulthood you wouldn’t be saying “You’re expected to follow the teachings of the Lutheran Church”, you’d be telling them they made the right decision and that their doubts in the previous church were entirely merited.

If someone asks how you know the Catholic Church is the true one then the answer needs more weight than “It just is! Now shut up and fall into line!”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Once again, I’ll point out that every church claims this.

With all due respect, “A” in this example was a Catholic.

The claims of other churches should not have made a dent on them.

We are not talking about some unchurched person who had to pick a church to join. Once you are Catholic and received into the Church, that’s where you’re supposed to stay.

If you leave, it’s a serious sin - grave matter.
You knew the truth, and you rejected it.

I’m not sure why you keep somehow insisting that just because every church makes a similar claim, it’s okay for a Catholic to go join another church. It’s not okay. The Church most definitely says it’s not okay. The Church’s opinion is the ONLY Opinion that a Catholic should pay attention to.

Having repeated this now three times, I will take my leave of the thread.

 

[BornInMarch]

I’m not sure why you keep somehow insisting that just because every church makes a similar claim, it’s okay for a Catholic to go join another church. It’s not okay.

You’re insisting on blind loyalty unbacked by evidence.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This isn’t about evidence. It’s about the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I’m not here to convince you, I’m giving the Church teaching.

If you don’t like it, then that’s your problem. Not the problem of me or the Church.

Good day.

 

[BornInMarch]

I think we need to move past, “Well, the Church told me that they’re the one true Church so now I know”. All we really know at that point is a claim. And talk is cheap and other churches/denominations say as much and Islam says the same and some people are certain that aliens exist and some say that the CC is the whore of Babylon. At 17 I didn’t know that fact-the truth of that claim- for myself even though I was raised Catholic-and I left the Church. At 45 I did understood that fact way better.

I’m glad somebody on this thread understands that demanding blind loyalty isn’t going to convince people to stay with the Church.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I’m not gunna lie… Since my faith search really began several years ago, this is the first time I feel really uneasy. It seems so… backwards.

Have no fear, our God is a merciful God.

Your priest is trying to explain best he can as I’m sure many here will. But the truth is our ways are not his ways. We can only trust Him. Pray on the words your priest told you.

But a couple of things did come to mind while reading your post.

A man told one of his sons to go work in his vineyard. The son said yes, he will go, but did not. The man told his other son to go work in his vineyard. The other son said no, I will not go work in your vineyard, but later decided to do so.

& I read here, in another post: if we obey the law for fear of punishment, then we are slaves. If we obey the law for hope of reward, then we are but hired men. If we obey the law for love of Him who wrote the law, then we are children of the most high.

 

[fhansen]

Well, if I was presumptuous I’d say that the priest was equally so. We’re considering A’s culpability at this point in her life here- which we don’t have the privilege of knowing with certainty- and either way I’d prefer to let the Church shed light on both sides of the matter in her teachings:

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

 

[otjm]

I have a number of cousins, and three of them were sons of one of my mother’s sisters.

Of the three, two married non-Catholics. The third married a Catholic, was divorced, married another woman, divorced her, remarried her, divorced her a second time and is now married to a third woman. Neither of the last two women were Catholic.

All three of my cousins went through Catholic grade school and high school, well before schools “got stupid”.

One of the other two (i.e. married once) was buried from a Foursquare Church, which he apparently attended regularly.

I pray for his salvation. I know thoroughly what the the Church teaches; and I don’t pretend to know what God does either in His justice or his mercy. I pray for his salvation and leave the rest of it in God’s hands.

 

[lanman87]

This kind of thing, from a non-Catholic perspective, is very sad.

We are saved by grace through faith. If your cousin did not have an active and living faith while being “Catholic” then being Catholic did her no good. But if she has an active and living faith as a non-Catholic then, well, the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith. And if that active and living faith is being fed and grown by being Lutheran. Then it seems to me that being Lutheran is the best thing that ever happened to her.

BTW- I know several people who were raised Catholic and are now Evangelical Christians. I’ve asked a few of them why they became evangelical. Almost all of them answer that they came to faith in Christ by the witness or teaching of an evangelical friend or family member. And that while they were good Catholics who attending mass and participated in the life of the church, they never really had a personal faith while in the Catholic church. To them having a personal faith was more important than being “Catholic”.