Closer to God..... but farther from salvation?

[WillC]

You understand why that is hard for me, right? What if I have an extremely strong growing relationship with allah because I live in Iraq?

Or start to deny the Trinity because I feel closer the the Mormon version of God?

I don’t entirely like the “feelings” aspect being involved. Its not so much an issue with these two because they both believe and confess in Jesus Christ crucified, the Holy Trinity, and the same moral code as one should expect of a believer.

I don’t think “feelings” should make you leave the Church. That being said, I think following Christ’s example and having faith in Him are of more redeeming quality than simply going to Mass weekly.

 

[mcq72]

glad somebody on this thread understands that demanding blind loyalty isn’t going to convince people to stay with the Church

Yes, there is a point wbere arguing from authority becomes weak. We are to reason together.

For sure to reject Christ is peril.

 

[lanman87]

I don’t entirely like the “feelings” aspect being involved.

I think there is a difference between feelings and faith in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

This kind of thing, from a non-Catholic perspective, is very sad.

We are saved by grace through faith. If your cousin did not have an active and living faith while being “Catholic” then being Catholic did her no good. But if she has an active and living faith as a non-Catholic then, well, the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith. And if that active and living faith is being fed and grown by being Lutheran. Then it seems to me that being Lutheran is the best thing that ever happened to her.

BTW- I know several people who were raised Catholic and are now Evangelical Christians. I’ve asked a few of them why they became evangelical. Almost all of them answer that they came to faith in Christ by the witness or teaching of an evangelical friend or family member. And that while they were good Catholics who attending mass and participated in the life of the church, they never really had a personal faith while in the Catholic church. To them having a personal faith was more important than being “Catholic”.

The concept of the need to belong to the Catholic Church is the same as for any aspects of our faith. If we know that God exists, that Jesus is God, that He died and rose for our sins, and we’d don’t believe anyway and actually place our faith in, hope/trust in, and love for Him then we’re culpable for a very grave sin that should exclude us from the kingdom of God. We’re overriding and saying “no” to our own consciences, probably due to fear of what others thinks, pride or protecting our position/status IOW as per John 12:42 for example.

And the same can be said for the faith in regard to the Church. To the extent that I know that the Catholic Church is that church in the fullest sense of the word that Christ established, which the gates of hell haven’t and won’t prevail against, and that contains the “fullness of truth” that was revealed to us some two millennia ago (the same truth that Sola Scriptura adherents often argue among themselves about), and I refuse to be part of that Church, then I’m culpable for that failure to abide by God’s will. There may still be other mitigating circumstances but that’s the gist of it.

 

[lanman87]

What about people who were raised Catholic and had a head knowledge that God exist, that Jesus is God, and that He died and rose for our sins but that head knowledge never turned into “heart knowledge”. In other words, the intellectual aspect of faith never made it into the spiritual aspect of faith.

Then, after a conversation with a non-Catholic friend or relative or listening to a non-Catholic preacher, comes under conviction of sin, and has a life changing “conversion” experience, where their intellectual knowledge turns into a true faith in Christ.

From that persons perspective, Jesus is found outside the confines of the Catholic church and instead is found in a direct spiritual encounter with God. Do you really think it is unreasonable that that person to want to remain where they encountered Christ? And that such an encounter would change their perspective on how to define church and faith?

 

[fhansen]

What about people who were raised Catholic and had a head knowledge that God exist, that Jesus is God, and that He died and rose for our sins but that head knowledge never turned into “heart knowledge”. In other words, the intellectual aspect of faith never made it into the spiritual aspect of faith.

Then, after a conversation with a non-Catholic friend or relative or listening to a non-Catholic preacher, comes under conviction of sin, and has a life changing “conversion” experience, where their intellectual knowledge turns into a true faith in Christ.

From that persons perspective, Jesus is found outside the confines of the Catholic church and instead is found in a direct spiritual encounter with God. Do you really think it is unreasonable that that person to want to remain where they encountered Christ? And that such an encounter would change their perspective on how to define church and faith?

To be honest, that’s exactly what happened to me-by seeking on my own any and everywhere for a larger Truth, ending up with the bible, to my own surprise. And that, at some point, is when head knowledge turned into heart knowledge. I went from being agnostic, to a believer, to a member of Protestant church for quite some time. But God works in His own, mysterious, ways and my journey didn’t end there-it’s never really over for that matter, praise God!-might get boring otherwise.

Anyway at some point later on, 25 or so years after leaving the Church, I found my self, to my surprise again, back inside as I came to understand that there was really no reason to leave to begin with-for myself or the Reformers- once I dug deeper, on my own again. It’s not a matter, of course, of what service style we prefer or how we think the buildings should look or who preaches the best sermons-if we attend a church at all- but first of all who or what teaches the truth in its fullness. And I was quite anti-Catholic for awhile there, adhering to Protestant theology as I did. It’s a long story, with quite a few twists and turns.

 

[lanman87]

So do you hold that those, who have similar experiences as you, but never find their way back to the Catholic church, but live a life of belief and faith in the community in which their faith was formed, are doomed because they left the Catholic church?

 

[Inbonum]

We as Catholics believe that Catholic Church is the only true Church Jesus founded.
So when Catholics go away and join other Church it is not Christ who led them away from Catholic Church and brought them somewhere else so they can become faithful.
That is impossible. In that case Jesus didn’t led anyone to leave catholicism but those people found their version of Jesus in particular Church and became faithful to that. Or they “found God” (it can have various meanings) somewhere else but God Himself would never led anyone away from truth. God cannot contradict Himself.

I know some people who left CC and joined Pentecostals or Moonies, they are very devoted and nice people BUT they left Catholic Church - only true Church that Jesus founded.
If that wouldn’t be important then Jesus wouldn’t found ONE Church but thousands of Churches.
What is good in our eyes can be quite opposite in God’s.

Nobody can judge someone’s interior state nor I can judge if someone will be saved or not but in general leaving Catholic Church and joining other Church or religion isn’t “another way to Heaven” because Church says this in Lumen Gentium

**14.This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13)

 

[fhansen]

So do you hold that those, who have similar experiences as you, but never find their way back to the Catholic church, but live a life of belief and faith in the community in which their faith was formed, are doomed because they left the Catholic church?

No, God judges by the heart-and none of us ever attain to perfect righteousness, i.e. faith, hope, and love in this lifetime, based on absolute perfect knowledge of our own. I’ve come to believe that the Catholic Church possesses that knowledge to the fullest extent possible though, understanding and conveying Christ’s words and deeds most accurately, with most right and best reason for being capable of doing so, so that, as I do with Jesus, I now say, “…to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

I can’t speak for others. Maybe God has them on the same path has myself, maybe they’ll be cut short beforehand-IDK. I believe, however, that the path points us to Jesus through the CC, only because, again, that’s the Church He established for that purpose. He’s the way, but the Church knows the surest way to Him. God will take care of anyone who’s done the best they can with whatever they’ve been given, “investing their talents” and producing some kind of increased yield with it. At the evening of life He judges us on our love. But see, there you go again, the Catholic Church is the one that clearly, unequivocally, and officially teaches that so important, concise understanding of the gospel truth.

 

[lanman87]

Thank you for your reply. I hope the OP can take comfort from your opinion.

However, you seem to be in the minority on this board. It also appears that the official position of the Catholic church is those that leave the church and join non-Catholic churches are doomed, regardless of the state of their faith when they left and the formation of faith in the non-Catholic church.

See the post just before yours…

 

[stpurl]

I think you’re misunderstanding the idea because you’re missing the idea of objective and absolute.

Now, an objective Truth in the Catholic Church is that the Church is the True Church, and that any baptised Catholic person who willingly and with full consent, full knowledge, and free will denied that and refused to remain in the Church would be committing an objective mortal sin here.

BUT to say flat right right now that “Jenny was a Catholic and has left the Church, Jenny will go to hell” would not be correct.

Jenny was a Catholic and has left the Church ‘now’. If Jenny does not repent before death Jenny will objectively condemn herself to hell. God is merciful. We can hope that He can show Jenny her error so that Jenny does repent. We don’t know when that may happen, so we cannot know for sure that when Jenny dies she will NOT have repented.

Heck, that’s why the Church doesn’t say anybody is, without doubt, in hell. Not even Judas.

So I don’t know why people are convinced that Catholics are ‘condemning people to hell’. We can’t do that. What we can point out is that certain things are absolute or objective mortal sins and that if a person meets the criteria for being in mortal sin and does not repent before death, the conclusion for that is that they have chosen hell. But again, we don’t put them there, God doesn’t ‘put them there’, IF it does happen it is because they CHOSE to be there.

 

[lanman87]

If Jenny does not repent before death Jenny will objectively condemn herself to hell. God is merciful. We can hope that He can show Jenny her error so that Jenny does repent. We don’t know when that may happen, so we cannot know for sure that when Jenny dies she will NOT have repented.

If you notice in my post to fhansen that I stipulated someone who was raised Catholic, but whose faith is formed (comes into being) in a Non-Catholic church and never finds their way back to the Catholic church. Even by your comments, that person, unless they repent of not being Catholic at the last second, are doomed.

 

[mcq72]

So when Catholics go away and join other Church it is not Christ who led them away from Catholic Church and brought them somewhere else so they can become faithful.
That is impossible

Well then you may know more than what the CC can decree, as she does say in Lumen Gentium, that it indeed is quite possible for salvific grace and holy Christian living in seperated brethren communities.

Wether Christ led them there or not, Christ certainly blesses them there.

To me that certainly opens the door to different understanding to “there is no salvation outside the Church”, for there certainly is. The statement now must be qualified by the CC, with some justification, that such graced life is still due to the historical, foundational “Church”, even showing unity. We are all “catholic” to some extent.

Again as to Christ leading one away from the CC, I would point out that more than a few leave the CC on their own, and not to another church, but to a carnal life, following the natural man, or at least an almost non spiritual one. Now from there you can argue that Christ did not draw them to salvation thru a non CC community, but the fruit that even Lumen Gentium acknowledges argues against you.

 

[stpurl]

Well seriously, wouldn’t you agree that anybody who committed any mortal sin whatsoever, doesn’t matter which, and doesn’t repent has condemned himself or herself to hell?

Substitute ANY mortal sin into what I said about a person who knowingly commits a mortal sin and doesn’t repent.

God gives every person sufficient grace to be saved. So your baptised Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church and ‘doesn’t find a way back’ before death would never be left by God without a chance to come back. Again, it’s all full knowledge, grave matter, full consent.

You seem to think that a ‘forming of the faith’ whereby the appearance of a person by their words and actions of having a relationship with God ‘outside of the Catholic Church’ should simply ‘cancel’ the person’s obstinate, fully chosen mortal sin unrepented. It doesn’t work that way.

Although it actually appears more as if you are, by offering this ‘scenario’, really intending to cast doubt on whether a baptised Catholic who leaves the Church ‘for ever’ IS even ‘sinning at all’ since, “They’re acting real Christian without the Catholic Church, so it can’t be a sin to leave the Church or they wouldn’t be such faithful loving Christians outside it.”

Again, it doesn’t work that way.

The end doesn’t justify the means. The ‘look’ of a person ‘forming the faith outside the Catholic Church’, i.e., “the End being them being such a ‘good Christian’ does not justify the means. . .leaving the Church in order to ‘get the faith’.

 

[mcq72]

The end doesn’t justify the means.

No, but what is worse, for one to leave the church and live a natural, carnal life or to live a spiritual life in a “community”?

 

[Inbonum]

Well then you may know more than what the CC can decree, as she does say in Lumen Gentium, that it indeed is quite possible for salvific grace and holy Christian living in seperated brethren communities.

That what you mention is part of LG which speaks about Protestants who aren’t ex Catholics. Catholics who left Church and joined other churches or religions aren’t the same as someone who is born Protestant.
You can by yourself read what Lumen Gentium says about Catholics (and those who leave Catholic Church), about non Catholic Christians and about people of non-Christian religions.
Nobody says that Protestants cannot be saved.

My answer isn’t contrary to teaching of Catholic Church nor to common sense.

Here’s what Church says about non-Catholic Christians, Lumen Gentium

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

Problem is when Catholics leave Church and join another and present that event as something great. Here we cannot judge someone’s salvation but Church is clear in teaching about those who left. Catholics who left Catholic Church are in sin.

Church is ONE.
How can Christ lead someone away from true Church to somewhere else? In Church He didn’t found? That is contrary to Christ.

 

[stpurl]

Once again you are ignoring the heart of the matter.

Either one of those with regard to the scenario of a baptised Catholic leaving the Faith, whether it is leaving the faith for complete atheism or leaving the Faith for ‘another spiritual community’ is a mortal sin.

It’s like asking which way to die is better, by hanging or by shooting. Both are painful, and both leave you just as dead.

 

[lanman87]

Well seriously, wouldn’t you agree that anybody who committed any mortal sin whatsoever, doesn’t matter which, and doesn’t repent has condemned himself or herself to hell?

If someone never had a “formed faith” then they are already living in mortal sin. It would seem to me that having faith in Christ as a Lutheran or Baptist or whatever would be better than not having faith as a Catholic and just going through the motions of the Mass and Liturgy of the church.

Of course, as a Non-Catholic, I reject the notion that anyone is saved by “being Catholic” but all are saved by “being catholic” that is part of the universal church that is made of all who are baptized by the Spirit and call on the name of the Lord in faith.

What you are describing as Catholic doctrine regarding Catholics who leave the church to follow Christ elsewhere, no offense, is repugnant to me. It not only goes against the Gospel message but also goes against what the Apostles taught about how life and forgiveness are found in Christ. And about the loving, merciful and gracious nature of God to all who call on His name.

In short, teachings such as this one is why I will never be Catholic. I have great respect for many Catholics and appreciate the legacy of the early catholic church and the legacy of those in the middle ages who held on to the rule of faith. However, to put the Catholic church ahead of faith in Christ as a cause for salvation is just wrong on so many levels.

 

[mcq72]

That what you mention is part of LG which speaks about Protestants who aren’t ex Catholics. Catholics who left Church and joined other churches or religions aren’t the same as someone who is born Protestant.

It is in the eyes of the beholder. Again is it worse to leave the Catholic Church (into a perditious life? ) or into another Christian community?

Agree that LG addresses those who leave the CC in a negative way. It is left to the reader to decide leave for where.

LG next addresses seperated brethren in a positive way , with no apparent distinction
with how you arrive there.

Nevertheless somewhere in writing it may be addressed, for there are more than a few decree sources dealing with seperated brethren.

“although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity” LG

I might also add that I am struck by the explicitness of salvation by the and in CC decreed in LG. Though LG cites explicit salvation by faith in baptism in scripture, she explicitly cites the implicitness of the need for CC for salvation in LG, by tradition capital T I think.

It is not explicit in scripture however, per LG.

 

[mcq72]

How can Christ lead someone away from true Church to somewhere else? In Church He didn’t found? That is contrary to Christ.

How can there be such blessings in these other communities? Aparently Christ honors the catholic and apostolic foundations in them, and we make a bigger fuss as to the other details, to the Lord’s chagrin?