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lanman87
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We will have to just disagree.
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stpurl
Guest
We can disagree, of course. I usually disagree with a person when he or she is wrong, but they are free to choose wrongly, after all.
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lanman87
Guest
I feel the same way.
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stpurl
Guest
LOL. So there we are, in perfect agreement. I wish you the very best, whether we disagree or not, because I know God loves you. And so do I!
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mcq72
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Well, you can’t know anything in spirit and truth without divine revelation.
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mcq72
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And you know your paradigm is wrong when on one hand you say seperated brethren are beautiful believers and on the other hand say they are not true followers of Christ ( as one priestly article said paraphrased).
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mcq72
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Only One way to be saved…the CC institution or any Protestant church does not save, just as Holy Scripture or Tradition by itsf does not save, but all should point to the 100% saver Jesus Christ.
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Vico
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From The Council of TrentVico:
Well, you can’t know anything in spirit and truth without divine revelation.
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mcq72
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Thank you. Have read that before (thanks to CAF).
Still hold that we can know nothing in spirit and truth but by divine revelation.
By Trent we see culmination of God’s understanding put in man, divinely revealed, is subject to error on man’s part, but put into a Church, is without error. Kind of puts the layman in his place, even dependent on the church, and not vice versa also. If that is what church is, being only in a community doesn’t sound so bad.
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Vico
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You are welcome. Because it is by supernatural grace – the Holy Spirit.Vico:
Thank you. Have read that before (thanks to CAF).
Still hold that we can know nothing in spirit and truth but by divine revelation.
By Trent we see culmination of God’s understanding put in man, divinely revealed, is subject to error on man’s part, but put into a Church, is without error. Kind of puts the layman in his place, even dependent on the church, and not vice versa also. If that is what church is, being only in a community doesn’t sound so bad.
Catechism
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stpurl
Guest
No, you don’t. Since you ‘paraphrased’ I have a strong suspicion that what you just said the article ‘said’ wasn’t said at all.
You can be a follower of Christ but not a complete follower, and that’s Catholic and non-Catholic Christian alike. “I”m Christian and… . .Democrat, Republican, black, white, male, female, SAHM, banker, nurse, teacher, lawyer, soldier, etc. Etc. And you can be a follower of ‘all the dogma’ or you can be a cafeteria Christian. . . Go with the rules you like. Or you can have a good Christian faith as far as it goes, but you don’t have the completeness of all the faith.
Nobody is saying every Catholic, just because our Faith is the full and complete faith, follows it completely. It’s just that we have a better chance to be able to.
Suppose you have a fully stocked kitchen, every possible item of cookware, everything in the pantry, all the knives and pots and pans and silverware, everything. You’re going to be much more likely to make a really good meal, and indeed, to be able to feed lots of people.
Now suppose you have a kitchenette, a few well-used gadgets, a pantry with ‘the basics’. You will also be able to make a meal, and if you’re very talented and you go ‘outside the box’ you can still even make a great one. But you won’t be able to feed very many because your kitchen and supplies are limited. You are going to have to work really hard, borrow, and supplement elsewhere.
The first person with the big kitchen might neglect it.
The second person with the tiny kitchen might have it in constant use.
But all things being equal, any given individual has a better chance of eating and feeding others with the ‘complete’ kitchen.
You can be a follower of Christ but not a complete follower, and that’s Catholic and non-Catholic Christian alike. “I”m Christian and… . .Democrat, Republican, black, white, male, female, SAHM, banker, nurse, teacher, lawyer, soldier, etc. Etc. And you can be a follower of ‘all the dogma’ or you can be a cafeteria Christian. . . Go with the rules you like. Or you can have a good Christian faith as far as it goes, but you don’t have the completeness of all the faith.
Nobody is saying every Catholic, just because our Faith is the full and complete faith, follows it completely. It’s just that we have a better chance to be able to.
Suppose you have a fully stocked kitchen, every possible item of cookware, everything in the pantry, all the knives and pots and pans and silverware, everything. You’re going to be much more likely to make a really good meal, and indeed, to be able to feed lots of people.
Now suppose you have a kitchenette, a few well-used gadgets, a pantry with ‘the basics’. You will also be able to make a meal, and if you’re very talented and you go ‘outside the box’ you can still even make a great one. But you won’t be able to feed very many because your kitchen and supplies are limited. You are going to have to work really hard, borrow, and supplement elsewhere.
The first person with the big kitchen might neglect it.
The second person with the tiny kitchen might have it in constant use.
But all things being equal, any given individual has a better chance of eating and feeding others with the ‘complete’ kitchen.
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Lucy_1
Guest
I think the hang up is that the Church is a servant of truth, not an arbiter of it. The Catholic Church is the means by which God offers salvation to the world. The Church only has permission to endorse-- for lack of a better word, I’m not a theologian-- that method of going to heaven.
At the end of our lives He will judge according to works, acceptance of grace, and friendship with God
The catechism says: “Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, or immediate and everlasting damnation. At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.”
However since she left the Catholic Church as an adult, that gets a little sticky. If she was well catechised and rejected Catholicism, that’s a serious issue. But if she thought, hey, one church is as good as another, and was in ignorance, that’s a different issue. But it doesn’t sound like she was well catechized, or may not have understood it.
God holds us responsible for what we know.
At the end of our lives He will judge according to works, acceptance of grace, and friendship with God
The catechism says: “Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, or immediate and everlasting damnation. At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.”
However since she left the Catholic Church as an adult, that gets a little sticky. If she was well catechised and rejected Catholicism, that’s a serious issue. But if she thought, hey, one church is as good as another, and was in ignorance, that’s a different issue. But it doesn’t sound like she was well catechized, or may not have understood it.
God holds us responsible for what we know.
This is very sad from a Catholic perspective too. But it shouldn’t be either or. A Catholic should have a deep personal faith
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fhansen
Guest
No, that doesn’t mean we believe or know it-even if we say we believe it. And in the same vein we can be told over and over that God exists, that Jesus is God and that He died for our sins and rose from the dead and not believe it. Since the advent of widespread literacy, the printing press, and the doctrine of Sols Scriptura it’s been easier to dismiss the importance and authority of the Church. But Christianity wouldn’t have survived without the physical, visible, locatable Church. The Church, one Church with little real competition within Christianity, recognized as the only one that Christ had established, became the center of society and the glue that largely held it together. To depart from the Church was to leave Christ. The Church was/is the faith; no one is saved apart from the Church-even if, especially as things are today, they are not perfectly united to the one Church. But in any case we should all agree that there can only be one Church. And to believe that the fulness of Christian truth exists in the Catholic Church established at the beginning and not be fully part of it would be outside of God’s will.
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mcq72
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Well. I tried finding the posted article that was less than a month ago. For sure it said we are " not true followers of Christ". What I paraphrased was at the begiining of article, saying something like what lumen gentium says, that we have been graced with salvation and genuinely loved and serve the Lord Jesus etc…
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I will search some more for the article that I was asked to read by a Catholic.
Found it ( Catholic Church founded by Jesus thread). This under “Outside the Church No Salvation”:
"Catholics regard their separated brethren as being sincere people in good faith. Many of them have a deep, personal love of Christ and regulate their lives according to the highest ideals. "
He then goes on to say under “Conclusion”:
"We cannot be true followers of Christ unless we accept his Church.”
So to some seems like a contradiction, to others having your cake and eating too, but either way shows a wrong paradigm, or at least unnecesarily complex .
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mcq72
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Nobody is fed until they are born again.
All churches/communities have equal access to the Spirit and the Gospel to preach, and to baptizing.
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stpurl
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Come again? We are born again at baptism.
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mcq72
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I wrote what I wrote. Make of it what you want, for it does not change my point.
We can talk about regenerational baptism some other time, but we are baptized into the body of Christ and certainly not as unregenerate, by any church/ community equally.
Faith comes by hearing, and by the Spirit.
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Raxus
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What does it mean to “be without” Jesus? A Catholic who feels depressed and tired and unsure if Jesus is really there, but willing to go through the motions of Mass and prayer and the like by an act of the will, that being informed of the truth of what Jesus asks, is going to be a lot closer to Jesus than a person who just decided that the Catholic Church “wasn’t for them” and went to someplace that they “felt closer to Jesus in”. Jesus isn’t a feeling, he’s our Lord. We do what we must even if we don’t feel like doing it, and THAT’s what God looks at.
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Raxus
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Just what do you mean by an “active and living faith”?
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lanman87
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I mean a faith that goes beyond intellectual knowledge. It is the kind of faith that trust in Christ and the work of Christ on our behalf so much that our affections (what we love) and actions (what we do) are changed to reflect our love, need, and dependence on Christ. As opposed to a dead and lifeless faith, which is just intellectual knowledge, and doesn’t cause a change in our loves or our behavior.
We can have a dead and lifeless faith and still be religious, we can take part in the life of the church, out of duty or obligation or pride, but the liturgy and services are things that we do out of habit, or any number of reasons, but they really mean nothing to us and our life away from church (when people aren’t looking) isn’t really different because of our so called “faith”.
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