Closer to God..... but farther from salvation?

[Raxus]

I mean a faith that goes beyond intellectual knowledge. It is the kind of faith that trust in Christ and the work of Christ on our behalf so much that our affections (what we love) and actions (what we do) are changed to reflect our love, need, and dependence on Christ. As opposed to a dead and lifeless faith, which is just intellectual knowledge, and doesn’t cause a change in our loves or our behavior.

We can have a dead and lifeless faith and still be religious, we can take part in the life of the church, out of duty or obligation or pride, but the liturgy and services are things that we do out of habit, or any number of reasons, but they really mean nothing to us and our life away from church (when people aren’t looking) isn’t really different because of our so called “faith”.

So, by your logic, someone who is so incredibly depressed, through no fault of their own, that they have little more to give than simply going to Mass and saying some prayers doesn’t have a meaningful relationship with God?

Man. I’ve seen some elitist statements before, but that one takes the cake. Stuff like that is why I’m Catholic, where one’s shifting emotional state doesn’t impact the meaning of their work, and a simple act of will to just get up and do something for an hour is sometimes the greatest prayer we can offer.

 

[lanman87]

So, by your logic, someone who is so incredibly depressed, through no fault of their own, that they have little more to give than simply going to Mass and saying some prayers doesn’t have a meaningful relationship with God?

Man. I’ve seen some elitist statements before, but that one takes the cake. Stuff like that is why I’m Catholic, where one’s shifting emotional state doesn’t impact the meaning of their work, and a simple at of will to just get up and do something for an hour is sometimes the greatest prayer we can offer.

I’m not talking about an emotional state. I have a very very close family member who battles depression. Faith is not an emotional state. Faith is trusting Christ. It is trusting Christ when things are good and trusting Christ in the midst of tragedy, depression, sickness, persecution and any other “horrible” thing that comes along. If all a person can do is go to mass and say a short prayer but they are truly trusting Christ, then, in my humble opinion that is a living faith. I don’t judge anyone on how they do or don’t express their faith. I don’t know what is going on in their life and what difficulties they may be dealing with. I realize people can be like the widow who “gave all she had” and others are like the rich “who give out of their abundance”

But at the same time, it is possible to attend Mass (or a Protestant Worship service) and outwardly do “Christian things” but still have a heart of stone.

My point is that if someone has a “heart of stone” while being Catholic, yet has a “heart of Flesh” while going to another church, they are better off with a “heart of Flesh” and not being Catholic than having a “heart of Stone” while being Catholic. See Ezekiel 36:26

That is why I find sad, the attitude (and apparent official teaching) by Catholics toward those who left to attend Protestant churches. The idea that they are better off going through the motions in a Catholic church than truly trusting in Christ in a Protestant church. And that attitude and teaching is one reason why I will never be Catholic. If someone left my church for the Catholic church and told me that they have found and experienced Jesus in the Catholic church and that they never really experienced Jesus in the church I attend then I would be happy for them.

I’m sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but that is how I see it.

BTW- My family member has told me that there are two things that have kept them from committing suicide. Their faith in Christ and not wanting their family to have to grieve for them.

 

[Raxus]

I’m not talking about an emotional state. I have a very very close family member who battles depression. Faith is not an emotional state. Faith is trusting Christ. It is trusting Christ when things are good and trusting Christ in the midst of tragedy, depression, sickness, persecution and any other “horrible” thing that comes along. If all a person can do is go to mass and say a short prayer but they are truly trusting Christ, then, in my humble opinion that is a living faith. I don’t judge anyone on how they do or don’t express their faith. I don’t know what is going on in their life and what difficulties they may be dealing with. I realize people can be like the widow who “gave all she had” and others are like the rich “who give out of their abundance”

We’re on the same page here.

But at the same time, it is possible to attend Mass (or a Protestant Worship service) and outwardly do “Christian things” but still have a heart of stone.

My point is that if someone has a “heart of stone” while being Catholic, yet has a “heart of Flesh” while going to another church, they are better off with a “heart of Flesh” and not being Catholic than having a “heart of Stone” while being Catholic. See Ezekiel 36:26

No, the answer for a Catholic is to look into their Faith and their life and see what is keeping them from a relationship with God, all while knowing that they already have the full truth and authority of the faith within the Catholic Church. To leave the Church over a hardened heart and go to some other denomination is like leaving the hospital when you have a broken limb and going to someone who claims to be a doctor in their living room; it may seem easier at first, but you’re not getting the care you need.

That is why I find sad, the attitude (and apparent official teaching) by Catholics toward those who left to attend Protestant churches. The idea that they are better off going through the motions in a Catholic church than truly trusting in Christ in a Protestant church.

You can’t see into their hearts nor into the future, so you have no claim to say how much they trust Christ even if they’re in a place of going through the motions.

And that attitude and teaching is one reason why I will never be Catholic.

That’s up to you. Nobody can see the future. All I can wish you is the best.

If someone left my church for the Catholic church and told me that they have found and experienced Jesus in the Catholic church and that they never really experienced Jesus in the church I attend then I would be happy for them.

You wouldn’t be curious why?

I’m sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but that is how I see it.

That’s fine. I misunderstood your first post a bit, so apologies for that.

 

[lanman87]

You can’t see into their hearts nor into the future, so you have no claim to say how much they trust Christ even if they’re in a place of going through the motions.

I don’t claim to see into anyone’s heart. But people have told me that this is their experience. They have told me that the reason they left the Catholic church is because they didn’t really believe/have faith while they were Catholic and came to faith in Christ as a Protestant. I have no reason to doubt that they are sincere.

 

[Raxus]

I don’t claim to see into anyone’s heart. But people have told me that this is their experience. They have told me that the reason they left the Catholic church is because they didn’t really believe/have faith while they were Catholic and came to faith in Christ as a Protestant. I have no reason to doubt that they are sincere.

I’m sure it felt sincere to them, but I would hazard to say that most, if not all of them, didn’t delve into their Catholic Faith. The problem I have with most protestant denoms (if not all of them) is that they seem rather shallow; show up, wave your arms, have coffee, pick a few Bible verses and shape them to fit what you’re going through or frame them in a way that answers the questions you have in a way that makes you happy.

There’s no accountability, there’s no history, there’s no challenge, there’s nothing gained. It all seems to be prettymuch just going through the motions, but more cheerfully because less is expected of you.

That sounds like a recipe for allowing the soul to settle into lukewarm slumber, to become okay with anything that would otherwise threaten to dislodge the temporary ease in which you find yourself.

It’s all the difference between “Yeah God, I trust you, I’ll say a few prayers later and think of you when I play the next guitar lick at church” vs. “God, I lost my mom and my sister and I know things are NOT alright and I DON’T trust you right now because my world has literally been taken away from me, shattered into pieces, but I DO know why I should trust you and so I’m going to do my best until I get better.”

Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way in turn, but that’s just how I see it.

 

[mcq72]

What does it mean to “be without” Jesus?

I suppose that was a rhetorical question, for you gave an answer, which was good on its’ own perspective. However it is not my perspective, or what I was talking about. …had nothing to do with “feelings”, this being " without Jesus, and being in a church was not about being in a building.

I didn’t leave a church to go to another one.

Agree that Jesus isn’t a feeling, but a person. Yet a person can give you a feeling, like when when two travelers felt a burning in their heart when they were unknowingly conversing with the risen Savior.

Being without Jesus is not being saved, born again, indwelt…the opposite of Him not “knowing” us.

 

[mcq72]

and a simple act of will to just get up and do something for an hour is sometimes the greatest prayer we can offer.

Obedience (repentance) in one area sometimes is better than a sacrifice in another.

 

[mcq72]

I’m sure it felt sincere to them, but I would hazard to say that most, if not all of them, didn’t delve into their Catholic Faith

This is the standard pooh pooh. We are tempted to say the same thing when a Protestant becomes Catholic. It is a standard defense mechanism. No one wants to think that our church can be wrong, or not given somebody a beneficial spiritual experience. But that is a hazardous way to protect our comfortable paradigm.

Having said that, for sure some may be as you allude, poorly catechized. Yet that doesn’t fit all explanations, for many are well catechized. In fact many of the reformers were clergy and some teachers. So one is still faced with the question or self examination that their testimony brings.

We don’t want to be like the Jewish leaders that doubted, questioned, even chastized the blind man Jesus healed.The blind man in a very simple but emboldened testimony proclaimed a very real and legitimate
and irrefutable experience with Jesus. Such an experience was not anti Jewish, but the very fulfillment of Jewishness.

An experience with Jesus Christ is very " catholic", even Catholic. A mystical experience it is at least, a word that should be so generic to every believer, and not just saints or extemists.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Stuff like that is why I’m Catholic, where one’s shifting emotional state doesn’t impact the meaning of their work, and a simple act of will to just get up and do something for an hour is sometimes the greatest prayer we can offer.

Thank you. I wish I could “like” this a thousand times.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I feel like this thread has people not understanding the difference between willful and invincible ignorance

A person who does wrong with instructions and a person who knows not he instructions will still get punished. Person B just gets more punished than person A. The same applies with those who leave Christ.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

No one wants to think that our church can be wrong, or not given somebody a beneficial spiritual experience. But that is a hazardous way to protect our comfortable paradigm.

It changes when you have the assurance that the Church will be kept from unsound teaching.

Others may find this arrogant.

But a Sith is better than a Jedi in this regard.

 

[mcq72]

It changes when you have the assurance that the Church will be kept from unsound.

Well, you know what they say about the details ( the Sith are in it?).

So what are the details about being kept from unsoundness? Is there a time frame involved? Is it always kept out from even entering for a second?
Is there ever reform, and for what if there is no unsoundness? Why were many councils called for, to regulate heretical non Catholic/Christian churches?

Not only do you appropriate soundness, you also appropriate the unsoundnees of any warning to the contrary.? Isn’t that exactly what happened to the Jewish leaders of Jesus’s time ?

Others may find this arrogant.

In context of my point I find it unhealthy. Self examination is then limited, confined to the existing ideology.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

So what are the details about being kept from unsoundness?

You of course remember when He gave the keys to Peter. So everyone else is appropriating. We had it from the get go.

“Only Siths deal in absolutes.” Well Christ was a person of absolutes. You’d have Christ not be sure how or with which group He should be worshiped correctly.

In context of my point I find it unhealthy. Self examination is then limited, confined to the existing ideology.

Personal opinion matters not. If this is the truth, all other existing ideologies are deficient. If I’m a carpenter, I don’t want bad tools.

 

[mcq72]

We had it from the get go

Again, how did it work ? How exactly does prevailing work?

You’d have Christ not be sure how or with which group He should be worshiped correctly.

Christ said salvation is of the Jews. The Jews were absolutely correct in the deliverance of bringing the Messiah into the world, as prophesied. How did such prevailing work? Were the Jews free from all teaching unsoundness? Were the Jews not guided by the Holy One?

 

[mcq72]

Personal opinion matters not. If this is the truth, all other existing ideologies are deficient. If I’m a carpenter, I don’t want bad tools.

The self examination is both personal (individual) and corporate. The seven letters to the Revelation churches exemplify this.

As to tools, iron sharpens iron. You limit the sharpening, as if the Orthodox and Protestants have no finished works to gaze upon also, or as if they use the tools a little differently not.

 

[mcq72]

A person who does wrong with instructions and a person who knows not he instructions will still get punished

Please refresh my memory where Lumen Gentium says seperated brethren who are born into non Catholic communities will also be punished for such.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Please refresh my memory where Lumen Gentium says seperated brethren who are born into non Catholic communities will also be punished for such.

Moving the goal posts are we now?

My point is that said Catholics who don’t no aren’t exempt from consequences.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You limit the sharpening, as if the Orthodox and Protestants have no finished works to gaze upon also, or as if they use the tools a little differently not.

They don’t regard the Papacy as a tool. So they don’t have all the tools.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Christ said salvation is of the Jews. The Jews were absolutely correct in the deliverance of bringing the Messiah into the world, as prophesied. How did such prevailing work?

And yet, Judaism never as a whole had keys of the Kingdom. Also Catholicism sees itself as fulfilled Judaism so we got that covered.

 

[mcq72]

Moving the goal posts are we now?

My point is that said Catholics who don’t no aren’t exempt from consequences.

Not sure I follow you. …Catholics who don’t what ?

My aplogies…i thought you meant “a person who knows not the instructions will still get punished” as applying to non Catholics , and a person who does wrong with them as a Catholic, in terms of knowledge/invincible knowledge…and a person that leaves Christ you said will get punished…is that person Catholic A who left CC for P church, as per opening thread post?

Don’t want to move any goal posts but just trying to clarify your post and remove any misunderstanding.