Closer to God..... but farther from salvation?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WillC
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mcq72 said:
Don’t want to move any goal posts but just trying to clarify your post and remove any misunderstanding.
Click to expand...
Knowing and leaving is a mortal sin.

Not knowing, as @fhansen said, I would say is still sinful, but just less culpability.
 
mcq72 said:
Just “used” a little differently.
Click to expand...
You could only say that for the Orthodox at best.

Protestants have long posited that the office of the Papacy is contrary to Jesus’ demands.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
And yet, Judaism never as a whole had keys of the Kingdom.
Click to expand...
So as a theocratic kingdom and later with a visible king, they had no keys, they were not God’s finger into humanity, light and salvation of the world? You don’t think the keys were taken from them, foefeited, and given to the apostles?
 
Last edited:
Julius_Caesar said:
Protestants have long posited that the office of the Papacy is contrary to Jesus’ demands.
Click to expand...
That’s not entirely true. Like the Orthodox, the early protestants more seemed to hold that infallibility was the problem. (And he was more of a king in the medieval times)
 
BornInMarch said:
…

I’m glad somebody on this thread understands that demanding blind loyalty isn’t going to convince people to stay with the Church.
Click to expand...
Not demands or reason, …
John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Julius_Caesar said:
Not knowing, as @fhansen said, I would say is still sinful, but just less culpability.
Click to expand...
So leaving Catholic church regardless of knowlege is still culpable and punishable per your words? I mean I get it just not sure LG words it that way. At most they may say we may be salvifically at lower odds.
 
Last edited:
Vico said:
John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Click to expand...
I have often heard here that this was said to the apostles therefore is primarily for their respective successors…to be fair some have said for lay people also, but only as a secondary understanding ( with no authority or formally insufficient?).

Otherwise totally agree, and like St. Augustine wrote, though recognizing authority of Scripture and teaching of church (St. Ambrose for him), still ultimately said " …He teaches us". Or as Elihu says in Job, that God puts the understanding in a man.
 
Last edited:
mcq72 said:
So as a theocratic kingdom and later with a visible king, they had no keys, they were not God’s finger into humanity, light and salvation of the world?
Click to expand...
The whole of the Old Testament proves that they often were the opposite of that.
 
mcq72 said:
40.png
Vico:
John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Click to expand...
I have often heard here that this was said to the apostles therefore is primarily for their respective successors…to be fair some have said for lay people also, but only as a secondary understanding ( with no authority?).
Click to expand...
Because of the Holy Spirit sent to the Apostles we have the Church with the administration of the sacraments, which bring the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. Also we have in addition the actual grace of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 15
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know, that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knoweth the hearts, gave testimony, giving unto them the Holy Ghost, as well as to us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore, why tempt you God to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.
Click to expand...
 
While guidance to the Church specifically is necessary for many reasons, it does little good if the “knowledge of God” as it’s sometimes called is given to a few only. Jesus came to reveal God to all in a new and more direct or personal manner, so that all may be saved, cf John 17:3. And I Cor 13:12 shines light on this supernatural gift of knowledge even as it’s also limited in this life:
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

To truly know and hold to the truths of our faith at all is impossible without grace.
 
Last edited:
Vico said:
Because of the Holy Spirit sent to the Apostles we have the Church with the administration of the sacraments, which bring the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. Also we have in addition the actual grace of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Ok, but still a distinction ?
 
mcq72 said:
40.png
Vico:
Because of the Holy Spirit sent to the Apostles we have the Church with the administration of the sacraments, which bring the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. Also we have in addition the actual grace of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Ok, but still a distinction ?
Click to expand...
Yes, more of the faithful than just the Apostles received the Holy Spirit, but not all at Pentecost.

Acts 2
1 And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place:
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue.
…
37 Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren?
38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Click to expand...
 
Many people outside the CC have genuine faith-but not based on the fullness of truth that the Church possesses. And presumably it might be said that none of us as individuals possess the truth perfectly. So God judges by the heart as only He can know it and a lot of that has to do first of all with how hard we’ve tried to find and live the truth, how much we’ve sought Him. The Church, in any case, stands as the sole pinnacle of the earthly vessel holding Christian truth.
 
Last edited:
Julius_Caesar said:
And who’s to say ex Catholics didn’t have this grace?
Click to expand...
I just caught the gist of this. If they had this grace and dismissed it later then they dismissed God’s will in that sense. And would need to have a change of heart and repent. It simply depends on the knowledge/revelation we’ve had-and how we respond to it.

Either way as an ex-Catholic in my youth I would later come to simply believe as I sought God/Truth for myself. Later yet, as I came to agree with the Church, I returned. There’s a practical aspect to some of this, reminding me of a quote from Samuel Clemens:

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

Sometimes I wonder if people really agree with the Church, in which case they’ll actually cherish her, or are just afraid not to. And we have to realize that none of us begin with faith-and the knowledge that constitutes its object. I think Socrates said something to the effect that until we admit we don’t know, then we can’t learn-we can’t obtain that knowledge-simply enough. Anyway, the whole thing is a process- a journey that God put creation on, “journeying to perfection” as the Church refers to it. With man we’re expected to get on board-responding to grace and knowledge the best we’re able.
 
Last edited:
fhansen said:
Many people outside the CC have genuine faith-but not based on the fullness of truth that the Church possesses
Click to expand...
But we are talking about those who leave. Once you’re in you have access to the fullness of Truth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top