Closet orthodoxy in eastern catholicism

[dvdjs]

I must agree that anti-anything is no reason to convert. I was always taken aback as a Ruthenian Catholic when the Ruthenians were anti-Ukrainian Catholic…and the Ukrainian Catholics were anti Roman Catholic…and the Roman Catholics hated us because they refused to believe we were not Orthodox…and the Ruthenians became incensed at the Melkites because they used the word “Orthodox” in the DL…etc., etc., etc…

Well mileages varies as they say, but your limited experience is vastly different than mine. Trouble withe Melkites? Really? Roman Catholics - in your time? I would be interested in some fact checking.

 

[mardukm]

The Annuario Pontifico numbers (2008) for the USA Ruthenian membership are:

1990 268161
2000 142820
2005 99381
2007 96761
2008 94829

Where are they going to?

Blessings

 

[Cecilianus]

The numbers do make pose a problem for vocations. On the other hand, the Phoenix Eparchy has about 3000 faithful and three seminarians - and stunning vocation rate. One parish in the Parma eparchy produced a deacon, a woman monastic, and two seminarians in the past five years.

That Parma parish might be mine - do you know where the parish is?

 

[dvdjs]

I’ve seen mixed news. One vibrant but tiny Ruthenian parish I went to is losing its pastor - although it brings in Protestant converts into the Church on most years; an equally tiny Ukrainian parish seems to have shut down, or at least is no longer active every Sunday, but the Ruthenian parish I go to now is booming, has young priests with a young deacon and a young reader (in the seminary), and another young seminarian. Overall, I’m hopeful - God is perfectly capable of taking care of His own.

Me too.

 

[Cecilianus]

Where are they going to?

Blessings

It is reasonable that most would be heading to the Western Church, which they don’t have to drive for an hour to each way. That was the main reason why Italo-Greek Catholicism died.

 

[dvdjs]

That Parma parish might be mine - do you know where the parish is?

I was talking of Brecksville, but you sound like you are in Mentor.

 

[Cecilianus]

I was talking of Brecksville, but you sound like you are in Mentor.

At the moment (I travel a lot, so I’m never in one parish for long) I’m in Columbus. I guess there’s a lot of good news then.

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Allyson,

Yes, I would guess that there may be that element for some or many who go in that direction at some point. I can not say though that that is true for my friends to date. I met one person recently who was an Anglican convert into Eastern Catholicism, and he left over the RDL. Kinda SSPXy, eh?

I could never be attracted to anti-Catholic rhetoric or misconception of Latin teachings, so if someone was there may be a more serious issue beyond being attracted to being more Eastern. I went to Penn State, and there Gary the Willard (Building) Preacher was a protestant convert to the OCA. I think that he had discovered tradition, but was still so anti-Catholic, that he could not conceive of becoming Catholic.

I’ve never had a problem with Catholics going over to Orthodoxy to be spiritually fed. What I find absolutely wrong, however, is for those people to join Orthodoxy because they have been imbued with misconceptions of the Catholic Faith. In view of that, it’s almost acceptable to have people join a local Orthodox parish just because of the Liturgy (though the Liturgy, as I’m sure everyone will agree, is certainly not a sufficient reason to leave/join any Church).

I am all for living out fully the Eastern tradition as an Eastern Catholic.

Awesome!

I think that as far as anti-Orthodoxy, it depends on your formation as a Latin Catholic. Certainly for me it was not present in my Catechesis, and this would be by and large the expereince of most Latin Catholics. However, I would not be surprised if anti-Orthodoxy did exist in some more traditional circles. I once went to the TR near home with a visiting friend, and the husband of his friend there was very obviously disgusted that I would change from the Latin Rite to an Eastern Catholic Rite. I believe he really felt that the Tridentine Rite/Latin Church was superior to all others, even though he thought that the DL was beautiful. He had at one time been in the SSPX.

I can agree with that. I’ve encountered those types of Catholics too. Like you said, they are normally from traditionalist circles.

Blessings

 

[Vico]

Where are they going to?

Blessings

I suspect they are becoming non-religious.

Catholics are moving from cities in the Northeast and Midwest to the suburbs, South and Southwest. (Many small immigrant coal-mining towns are in the Northeast.)

Also, the increase in Catholics in the USA is from Hispanic or Latino families, and they have 2.9 children per family. Expected Hispanic growth is 300% in the next 40 years (from 2009).

Half of the Catholic priests are expected to be age 70 or greater by 2020 and this can lead to closure of churches I suspect.

fordham.edu/Campus_Resources/eNewsroom/topstories_1736.asp

 

[Hesychios]

I think the “anti-Catholic” theory is an old canard. People who think like that don’t spend much time in Eastern Catholic parishes.

I am all for living out fully the Eastern tradition as an Eastern Catholic.

It is not just about living the eastern tradition. It is about belief.

But even there, in the ‘living it out’ it is entirely optional in eastern Catholicism. My old parish was a good example of that. It was well attended, even before the radio program we had well over two hundred souls on most Sundays. But it was a real cast of characters. Some thought that they had become Orthodox (not the Nash, but usually the newbies like me) and some were horrified by such a possible expression to describe them. The numbers of Opus Dei members and former SSPX were noticeable in such a small parish.

What we had there was a ‘big tent’. It had something for everyone, and really that was part of what had to be done to save it from going under.

Suffice it to say the “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” crowd was never very numerous in the BCC, and never will be, it was just a handful of people in my parish but they tended to be internet savvy and vocal.

 

[Hesychios]

The Annuario Pontifico numbers (2008) for the USA Ruthenian membership are:

1990 268161
2000 142820
2005 99381
2007 96761
2008 94829

What is troubling me about these numbers is that according to canon law, some people are technically Ruthenian regardless of which church they attend, and I am surprised that they are not reported that way. In other words most of these (usually younger generation) people do not make formal applications to transfer canonically, in fact it has been reported here that sometimes such transfers are refused. So in the Latin parish records these people should be recorded as Ruthenians, obviously they are not being reported as Ruthenians for purposes of the Annuario Pontificio.

It is also not clear to me whether the Latins who attend the BCC parishes are counted as Latins, or reported as Ruthenians.

Not that it matters in the big scheme of things.

It is an interesting process to watch, if nonetheless saddening. One can see that same thing happening here in China, for different reasons.

This is the diocese I live in today in the People’s Republic of China, the figures shown are the last available. It is clear that most of the priests and nuns were missionaries, because the official total membership of the whole diocese was about 2,000 people, but they had 21 priests. They had a hospital and schools, now all gone.

Today there is just this one little parish, as small as a typical Ruthenian parish. The floorboards are cracking and the pews are scratched and worn, some of the doors hang slightly askew in a characteristically Chinese way. But the place looks freshly painted and the altar is immaculate. It is clear God is loved here.

Many of the communicants seem to be Koreans and other foreigners like me so it is really hard to assess how strong the community actually is. There is no question that the diocese went into collapse and the lone surviving parish is not going to last if they cannot keep finding willing men to be priests.

So it is legitimate to ask what went wrong here, there are plenty of reasons, and it is worthy of discussion. The same is true of the Ruthenian situation, it is something that happens and can be discussed objectively. It does no good to bury one’s head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong, especially if anyone is going to launch a serious attempt to turn the situation around.

The accusations that it is the ‘outsiders’ talking about the collapse makes me laugh. The statistics are readily available from Catholic sources, and the witness of Catholic people who see it in their own parishes. The Catholic pastors preach on the crises in their homilies, I have heard them.

 

[Hesychios]

I suspect they are becoming non-religious.

There is certainly a lot of that going on, from every church: Orthodox, Catholic & mainline Protestant.

Most Byzantines will pass through the Latin church before that though.

I remember visiting one of those extremely large Latin mega-parishes in the suburbs very close to our BCC parish (there were several like it surrounding ours). I remember reading through the bulletin as I always liked to do, this particular parish was getting ready for Confirmation and the list of childrens names was very long.

But what struck me most thoroughly was the large number of clearly Rusyn and Ukrainian surnames, there may have been thirty or forty obvious ones. I spoke to my pastor later and he agreed that most of the names I pointed out were indeed Rusyn, and he lamented the fact that we had thus far been unable to interest these kinds of families to at least come and visit. The numbers of other children with Irish, German and Polish names who also had Rusyn/Slovak/Ukrainian heritage must have been at least as numerous. And, as I said, this was just one of several nearby Latin Catholic parishes (we straddled the border between two populous Latin dioceses)

I eventually formed the opinion that they were not coming back, and it was a waste of effort. The spirituality needed to be shared with everyone, especially Protestants, the unchurched and non-Christians; and if they somehow serendipitously discovered that they had ancestors in the church tradition, what a happy accident! But it can never be the basis for pulling people in for a look-see. People will not come for that reason, and perhaps God doesn’t want people to use that reason for finding a church anyway.

 

[Hesychios]

Same here. Part of the problem between the Ukrainians and the Ruthenians is that they really aren’t separate nationalities;

This is a very challenging assertion.

The people involved may or may not agree, but whatever they think they will feel it very strongly.

Is this like saying Austrians are not really any different than Germans? … or is it more like saying Canadians aren’t really any different from Americans? How can we tell?

the different hierarchies were created in the 1900s (1927, I think) when there was a danger of the Ukrainian Church becoming more populated than the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania. A brilliant decision by the Third Council of Baltimore had forbad the creation of a Roman Catholic province in Pennsylvania if Eastern Catholics out-populated Romans, but they needed such a province by this point. Easy solution: Invent a distinction between Ukrainians and Ruthenians.

This is a most astonishing thing to read. Not that I disbelieve you (I find it unlikely, not unbelievable), but that I have never encountered the topic before.

Do you have references or articles to substantiate or elaborate on this?

 

[Vico]

Same here. Part of the problem between the Ukrainians and the Ruthenians is that they really aren’t separate nationalities; the different hierarchies were created in the 1900s (1927, I think) when there was a danger of the Ukrainian Church becoming more populated than the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania. A brilliant decision by the Third Council of Baltimore had forbad the creation of a Roman Catholic province in Pennsylvania if Eastern Catholics out-populated Romans, but they needed such a province by this point. Easy solution: Invent a distinction between Ukrainians and Ruthenians.

There was sworn allegiance of the bishop to Hungary to contend with also, and US faithful demanding a bishop either Ukrainian or Hungarian to match their identification.

Also there are different languages, custome, and variations of the Divine Liturgy, etc., even though there may be a common genetic background. And genetics is certainly significant because the Father’s ritual church is generally the inherited one.

A person in Carpatho-Ukraine born in 1914 and living 85 years in the same location, could have had six nationalities:

1867 Austro-Hungary
1919 Czechoslovakia
1939 Carpatho-Ukraine independence (24 hours)
1939 Hungary
1945 USSR
1991 Ukraine

(U) = Ukrainian Church sui iuris
(R) = Ruthenian Church sui iuris

Eparchy Timeline through 1963:
? Lemkowszczyzna (U)
? Kamyanets (U)
1087 Przemysl (U)
1596 Union of Brest (Poland) (U)
1646 Union of Ungvar (Hungary) (R)
1677 Lviv (U) (later moved to Kiev)
1771 Mukacheve (R)
1777 Krizevci (Croatian)
1818 Presov (Slovak)
1885 Ivano-Frankivsk (U)
1912 Canadian Exarchate (U)
1912 Hajdudorog (Hungarian)
1919 Czechoslovakia
1922 Ukrainian SSRR
1924 Apostolic Exarchate Miskolc (Hungarian)
1924 Ukrainian Exarchate USA 1924 – Bishop Constantine Bohachevsky (U)
1924 Ruthenian Exarchate USA 1924 – Bishop Basil Takach (R)
1938 Czechoslovakia, Carpatho-Ukraine autonomy
1939 Carpatho-Ukraine independence (24 hours)
1939 Hungary takes Carpatho-Ukraine
1945 USSR takes Carpatho-Ukraine
1958 Metropolitan Archeparchy of Philadelphia from Exarchate (U)
1963 Eparchy of Pittsburgh from Exarchate (R)

 

[Mickey]

The problem is that what Orthodox catechesis points out as Catholic “errors” are either not errors at all

I believe that they are. And I believe that Scripture and Tradition shows as much.

But Orthodox catechesis often paints these matters as heresy.

I believe heterodox is a more apt descriptor.

I wonder that you were ever Catholic

Your ad hominems do not affect me. That is a poor apologetic. LOL! I am fairly well educated on both sides. After much prayer, study and discernment, I came to see Holy Orthodoxy as the fullness of truth.

How in the world did your understanding of the Catholic Faith do such a 180 unless there was some active effort to convince you to do so?

LOL! You are the king of drama. It was far from 180 degrees. I am the first to admit to the vast similarites between Holy Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholicism. On a forum, the differences are magnified and people beat them into the ground.

The active effort in my conversion was the Holy Spirit–Who opened my eyes. It was an amazing experience.

 

[Mickey]

Well mileages varies as they say

Indeed!

in your time?

Yes, in my time. It was very sad for me to hear.

 

[dvdjs]

…
So it is legitimate to ask what went wrong here, there are plenty of reasons, and it is worthy of discussion. The same is true of the Ruthenian situation, it is something that happens and can be discussed objectively. It does no good to bury one’s head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong, especially if anyone is going to launch a serious attempt to turn the situation around. The accusations that it is the ‘outsiders’ talking about the collapse makes me laugh. The statistics are readily available from Catholic sources…

Your post here implcitly admits that you don’t know precisely what the numbers mean. Yet you hold to them as thought their interpretation were self-evident, and have the smugness to laugh at criticism of your extreme view.

There have in fact been discussions in several posts in this thread about what has gone wrong, and where people went. There will be have to be adjustments to the staffing of parishes scattered in small coal towns in PA - the OCA does the same. But as I like to say to alarmists: call me when we hit Melkite levels. If interested in an accurate portrayal of the state of affairs, for example on Parma vocations, you might check what you have heard against actual, contemporary facts.

So in the end, what is your real point? That if one done not adopt the most extreme view that one’s head is buried in the sand? To point to collapse as an alarm to jump ship? I am happy to participate in a a discussion of what has gone wrong and what we can do to improve things. But to be worthwhile, such a discussion needs to be grounded in actual facts, not just “statistics” or what someone heard someone say.

 

[dvdjs]

Indeed!
Yes, in my time. It was very sad for me to hear.

Then please elaborate so that your ostensible facts can be checked.

 

[Mickey]

Then please elaborate so that your ostensible facts can be checked.

My ostensible facts?!? What are you talking about? These are my personal experiences as a member of the Ruthenian Catholic Church. Do you really think that I am going to give you names and phone numbers on an internet forum? LOL!

 

[dvdjs]

My ostensible facts?!? What are you talking about? These are my personal experiences as a member of the Ruthenian Catholic Church. Do you really think that I am going to give you names and phone numbers on an internet forum? LOL!

What I really think is that you post “experiences” - ostensibly sad to hear, but not too sad to repeat - that are not subject to verification, or clarification by the original source. In a word: gossip.