Cloud of Unknowing

  • Thread starter Thread starter Greg27
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Bookcat said:
Such can be said not to represent what is in the Cloud of Unknowing…but we really can not discuss what has been called Centering Prayer – for Centering Prayer is not a permitted topic of discussion on Catholic Answers Forum --any questions one may direct them to the Catholic Answers Apologists --as is noted in the “sticky” up top.

The “ways of mental prayer” you mentioned is a wonderful classic text --I have one from the 1920’s or there abouts 👍
Click to expand...
I mentioned Centering Prayer only as a matter of notation because its written in the Cloud of Unknowing. Unless of course those who moderate this site feel the spiritual classic the Cloud of Unknowing should be banned. The Ways of Mental Prayer doesn’t specifically use such terminology but their is close resemblance, as does Saint John of the Cross makes reference to.

I think you got caught up in the catch phrase mention of yoga which the Church warns against.
 
Lets not bring up the banned topic.

(I plan to not respond …so please do not post to me on the subject :))
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It’s an absolutely beautiful book with much wisdom on contemplative prayer.

I practice the quiet prayer method as described in the Cloud. That being said, it’s not the only writing in the Church on the subject. The writings of resting in the stillness of God’s presence is the heart of contemplative prayer going back to the 4th century fathers of the desert.

I’m glad that the Lord has blessed you with this work and it’s touching your heart. People often find the Cloud difficult to understand.

Jim
Click to expand...
Thanks, I also practice it, though I also practice the form of meditation talked about by John Main and Laurence Freeman. It was works like the Cloud that attracted me to the Catholic Church in the first place (and I might say, also made me return to the practice of the faith after losing it).

Sadly a lot of people think contemplative prayer is just the New Age or Eastern mysticism in disguise, which is probably not helped by the statements of some mystics taken literally (i.e. Eckhart). But I am reassured these criticisms can be answered by the fact the writer of the Cloud wrote at a time and in a place certainly not influenced by any Eastern religion. I think the loss of many Christians to Eastern religions like Buddhism could be stemmed though if the Christian church did more to recover its contemplative traditions.
 
It was stated in this thread that “the author explains, the work is not meant for beginners but for those already advanced in the spiritual life.”

He never says this.

He says in the prolog, that this book is only for those who are deeply committed to follow Jesus Christ perfectly. In other words, this can be any person who is drawn by the grace of God toward contemplation.
He goes on to say, that worldly gossips, flatterers, the scrupulous, talebearers, busybodies and the hypercritical, he would rather they never laid eyes on the book and he had no intention of writing for them, and goes on to say, this also applies to the curious, educated or not.

In other words, if Christ could’ve came into your life recently and through his grace drew you to the “Cloud of Unknowing.”

On the other hand, a person with a PHD in Theology who picks up the book out of mere curiosity or for as an intellectual exercise in order to defend an argument he’s engaged in, they will not only get nothing out of it, but may misunderstand it and proceed to spread their errors to others.

God leads we follow.

If Our Lord and Savior brought you The Cloud of Unknowing, you’ll know immediately when you begin to read it. The words will speak from the pages and into depth of your being.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It was stated in this thread that “the author explains, the work is not meant for beginners but for those already advanced in the spiritual life.”

He never says this.

He says in the prolog, that this book is only for those who are deeply committed to follow Jesus Christ perfectly. In other words, this can be any person who is drawn by the grace of God toward contemplation.
He goes on to say, that worldly gossips, flatterers, the scrupulous, talebearers, busybodies and the hypercritical, he would rather they never laid eyes on the book and he had no intention of writing for them, and goes on to say, this also applies to the curious, educated or not.

In other words, if Christ could’ve came into your life recently and through his grace drew you to the “Cloud of Unknowing.”

On the other hand, a person with a PHD in Theology who picks up the book out of mere curiosity or for as an intellectual exercise in order to defend an argument he’s engaged in, they will not only get nothing out of it, but may misunderstand it and proceed to spread their errors to others.

God leads we follow.

If Our Lord and Savior brought you The Cloud of Unknowing, you’ll know immediately when you begin to read it. The words will speak from the pages and into depth of your being.

Jim
Click to expand...
THANK YOU for explaining this. :thankyou:

It has been long enough since I read the Cloud, and sooo many times I’ve heard this bizarre claim about The Cloud (and even contemplative prayer in general) apparently being reserved for an elite group of “advanced” Christians, so many times, that I had no defense against it short of going back and rereading it and rediscovering what you just posted. :banghead:

Thanks for turning the power back on for me, as relates to the Cloud. :tiphat:

Alan
 
There are various approaches to prayer …indeed to contemplation (both acquired and infused) …various schools of thought…various writers…various ways of discussing such…etc
 
Bookcat said:
The Catholic Dictionary on the subject :

catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=32592
Click to expand...
Yes, I see where that reference claims the author of the Cloud says it’s for the spiritually advanced.

Since we have a poster whose knowledge of the Cloud I trust, taking issue with it the next thing was what are the credentials:

“All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.”

I’ve chased a number of links, and so far haven’t found an imprimatur or anything. When I went to John Hardon’s “official” site, they didn’t have any links to the dictionary online. Instead they were hawking hardcover version for $26.95, and softcover for $15.95 – one penny higher than the Amazon price for the softcover – and no “look inside this book” so I can see if there is an imprimatur. Amazon also sells a “pocket” version for only $10.96, but this was not available directly from Hardon’s site.

I thought it was strange that they had no “look inside this book” at amazon, but obviously somebody involved with that book knows how to keep amazon informed, because they are taking $13.59 preorders for an “abridged and updated” edition that isn’t going to be out until Jun 25, 2013.

So I’ll tentatively stick with Jim’s interpretation of it for now. Who knows, maybe the new abridged and updated version will get it right? :rolleyes: … 🤷

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Yes, I see where that reference claims the author of the Cloud says it’s for the spiritually advanced.

Since we have a poster whose knowledge of the Cloud I trust, taking issue with it the next thing was what are the credentials:

“All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.”
Click to expand...
Yes such is from Catholic Theologian Fr. Hardon (his cause is being promoted. is he a Servant of God now?..I forget…I saw him in the flesh once while in Steubenville before he left for his eternal reward… )
 
The side question of contemplation (either acquired or infused) being a possibility for many or few is a different question-- beyond a single work from the middle ages.
 
Bookcat said:
There are various approaches to prayer …indeed to contemplation (both acquired and infused) …various schools of thought…various writers…various ways of discussing such…etc
Click to expand...
The Cloud for example is an example of a very apophatic mystical theology.
 
Bookcat said:
The side question of contemplation (either acquired or infused) being a possibility for many or few is a different question-- beyond a single work from the middle ages.
Click to expand...
So you have any personal opinions on how many people might be open to contemplation … available to receive, or whatever? Or what does and does not dispose a person to receiving this gift?
Bookcat said:
The Cloud for example is an example of a very apophatic mystical theology.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I forgot that word “apophatic” … it’s a useful term so I’m glad you brought it to mind.

Alan
 
Bookcat said:
The Cloud for example is an example of a very apophatic mystical theology.
Click to expand...
Only in terms of the images we have created about God. St. John of the Cross teaches detachment from our ideas and images we have in created in our mind about God. These are not God, but our own creation.

In other words, we have a Cloud of Unknowing to go through in order to know God as He is, which of course can only be known through love.

Jim
 
40.png
Bookcat:
How many times are you going to post this link with the erroneous definition?

The link said that the author states that the Cloud of Unknowing is not for beginners, but he never wrote this.

Jim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top