Cloud of Unknowing

[AlanFromWichita]

But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t “pray”, God wants us to pray its just that prayer takes on a different meaning and form at these deeper levels of contemplation. It is no longer a matter of asking God for “this and that” or to remove this or that, rather it silent communication with God as the ground of our very being and complete unity with his will in all things. Prayer becomes a movement away from self to God:

This is actually how it became for me, and it was a wonderful recognition. After I realized this silent communication was going on, my “Dark Night” got first more extreme, then in the next few months it calmed down, until my eyes were opened. Every symptom compares to what Jesus called being “born of spirit” or “entering the kingdom.”

And where does that leave me? Happy and thankful. And serene. And others who know me personally are not only noticing it, but finding new levels of healing themselves.

I’ve written and erased several paragraphs about five times because I don’t want to come off like I’m bragging. No doubt the way I thought played a role, but in the grander scheme, I did nothing. I just was, and God animated the world including this thing I call my body. Spirits influenced the body and its associated mind to go this way and then that, and now here I am. :egyptian:

I’m going to leave it, though, because the Lord has worked a miracle and entrusted me to witness it! And I think people need to know that the Lord can and does heal, and I mean heal. In my case, healed my psychosis beyond medical expectation or even hope.

If you want to call me down for elevating myself, I completely understand. But I do not want any kind words on my own behalf because it would expose a terrible sin I have in thinking I need to post this at all.

Alan

 

[DBT]

Hi Alan -

Why would anyone want to “call you down?” You’re praising God not yourself … simply describing the good things He has done in you. True contemplative prayer is, by definition, transformative … you’re a living testament to that!

Dave

 

[Vouthon]

Hi Alan -

Why would anyone want to “call you down?” You’re praising God not yourself … simply describing the good things He has done in you. True contemplative prayer is, by definition, transformative … you’re a living testament to that!

Dave

Amen to that!

To die to oneself means to renounce one’s egocentric needs and re-direct the focus away from self and self-satisfaction, to the Will of God. It calls for a radical re-orientation of our interests, which ultimately will result in a state of self-naughting, the absolute Valley of Poverty and Nothingness. .

Our brother Alan is simply a true contemplative who has descended to the very depths of humility, the crown of the virtues, such that he does not want to draw attention to “Himself” and his experiences but rather offer up all praise to the glory of God.

He understands perfectly that everything he is and has; he is and has in God and not in himself.

As Johannes Tauler explained:

"…When our Lord has prepared a person in this unbearable state of misery - for this prepares him much better than all the spiritual practices that all people might be able to accomplish - then our Lord comes and leads him to the third stage. In this stage the Lord removes the cloak from his eyes and reveals the truth to him. Bright sunshine appears and lifts him right out of all his misery. It seems to this person just as though the Lord had raised him from the dead. In this stage the Lord leads a person out of himself into himself. He makes him forget all his former loneliness and heals all his wounds. God thus draws the person out of his human mode into a divine mode, out of all misery into divine security. Here a person becomes so divinized that everything he is and does God does and is in him. And he is lifted up so far above his natural state that he becomes through Grace what God in his essence is by nature. In this state a person feels and is aware that he has lost himself and does not at all feel himself or is he aware of himself. He is aware of nothing but one simple Being.

Children, to be truly in this stage is the deepest ground of genuine humility and annihilation. This, in truth, cannot be grasped by the senses. For here he receives the most profound insight possible into his nothingness. Here he sinks as deep as it is possible into the ground of humility; the deeper, the higher, because here high and deep are one and the same…In this state one achieves true unity of prayer spoken of in the epistle that truly brings it about that a person becomes one with God…"

***- Johannes Tauler (c.1300-1361), Catholic mystic and Dominican ***

Bravo brother Alan! I deeply appreciate your sharing of your own experience

Do not let your great humility prevent you from sharing something with us that could be beneficial to our growth in holiness.

 

[Samson01]

Thanks everyone for confirming what I thought. Something about the lessons that has me wondering, usually they are in retrospect, sometimes by seconds and minutes. Sometimes if I’m not aware, longer. Once an opportunity arose and as I fought to find the words and prayed on it. Then I noticed the subject was wearing an “Ask me about the National Guard” PT shirt. So I did and we had a very important conversation…a life saving one. It didn’t feel like me talking , just passing along a messege. Has anyone noticed this when out and about, that opportunities come up? Thanks, Tim

 

[Vouthon]

Thanks everyone for confirming what I thought. Something about the lessons that has me wondering, usually they are in retrospect, sometimes by seconds and minutes. Sometimes if I’m not aware, longer. Once an opportunity arose and as I fought to find the words and prayed on it. Then I noticed the subject was wearing an “Ask me about the National Guard” PT shirt. So I did and we had a very important conversation…a life saving one. It didn’t feel like me talking , just passing along a messege. Has anyone noticed this when out and about, that opportunities come up? Thanks, Tim

Fascinating!

“…If you lose an opportunity you will be like one who lets the bird fly away; you will never get it back…”

***- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), Catholic mystic & Doctor of the Church ***

Clearly, you discerned the sign of God and the opportunity for spiritual growth and took it.

 

[Samson01]

Fascinating!

Clearly, you discerned the sign of God and the opportunity for spiritual growth and took it.

Thankfullly He’s patient with me as I’m a slow student.

 

[Vouthon]

Thankfullly He’s patient with me as I’m a slow student.

I’m sure your not as slow as me, I’m a bit like Jonah. I’ve did a lot of fleeing in my life and have lost many opportunities for spiritual growth through poor decisions, my weakness of character and personal troubles. I’m in the process of growth as we speak and I’m still failing miserably at times, although my faith in God’s grace and mercy is strong, Thanks be to God

 

[J_Peterson]

Thanks everyone for confirming what I thought. Something about the lessons that has me wondering, usually they are in retrospect, sometimes by seconds and minutes. Sometimes if I’m not aware, longer. Once an opportunity arose and as I fought to find the words and prayed on it. Then I noticed the subject was wearing an “Ask me about the National Guard” PT shirt. So I did and we had a very important conversation…a life saving one. It didn’t feel like me talking , just passing along a messege. Has anyone noticed this when out and about, that opportunities come up? Thanks, Tim

Recently I was walking to a work function along a busy Boston street and I saw a young girl begging and being ignored by the hundreds of people passing by. She was crying in a way that implied despair. I don’t feel like I acted on my own, kind of went into a fog and emptied my pockets into her cup, we looked at each other and she silently said thank you. It happened so quick and I felt like I had to fight back tears afterwards.

This one tiny, seemingly insignificant moment brought me closer to Christ than any other I can think of. I feel like I understand more clearly what He meant by: whatever you do to the least of your brothers you do to me (paraphrasing due to laziness). That brief fraction of a second long moment we shared was Christ and in that moment we were both transformed into Christ, one in his sorrow and one in his mercy. This is my interpretation after thinking about it for a couple days anyway.

I couldn’t imagine what would have happend if I passed up that moment, I think it would have been a mortal sin.

 

[Samson01]

I’m sure your not as slow as me, I’m a bit like Jonah. I’ve did a lot of fleeing in my life and have lost many opportunities for spiritual growth through poor decisions, my weakness of character and personal troubles. I’m in the process of growth as we speak and I’m still failing miserably at times, although my faith in God’s grace and mercy is strong, Thanks be to God

Isn’t life usually in constant repair of some sort? Sounds like you have it together pretty good. Being able to digest some of this deep spirituality can’t be easy. It’s good to have folks onboard who, not only can talk of their experience’s, but can relate it to these writings in the present day world. My own start of conversion was a powerful intervention…it had to be done this way I believe. The Lord didn’t explain it though and my thirst for what and how was very alive for awhile. At one time the traps and snares were overwhelming and I tried to outsmart adversity… learning to let it go more and more now and just appreciate things a bit these days. Tim

 

[Samson01]

Recently I was walking to a work function along a busy Boston street and I saw a young girl begging and being ignored by the hundreds of people passing by. She was crying in a way that implied despair. I don’t feel like I acted on my own, kind of went into a fog and emptied my pockets into her cup, we looked at each other and she silently said thank you. It happened so quick and I felt like I had to fight back tears afterwards.

This one tiny, seemingly insignificant moment brought me closer to Christ than any other I can think of. I feel like I understand more clearly what He meant by: whatever you do to the least of your brothers you do to me (paraphrasing due to laziness). That brief fraction of a second long moment we shared was Christ and in that moment we were both transformed into Christ, one in his sorrow and one in his mercy. This is my interpretation after thinking about it for a couple days anyway.

I couldn’t imagine what would have happend if I passed up that moment, I think it would have been a mortal sin.

I know the feeling…thanks be to God for these opportunities. These are consolations after what I believe was a dark night of some kind. I know you will cherish them. Tim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave.
yes, readiness would be the word, not beginner.

When we understand that it is God who brings to contemplation, and that he does so when we are “ready,” we will begin to grow in it.

I remember years ago, when I decided to read St Teresa’s Way of Perfection. It made no sense. About five years later, when I was introduced to my first OCDS meeting, I went home and picked up the same book and began to devour it. Suddenly, it all made sense. This was because when I first tried to read the book, I was not ready. Later, when God led me to it, I was ready.

So it is in the Cloud of Unknowing. The translation I have, no where does he say that the book is not for beginners, but he says that if the words he has written make no sense, then it’s probably not for you, i.e… you’re not ready.

Jim

 

[Vouthon]

Recently I was walking to a work function along a busy Boston street and I saw a young girl begging and being ignored by the hundreds of people passing by. She was crying in a way that implied despair. I don’t feel like I acted on my own, kind of went into a fog and emptied my pockets into her cup, we looked at each other and she silently said thank you. It happened so quick and I felt like I had to fight back tears afterwards.

This one tiny, seemingly insignificant moment brought me closer to Christ than any other I can think of. I feel like I understand more clearly what He meant by: whatever you do to the least of your brothers you do to me (paraphrasing due to laziness). That brief fraction of a second long moment we shared was Christ and in that moment we were both transformed into Christ, one in his sorrow and one in his mercy. This is my interpretation after thinking about it for a couple days anyway.

I couldn’t imagine what would have happend if I passed up that moment, I think it would have been a mortal sin.

That is so beautiful Peterson What a powerful spiritual episode of Christ’s presence.

It reminds me of what Saint Teresa and Saint Symeon once said:

"…We awaken in Christ’s body
as Christ awakens our bodies,
and my poor hand is Christ, He enters
my foot, and is infinitely me.

I move my hand, and wonderfully
my hand becomes Christ, becomes all of Him
(for God is indivisibly
whole, seamless in His Godhood).

I move my foot, and at once
He appears like a flash of lightning.
Do my words seem blasphemous? – Then
open your heart to Him

and let yourself receive the one
who is opening to you so deeply.
For if we genuinely love Him,
we wake up inside Christ’s body

where all our body, all over,
every most hidden part of it,
is realized in joy as Him,
and He makes us, utterly, real,

and everything that is hurt, everything
that seemed to us dark, harsh, shameful,
maimed, ugly, irreparably
damaged, is in Him transformed

and recognized as whole, as lovely,
and radiant in His light
he awakens as the Beloved
in every last part of our body…"

- Saint Symeon the New Theologian (949 - 1032), Catholic mystic

“…Christ has no body but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good,
Yours are the hands, with which he blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet,
Yours are the eyes, you are his body.
Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
compassion on this world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours…”

- Saint Teresa of Avila (1515-1582), Catholic mystic & Doctor of the Church

BTW Are you aware that your surname, Peterson, is the same as the great fourteenth century Catholic mystic Gerlac Peterson?

 

[Vouthon]

Dave.
yes, readiness would be the word, not beginner.

When we understand that it is God who brings to contemplation, and that he does so when we are “ready,” we will begin to grow in it.

I remember years ago, when I decided to read St Teresa’s Way of Perfection. It made no sense. About five years later, when I was introduced to my first OCDS meeting, I went home and picked up the same book and began to devour it. Suddenly, it all made sense. This was because when I first tried to read the book, I was not ready. Later, when God led me to it, I was ready.

So it is in the Cloud of Unknowing. The translation I have, no where does he say that the book is not for beginners, but he says that if the words he has written make no sense, then it’s probably not for you, i.e… you’re not ready.

Jim

LOL this is so familiar to me

I have did exactly the same with practically the entire corpus of mystical writings which I have read and now quote on this forum.

When I first read the Espousals of Blessed Ruysbroeck, I actually did not like them at all. I found them didactic, uninspiring, even boring. I did the same with the vernacular German sermons of Eckhart, the writings of Blessed Henry Suso, the works of Saint John of the Cross etc.

Then when I returned to Ruysbroeck and Eckhart about two years later, it all just clicked. What I formerly found boring filled me with such great joy and delight that one day I read one sermon of Eckhart and literally went into an ecstasy of pure clarity. I felt my breast burn up with a pleasant heat and I forgot where I was altogether and I just felt so close to God. I was filled with warmth and love for everything around me for hours after.

The same thing happened with every other mystical writing. I wasn’t ready and then when I was ready, I found myself so deeply moved and grateful that God had let me grow some more before revealing the riches of these texts to me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

LOL this is so familiar to me

I have did exactly the same with practically the entire corpus of mystical writings which I have read and now quote on this forum.

When I first read the Espousals of Blessed Ruysbroeck, I actually did not like them at all. I found them didactic, uninspiring, even boring. I did the same with the vernacular German sermons of Eckhart, the writings of Blessed Henry Suso, the works of Saint John of the Cross etc.

Then when I returned to Ruysbroeck and Eckhart about two years later, it all just clicked. What I formerly found boring filled me with such great joy and delight that one day I read one sermon of Eckhart and literally went into an ecstasy of pure clarity. I felt my breast burn up with a pleasant heat and I forgot where I was altogether and I just felt so close to God. I was filled with warmth and love for everything around me for hours after.

The same thing happened with every other mystical writing. I wasn’t ready and then when I was ready, I found myself so deeply moved and grateful that God had let me grow some more before revealing the riches of these texts to me.

St Teresa is difficult to understand, because she wasn’t all that good of a writer, a fact she herself admits in The Way of Perfection. She’ll go off on tangents, and then return to the point she’s trying to make.

St. John of the Cross is my preference for his writing has a better style and for my OCDS group, we all preferred his writings.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

The words “not for beginners” is not there but such is to be understood from the context.

The author makes the point in his prologue is that it is for those (in addition to other things he mentions) who really are very committed to following Christ and have set at full steam towards virtue and who have for a long time been doing all in their ability to live in virtue…

…and he stresses not to read it to or give it to etc any except such that one believes are doing such.

 

[Bookcat]

For those looking for some works of Systematic Spiritual Theology – the book “Spiritual Theology” by Fr. Jordan Aumann OP is good. He is drawing and using much from St. Theresa etc but not only the Carmelite School but of course St. Thomas et al.

 

[Bookcat]

An older work is The Ways of Mental Prayer" from the beginning of the last century. By Dom Lehodey O.C.R. Splendid.

A shorter and practical work on mental prayer is “Time for God” by Fr. Jacques Philippe

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The words “not for beginners” is not there but such is to be understood from the context.

The author makes the point in his prologue is that it is for those (in addition to other things he mentions) who really are very committed to following Christ and have set at full steam towards virtue and who have for a long time been doing all in their ability to live in virtue…

…and he stresses not to read it to or give it to etc any except such that one believes are doing such.

And that person could be any person who is ready according to God.

St. Bernadette wasn’t ready to receive Holy Communion according to her teachers, yet according to heaven, she was ready and for much more.

Besides, as the author of the Cloud essentially says that if you’re not ready for contemplation, the words he wrote will seem foolish or confusing.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

And that person could be any person who is ready according to God.

God can do more than we can guess – and their life will show it. The author does not put a particular timetable on things. He is simply saying --do not give this work or read this work etc unless…How or when the got to that place he refers to can be varied according to the persons dispositions and grace etc.

Some Saints have from a very young age been set on a high path by God himself. Even one of infused contemplation.

 

[Richca]

St Teresa is difficult to understand, because she wasn’t all that good of a writer, a fact she herself admits in The Way of Perfection. She’ll go off on tangents, and then return to the point she’s trying to make.

St. John of the Cross is my preference for his writing has a better style and for my OCDS group, we all preferred his writings.

Jim

I actually find St Teresa of Avila easier to understand than St John of the Cross. I think St Teresa writes in a easy, down to earth way using common layman terms. She also writes a lot about the virtues that every christian can practice. St John of the Cross has beautiful writings too but unless God leads one by the path of infused contemplation you might not understand what he is talking about in many places of his writings as St John of the Cross himself admits.