Cloud of Witnesses - in Heaven?

[AnoopP]

The “Cloud of Witnesses” in Hebrews 12:1 is generally used by Catholic apologists to show that saints are in Heaven.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us” - Hebrews 12:1

But I have a doubt in Hebrews 11:39 - 40. This verse seems to say that saints are still not in Heaven. Also what does this mean - “so that they would not, without us, be made perfect”.

“Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect.” - Hebrews 11:39 - 40

Please comment. Thanks.

 

[Mintaka]

There’s a lot more verses than “cloud of witnesses” that show that the saints are in heaven. For example, there’s a whole little book called Revelation, in which the martyrs and the elders and so forth are fairly clearly in Heaven and worshipping hard.

But since your real question is about the meaning of an expression in the Book of Hebrews, let’s talk about that and forget the apologetics thing.

Hebrews 11 is talking all about salvation history and the Jews who came before Jesus – the Patriarchs. And they, indeed, did not go to Heaven immediately after death. Jesus hadn’t died yet, so they had not been redeemed yet. Their souls went to Sheol, we are told, which was a gloomy place, though not Hell.

They are the ones whom Jesus “descended into Hell (Sheol)” to preach the Gospel to and to retrieve, during the days when he was dead. Some of these saints came alive again in the body and roamed Jerusalem, as a sign, as you read in the Gospels. The other souls went to Heaven, to await the Second Coming and the Resurrection in bliss instead of Sheol’s gloom.

This isn’t stuff that gets talked about a lot these days, in either Protestant or Catholic circles. But it’s something that Protestants would generally support. It’s in the Apostles’ Creed, after all.

Now, I can’t tell you which Greek “made perfect” we’re talking about – fullness or being equipped. But the general gist is fairly clear. The Patriarchs et al were very very good and did know and serve God; but God in His wisdom did not give them full knowledge of the Gospels and thus there was something less than perfect in even their holiness. God had them wait on Christ, and on us Christians – even to those of us living today.

(This ties into the whole thing where God could have allowed all the Jews to accept Jesus and not saved any of us Gentiles at all, but chose instead to make some of the Jews remain blind to the full truth until the number of the Gentiles to be saved is completed, at which point there’s supposed to be a mass conversion of the Jews. I mean, sheesh, lucky for us Gentiles that God chose to include us into His people!)

So therefore, with this great cloud of witnesses (and the Greek for witness is martyr, so that’s probably included too) of Patriarchs and pre-Christ God-fearing people now in Heaven (and of the Christian dead too), watching us and waiting on us to run and win the race (because we are their people and they wish us well, but also so that the end of salvation history can finally come), we should be very anxious to do as well or better than the Patriarchs, because we have knowledge and promises they would have done anything to get while they were alive. We have no excuse if we don’t run well.

Hope this helped!

 

[Chellow]

Rev 5:8 - “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.”

 

[AnoopP]

Thanks Chellow and Mintaka for your long reply. Your reply has given me a few thinks to ponder upon.
Yes I know that there are many verses to show that saints are in heaven. No doubt about that.

“since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect”

I think this verse has probably led to the belief that the souls are sleeping and is resurrected only on the last day (all of us together); so I wanted to know what this verse really meant.

Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The “Cloud of Witnesses” in Hebrews 12:1 is generally used by Catholic apologists to show that saints are in Heaven.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us” - Hebrews 12:1

But I have a doubt in Hebrews 11:39 - 40. This verse seems to say that saints are still not in Heaven. Also what does this mean - “so that they would not, without us, be made perfect”.

“Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect.” - Hebrews 11:39 - 40

Please comment. Thanks.

Wouldn’t this simply be saying that those ancients who died before Jesus would be waiting for Him to open the gates of heaven?

Since that had already occurred at the time that Paul (or whoever) authored Hebrews, wouldn’t these OT heroes have already settled into their heavenly home?

OTOH, doesn’t the scripture say that Elijah was taken up into heaven (cf. 2 Kings 2:11)? If so, it seems that at least ONE person was already in heaven prior to Jesus’ incarnation.

 

[NHInsider]

Wouldn’t this simply be saying that those ancients who died before Jesus would be waiting for Him to open the gates of heaven?

Since that had already occurred at the time that Paul (or whoever) authored Hebrews, wouldn’t these OT heroes have already settled into their heavenly home?

OTOH, doesn’t the scripture say that Elijah was taken up into heaven (cf. 2 Kings 2:11)? If so, it seems that at least ONE person was already in heaven prior to Jesus’ incarnation.

Yes, but Elijah was taken body and soul (Assumed) and so had not died. Popular theology anticipated his return at the beginning of the Messianic age (an expectation that was applied to John the Baptist, and also can be seen as fulfilled in the Transfiguration). Still in place today, at least by reference, in the empty chair a circumcision and the extra cup of wine at the table at Passover.

 

[Chellow]

Wouldn’t this simply be saying that those ancients who died before Jesus would be waiting for Him to open the gates of heaven?

Since that had already occurred at the time that Paul (or whoever) authored Hebrews, wouldn’t these OT heroes have already settled into their heavenly home?

OTOH, doesn’t the scripture say that Elijah was taken up into heaven (cf. 2 Kings 2:11)? If so, it seems that at least ONE person was already in heaven prior to Jesus’ incarnation.

Interesting point, the only thing I can say it is believed that time in heaven is relative and doesn’t exist like it does on Earth. Remember their is a lot of illusion in the bible of future occurrence. That tells me that in heaven the future, past and present exist all at the same time.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, but Elijah was taken body and soul (Assumed) and so had not died. Popular theology anticipated his return at the beginning of the Messianic age (an expectation that was applied to John the Baptist, and also can be seen as fulfilled in the Transfiguration). Still in place today, at least by reference, in the empty chair a circumcision and the extra cup of wine at the table at Passover.

You’re right. My mistake.

I was thinking of both Moses and Elijah who appeared at the Transfiguration, and I didn’t really complete the thought.

What would you say regarding Moses?

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, but Elijah was taken body and soul (Assumed) and so had not died.

Hi!

Have you considered St. Paul’s statement about the change that those who are in Jesus will experience? (1 Corinthians 15:50-53)

Could this change not have taken effect with both Enoch and Elijah (for that matter Moses)?

Popular theology anticipated his return at the beginning of the Messianic age (an expectation that was applied to John the Baptist,

When you say that it was applied to John the Baptist, are you suggesting that John the Baptist was not Elijah?

and also can be seen as fulfilled in the Transfiguration).

…but these are two distinct events… the coming of Elijah is a public event where the Percursor of the Lord comes to Israel while the Transfiguration is a private event–so private that only three of Jesus’ disciples were allowed to experience it!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Cachonga]

jcrichton:

When you say that it was applied to John the Baptist, are you suggesting that John the Baptist was not Elijah?

"and he shall go before Him, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn hearts of fathers unto children, and disobedient ones to the wisdom of righteous ones, to make ready for the Lord, a people prepared.’ " Luke 1:17 John the Baptist came in the “spirit and power of Elijah”.

AnoopP - Rev 6:9 says, "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, " Notice, it’s the souls that are in heaven (under the alter for the martyrs). When Christ returns, our bodies will be raised as well (this has already happened to some, as has already been pointed out). I would suggest that, rather than imagining the saints in heaven as “witnessing” what is happening here on earth, what is being presented is that we have the example of the “witness” of their lives (keep in mind that Heb 11 gives multiple examples of the faith of the old saints).

 

[Nita]

“since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect”

I think this verse has probably led to the belief that the souls are sleeping and is resurrected only on the last day (all of us together); so I wanted to know what this verse really meant.

Thanks.

My thought is that Paul’s words “something better” refer to the Mystical Body of Christ.
(The Church-Militant, Suffering, and Triumphant. The promised eternal Kingdom of God.)

It is this union with Christ that saves us. This salvific incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ was not a part of the Old Covenant. It was the New Covenant that provided this new relationship between God and man. Being incorporated into Jesus’ Mystical body is the means of our being perfected.

I would take Paul’s words to be a reference to the fact that the good people who died prior to Christ had to wait until after the New Covenant came into effect (that is, after Jesus’ death and resurrection) to be **incorporated into the Body of Christ - where they are joined with “us” ** - that is, with all believers who were born in the time of the New Covenant.

Hope that makes sense. Some concepts are more difficult than others to put into words. Often it seems the harder I try, the less clearly I manage to state it.

 

[AnoopP]

I know that saints are in Heaven. But my doubt is related to this particular verse. Please give your response so that I can understand this verse better.

Let me rephrase my doubts.

“Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect.” - Hebrews 11:39 - 40

1. “did not receive what was promised” - Why did the author of Hebrews say even at the time when he wrote the epistles that the witnesses have not received what was promised ? Already many saints were bodily resurrected. (Matthew 27)
2. “so that they would not, without us,” - What is our role here ? Why does he say this?
3. “be made perfect.” - What does this mean ? Be perfect in the sense they receive grace? or they will be raised to heaven ? or bodily resurrected to heaven during Christ’s second coming?

Please enlighten me. Thanks.

 

[Cachonga]

AnoopP:

I know that saints are in Heaven. But my doubt is related to this particular verse. Please give your response so that I can understand this verse better.

Let me rephrase my doubts.

“Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect.” - Hebrews 11:39 - 40

1. “did not receive what was promised” - Why did the author of Hebrews say even at the time when he wrote the epistles that the witnesses have not received what was promised ? Already many saints were bodily resurrected. (Matthew 27)
2. “so that they would not, without us,” - What is our role here ? Why does he say this?
3. “be made perfect.” - What does this mean ? Be perfect in the sense they receive grace? or they will be raised to heaven ? or bodily resurrected to heaven during Christ’s second coming?

Please enlighten me. Thanks.

1. Heb 11:9-10 says, "By faith he abode in the land, dwelling in cottages, with Isaac and Jacob, the co-heirs of the same promise. For he looked for a city that hath foundations; whose builder and maker is God. Notice what Abraham (and others) were looking for. There is not yet such a city on Earth.
2. When the City built by God does come to Earth, we will be with them. We, too, should be looking to our Heavenly home, the New Jerusalem (Rev 3:12 and 21:2)
3. When the New Jerusalem comes down, we will all be perfected, there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and death, sin and sickness will be no more. How much more perfect can you get (Rev 21:1-7)?

 

[Mintaka]

Moses was also supposed to have been assumed into Heaven, but unlike Elijah, it was after he kicked the bucket. There’s a story in Jewish literature about the archangel Michael arguing with Satan over who should get Moses’ corpse. In the end, some versions of the story have Moses’ body assumed into Heaven. (Jude 1:9 refers to the argument part.)

So for the person from the time who knows the story of Moses’ assumption into Heaven (even though it’s not in the Bible per se), it’s entirely logical to have Moses show up right next to Elijah to greet Jesus, at the Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah are sort of the first-fruits of the Patriarchs, a sign of what will happen after Jesus’ death and resurrection; and likewise, a sign of the ultimate fate of all mankind, or at least the people who choose to live in Jesus.

And I repeat once again that it’s normal Christian doctrine, shared by the vast majority of denominations, that the Patriarchs et al awaited Jesus in Sheol, but that after He “descended into Hell”/Sheol and preached to them, He brought them to Heaven. This is called “the harrowing of Hell”, and there’s tons of dramatic illustrations of it if you’d care to run your search engine. I apologize if my previous explanation was confusing on this point, but the Patriarchs are in Heaven.

 

[Nita]

Let me rephrase my doubts.

“Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect.” - Hebrews 11:39 - 40

1. “did not receive what was promised” - Why did the author of Hebrews say even at the time when he wrote the epistles that the witnesses have not received what was promised ? Already many saints were bodily resurrected. (Matthew 27)

An important correction: Paul doesn’t say “have not”, he says “did not”.
“Have not” would be present tense - equivalent to saying that at the time Paul was writing, they still had not been “made perfect”.
“Did not” however is past tense. It says that at some point in the past they “did not receive…”
(In Greek, the verb is aorist tense, indicative mood. Here’s how it is explained on this website ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm
*“In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.” *)

The next verse brings in the perspective of the “present tense” - the time of “us”.
(See next question.)

1. “so that they would not, without us,” - What is our role here ? Why does he say this?

It doesn’t say anything about our role - if by that you mean there is something we need to do for them in order that they may be made perfect.
What Paul is saying is that the timing (of when they would receive the promises) would not occur until the time of the New Covenant - until there were people (“us”) initiated into the New Covenant.

“Why does he say this?” I don’t know. But I can think of a couple possible reasons.

1. He may have wanted to reassure them that the faithful who died before Jesus would, in fact, also be redeemed - even tho they had lived before the New Covenant.
2. He is writing this letter to the Hebrews. If you read the preceding chapters of Hebrews, Paul spends a lot of words showing the inadequacy of the Old Covenant to save even those of faith. He is trying to show that even the patriarchs had to become part of the New Covenant in order to be saved.

1. “be made perfect.” - What does this mean ? Be perfect in the sense they receive grace? or they will be raised to heaven ? or bodily resurrected to heaven during Christ’s second coming?

I think “be made perfect” refers to receiving the supernatural life of God in their souls - to the fullness of what they have merited. (The participation in the divine nature St. Peter speaks of in 2 Pet 1:4; sanctifying grace.)

There is no doubt that our redemption will not be complete until our bodies are resurrected and united to our souls, but I don’t know if Paul is including that in his meaning or not when he says “be made perfect”. I tend to think that the “perfecting” applies to the soul. The disordered passions come to an end when the body dies.

 

[SHW]

1. Heb 11:9-10 says, "By faith he abode in the land, dwelling in cottages, with Isaac and Jacob, the co-heirs of the same promise. For he looked for a city that hath foundations; whose builder and maker is God. Notice what Abraham (and others) were looking for. There is not yet such a city on Earth.
2. When the City built by God does come to Earth, we will be with them. We, too, should be looking to our Heavenly home, the New Jerusalem (Rev 3:12 and 21:2)
3. When the New Jerusalem comes down, we will all be perfected, there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and death, sin and sickness will be no more. How much more perfect can you get (Rev 21:1-7)?

Hi Cachonga,

The New Jerusalem is the Church Triumphant. It is not and never will be a literal city in the State of Israel on earth. The New Jerusalem is the Lamb’s Bride. The Lamb’s Bride is His Church. (Revelation 21:9-10, Ephesians 5:22-33)

Pax,
SHW

 

[jcrichton]

"and he shall go before Him, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn hearts of fathers unto children, and disobedient ones to the wisdom of righteous ones, to make ready for the Lord, a people prepared.’ " Luke 1:17 John the Baptist came in the “spirit and power of Elijah”.

But is that what Jesus say?

We know from Scriptures that there are always similarities and disimilarities when it comes to revelations… when the question is posed to John the Baptist (though he is the Lord’s precursor) he is ignorant of his own entity (St. John 1:19-24). Yet, when Jesus speaks of John the Baptist, He has no reservations:

7As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. 9Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10This is the one about whom it is written:
" ‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’ …14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear. (St. Matthew 11:7-15)

7 As the men were leaving, Jesus began to talk to the people about John, 'What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swaying in the breeze? No? 8 Then what did you go out to see? A man wearing fine clothes? Look, those who wear fine clothes are to be found in palaces. 9 Then what did you go out for? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and much more than a prophet: 10 he is the one of whom scripture says: Look, I am going to send my messenger in front of you to prepare your way before you. …14 and he, if you will believe me, is the Elijah who was to return. 15 Anyone who has ears should listen. (St. Matthew 11:7-15)

Was Jesus wrong?

Are there more than one Elijah?

Did Jesus mean “similar” or “spirit of” or “function of” or some other obscured meaning?

AnoopP - Rev 6:9 says, "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, " Notice, it’s the souls that are in heaven (under the alter for the martyrs). When Christ returns, our bodies will be raised as well (this has already happened to some, as has already been pointed out). I would suggest that, rather than imagining the saints in heaven as “witnessing” what is happening here on earth, what is being presented is that we have the example of the “witness” of their lives (keep in mind that Heb 11 gives multiple examples of the faith of the old saints).

But when we turn to Apocalypse 7, verses 9 through 17, we find a totally different group of people; these are not spoken of as spirits or souls–coincidentally, neither is that said of the four living creatures nor the 24 elders.

Our understanding of God’s existence, which includes His Heavenly Throne, is not complete!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I would take Paul’s words to be a reference to the fact that the good people who died prior to Christ had to wait until after the New Covenant came into effect (that is, after Jesus’ death and resurrection) to be **incorporated into the Body of Christ - where they are joined with “us” ** - that is, with all believers who were born in the time of the New Covenant.

Hope that makes sense. Some concepts are more difficult than others to put into words. Often it seems the harder I try, the less clearly I manage to state it.

Hi, Nita!

St. Peter shares a similar revelation with us:

3 Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead 4 and into a heritage that can never be spoilt or soiled and never fade away. It is reserved in heaven for you 5 who are being kept safe by God’s power through faith until the salvation which has been prepared is revealed at the final point of time. 6 This is a great joy to you, even though for a short time yet you must bear all sorts of trials; 7 so that the worth of your faith, more valuable than gold, which is perishable even if it has been tested by fire, may be proved – to your praise and honour when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 You have not seen him, yet you love him; and still without seeing him you believe in him and so are already filled with a joy so glorious that it cannot be described; 9 and you are sure of the goal of your faith, that is, the salvation of your souls. 10 This salvation was the subject of the search and investigation of the prophets who spoke of the grace you were to receive, 11 searching out the time and circumstances for which the Spirit of Christ, bearing witness in them, was revealing the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow them. 12 It was revealed to them that it was for your sake and not their own that they were acting as servants delivering the message which has now been announced to you by those who preached to you the gospel through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even the angels long to catch a glimpse of these things. 13 Your minds, then, must be sober and ready for action; put all your hope in the grace brought to you by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 St. Peter 1:3-13)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I know that saints are in Heaven. But my doubt is related to this particular verse. Please give your response so that I can understand this verse better.

Let me rephrase my doubts.

“Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, without us, be made perfect.” - Hebrews 11:39 - 40

1. “did not receive what was promised” - Why did the author of Hebrews say even at the time when he wrote the epistles that the witnesses have not received what was promised ? Already many saints were bodily resurrected. (Matthew 27)
2. “so that they would not, without us,” - What is our role here ? Why does he say this?
3. “be made perfect.” - What does this mean ? Be perfect in the sense they receive grace? or they will be raised to heaven ? or bodily resurrected to heaven during Christ’s second coming?

Please enlighten me. Thanks.

In another passage St. Paul speaks of the Mystery which was not revealed till the fullness of times–this is the Mystery revealed by Jesus in St. John 3:16-21. Christ speaks of Abraham looking forward to Him and that he saw and was glad; a similar window is shown at His birth (when the Magi reach Jerusalem seeking the King of the Jews which is born) and at the Temple (Simeon and Ana). But I think that St. Paul speaks of something that is transcendent since our sojourn is tempary as our destination is to be with Christ–Faith is what we live by as we Hope to be united to Christ; those who existed prior to Christ’s Incarnation lived also by Faith and they Hoped for that same union (though this theology is not clearly revealed in the Old Testament) with Christ.

I do not think that St. Paul was concerned so much with the Mystery or depth of awareness of the Heavenly existence as much as he was concerned with demonstrating that our Fathers in the Faith, and all who came before the Incarnation of the Word, did not need to experience God’s Glory as their Faith rested in His Infinite Mercy and Love; they operated from Faith in Obedience and Love and Hope!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[AnoopP]

Thanks to all those who replied. All my doubts are cleared.