Clown Mass?

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Don_Jackson said:
At least? Are you implying receiving the Blessed Sacrament in your hand is invalid?
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No, perhaps he means that in such a horribly disrespectful mockery it’s quite amazing to find the degree of reverence suggested by reception on the tongue 🤷
 
PJH 74, are you still a practicing Catholic? I mean if all roads lead to God why choose Caholicism?
 
R_C said:
No, perhaps he means that in such a horribly disrespectful mockery it’s quite amazing to find the degree of reverence suggested by reception on the tongue 🤷
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Although I previously responded with appropriate CAF language…

Yes. This is exactly what I meant. 👍
 
Joe_5859 said:
I’ve been re-reading Lumen Gentium and I just came across this interesting set of responses from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on exactly this passage:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

They spell out exactly what is meant by the passage. Very handy.

We now return to our discussion of clowns. :o
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Thanks for linking Joe. This is great reading for anyone who wants to understand the Church’s teaching on salvation.
 
iloveangels said:
??? I have no idea what this means.
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Neither do I.

We admit that the Almighty God, Creator of all things, humbled Himself so much in the person of the Son as to become not just human, that is, a creature even lower than the angels, but even in the manner of a slave, obedient unto sorrows and death for the sake of sinners. And we glorify Him for in doing this He lost none of His greatness.

Therefore I see no difficulty whatsoever in understanding that God will not dispatch to hell the approx. 6 billion people who are not formal members of the Catholic Church.

I do say, however, that to admit the opposite, that is, that salvation is not universal and that God cannot save others in mysterious ways without decreasing in one bit the splendor of His mystical Bride, the Church, is a terrible depiction of our merciful Lord, one tainted of profound injustice. Which is probably why the Doctor Angelicus had no fear to say: “Deus non alligatur Sacramentis”…
 
Armor_of_Light said:
Although I previously responded with appropriate CAF language…

Yes. This is exactly what I meant. 👍
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Oops 😃 I guess all those who have at one time or another assisted to Holy Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite get a bit emotional on this topic 😃 I mean, I love the Ordinary Form as well, but the contrast between this abomination and the good old traditional Mass is truly shocking!

To the user that said “I actually attended one while in Catholic grade school in the early 80’s. As a child I appreciated it and as you can see I remember it to this day” I say, if you had instead attended the Tridentine Mass (oops, back then it wasn’t possible, oh well, that’s over now, Deo gratias) you’d remember it to this day, too, with the addition that you’d understand what it is meant by the Gift of the Holy Spirit called Awe and Fear of the Lord.
 
I personally have my doubts. I have never seen or heard of one personally. All the pics are linked by sites ran by sectarian Catholics. If one ever happened, or two or three, it would have just been an abherration and not worth all the bruhaha printed about it.
 
R_C said:
Oops 😃 I guess all those who have at one time or another assisted to Holy Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite get a bit emotional on this topic 😃 I mean, I love the Ordinary Form as well, but the contrast between this abomination and the good old traditional Mass is truly shocking! To the user that said “I actually attended one while in Catholic grade school in the early 80’s. As a child I appreciated it and as you can see I remember it to this day” I say, if you had instead attended the Tridentine Mass (oops, back then it wasn’t possible, oh well, that’s over now, Deo gratias) you’d remember it to this day, too, with the addition that you’d understand what it is meant by the Gift of the Holy Spirit called Awe and Fear of the Lord.
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See? That’s just perfectly worded! I wanted to reply as such, but my brusk approach just gets me infractions. You sir, have a gift and I thank you.
 
I think the whole subject of clown Masses ought to be banned on these forums. For one thing, the subject is often used to further some people’s personal agenda, and the incidence of them occurring is probably greatly exaggerated and often hyped-up by certain ultra traditional elements in the Church. A fair evaluation of the whole thing is not possible, since most of the evidence comes from You-tube or hearsay. Even if you personally witnessed one, it is very hard to prove over the internet. You-tube can be doctored, people can lie.

For another thing, people use these so-called clown Masses to foster and further division in the Church. And they do it deliberately. This is the internet–people say and do things they ordinarily would not do in their everyday lives, forgetting that Christian behavior should be observed in all aspects of their lives, including the internet. Some people get a great deal of pleasure from being rude, esp. if they don’t have to suffer any real repercussions.

Thirdly, this is just plain getting old. The subject has been beaten to death. There is no more to say.
 
[sign]Amen, Sister Carolyn! Bury this ole horse already![/sign]
 
I do agree, however clown masses are only the most extreme example. There are other things going on out there, that break our hearts. I’d say that I have been blessed with assisting to 99.9% of wonderful Masses in the Ordinary Form, but at times I seen things, we all do, and to point these things out and promote what is opposed to those things and oriented towards greater reverence to Christ is not to foster division, is to protect bits of the Church from falling apart. I think that, just as for the Holy Eucharist, every fragment is infinitely precious. And I don’t mean to sound dramatic, here, but this reminds me of the terrible impression that the Church leaders had of the poor friars of St. Francis, and of the dream of the Holy Father Innocent III…sometimes what appears to be fostering divisions is actually strengthening the unity of Holy Church, in ways known only to God. Then again, if this is done with a sentiment of pride and vanity rather than with humbleness and charity, it becomes a self-defeating effort and things do go even worse than before 🤷

@Armor of Light, thanks for your kind words that I don’t deserve 🙂
 
R_C said:
I do agree, however clown masses are only the most extreme example. There are other things going on out there, that break our hearts. I’d say that I have been blessed with assisting to 99.9% of wonderful Masses in the Ordinary Form, but at times I seen things, we all do, and to point these things out and promote what is opposed to those things and oriented towards greater reverence to Christ is not to foster division, is to protect bits of the Church from falling apart. I think that, just as for the Holy Eucharist, every fragment is infinitely precious. And I don’t mean to sound dramatic, here, but this reminds me of the terrible impression that the Church leaders had of the poor friars of St. Francis, and of the dream of the Holy Father Innocent III…sometimes what appears to be fostering divisions is actually strengthening the unity of Holy Church, in ways known only to God. Then again, if this is done with a sentiment of pride and vanity rather than with humbleness and charity, it becomes a self-defeating effort and things do go even worse than before 🤷 @Armor of Light, thanks for your kind words that I don’t deserve 🙂
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Hey…no problem. Nice humility!

I’m working out in my head and heart the whole NO / EF thing. It has been very easy for me to get my hackles raised in recent postings and I think I rub Sirach2 the wrong way for sure…I’m working on it! I almost got banned yesterday 🤷

And, technically my question was answered in the first few postings, so no need to keep beating the dead horse. See you on the next topic.
 
R_C said:
I do agree, however clown masses are only the most extreme example. There are other things going on out there, that break our hearts. I’d say that I have been blessed with assisting to 99.9% of wonderful Masses in the Ordinary Form, but at times I seen things, we all do, and to point these things out and promote what is opposed to those things and oriented towards greater reverence to Christ is not to foster division, is to protect bits of the Church from falling apart. I think that, just as for the Holy Eucharist, every fragment is infinitely precious. And I don’t mean to sound dramatic, here, but this reminds me of the terrible impression that the Church leaders had of the poor friars of St. Francis, and of the dream of the Holy Father Innocent III…sometimes what appears to be fostering divisions is actually strengthening the unity of Holy Church, in ways known only to God. Then again, if this is done with a sentiment of pride and vanity rather than with humbleness and charity, it becomes a self-defeating effort and things do go even worse than before 🤷

@Armor of Light, thanks for your kind words that I don’t deserve 🙂
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The problem is, when addressing real Liturgical abuse, the “Clown Mass” seems to be the rallying cry, the standard of abuse, when it most definitely is NOT. That defeats the purpose of identifying and correcting abuses when they occur. Address what is REALLY happening, not some possibly doctored-up, years old film clip from You-tube that probably rarely, if ever really occurs, and is fodder for someone’s personal agenda. That is what fosters division, and it most definitely does NOT strengthen the unity of the Holy Church.

When real Liturgical abuses occur, first make sure they ARE abuses, and not just something someone does not like, never heard of, an accident or oversight, etc. Make sure it happens often enough to be an abuse, and properly document it. A one-time occurrence is not enough to convince a Bishop, esp. without proper documentation, and most likely will be ignored. But the Bishop is not the place to begin. Once identified as a real abuse, address the people responsible at the local level first. If you carefully look at what people are calling liturgical abuse on these forums, you will find they are quite frequently complaints, or personal dislikes and people are quick to cry “Write the Bishop!” That is not going to solve the problem.

And also, as in everything, anything like this should be first preceded by prayer, not just a knee-jerk reaction. Nobody ever seems to mention that. Praying about something should be the first step. Discern God’s will in the matter before any course of action is taken.

I think if people were less emotional and more level-headed and prayerful about this subject, more would actually get done to solve the problem. Priests and Bishops and the powers- that- be would take things more seriously.

That is why I think the whole subject of “Clown Masses” should be forbidden. The problems are not addressed in their reality, and it just becomes a springboard for complaining.
 
Carolyn, have you sent a pm to Jean Anthony about this possibility? It seems like it would fall under the same category as other banned topics like Charismatics or Evolution, due to the hotbed this engenders. Our moderators just don’t have time to monitor foolishness. Fifty-seven posts on this in just one day?
 
Sirach2 said:
Carolyn, have you sent a pm to Jean Anthony about this possibility? It seems like it would fall under the same category as other banned topics like Charismatics or Evolution, due to the hotbed this engenders. Our moderators just don’t have time to monitor foolishness. Fifty-seven posts on this in just one day?
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Yes, I sent a request to ban the topic. The decision is up to the mods now, and I will respect their decision. But I don’t know if anyone else has requested this, I’m probably the only one.
 
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