Clown Masses revisited....

[bpbasilphx]

Sorry for the provocative title. My main purpose was to get attention.

The present Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite is very straightfoward and austere. I’m not saying that austerity is a bad thing. Liturgical austerity is part of the Carthusian charism, as can be seen in the Charterhouse in Vermont. My own taste in church appointments and vesture is for elegant simplicity–which is strangely at variance with Eastern customs, I admit. What a paradox!

The austerity of the Ordinary Form can frequently become bland and barren in execution. This is because none of us bats 1000 (as I said elsewhere). I’m sure even St. John of Kronstadt and St. John Maximovitch had their off-days.

Most people, however, do NOT live clinical lives with Spartan personalities in Bauhaus homes. Most of us like comfort and coziness and warmth and a certain amount of clutter.

I think irregular and illicit ceremonial adjunctss have popped up because some priests and people are trying to flesh out a bare-bones liturgy, but are doing it the wrong way. In my opinion, balloons and the like are simply too tasteless and puerile to rise to the level of “liturgical abuse.” They are merely tacky.

May I suggest the TRUE ceremonial enrichments, which are not really enrichments, but intrinsic to the Liturgy, among them chant and incense? In my brief time as an Episcopalian, in the parish I attended, not only the Ordinary was sung by the people including the Creed and Our Father–and this parish knew several setting–but the Collects, Epistle, Gospel, Sursum Corda, and Preface were chanted to their traditional formulae, adapted from the Latin.

Even when the Green Book (as it was called in '71) and successive revisions were introduced, this continued.

And incense was used copiously on every Sunday and Feast Day.

About the only time I see anything approaching this is on the Sunday Mass from Irondale on EWTN.

If Anglicans can successfully adapt the Latin chants to the vernacular, why cannot Catholics of the Roman Rite? Why cannot the average parish learn to sing the Ordinary? Even low parishes in my home state would sing the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, which last wasn’t even in the BCP!

I think if OF parishes would SING the Mass–which is not the same thing as merely singing four hymns AT Mass–with lots of incense and beautiful vesture, at least on Sundays and Feasts, we’d see fewer irregularites.

How does this sound?

 

[brotherhrolf]

From 1983 to 1992 we were not allowed to sing Latin in my cathedral parish ( I was a cathedral chorister for 20 years).

We sang all of the chants from the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal. Pange Lingua on Holy Thursday is not “Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Glory”.

What happened in 1992? Actually we need to back up to 1988 when the really neat, really spiffy, electronic organ that was installed in our cathedral in 1967 (after they ripped out the pipe organ and the choir loft, communion rails, high altar, etc) bellied up and died smack dab during the wedding of a fellow cathedral chorister. Gosh, Bishop it had vacuum tubes and those tubes could not be replaced.

So, the parish had a fund drive and replaced the pipe organ AND the choir loft for our 200th anniversary in 1992. It was a big liturgical spectacular. We brought in bishops from Spain and France and the principal celebrant was the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyon, France.

Things went really well until the end of Mass. The Cardinal departed from the “script” at the end of Mass and gave the Apostolic Blessing in Latin…Holy Guacamole, Batman! There were five of us, Bishop, five of us in the cathedral choir who remembered the responses. The response from the clergy assembled in the cathedral was just dismal. That Bishop shows just how far things have gone awry. A French Cardinal cannot give the Apostolic Blessing in Latin in a Roman Catholic cathedral in Louisiana.

Funny thing. After that, the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal was put aside and we went back to singing that which is proper to us.

 

[gospelofmark]

when illicit things come up at mass perhaps there are many reasons, bad seminary training, an unclear understanding of the sacrificial nature of the mass. I think if we had a deep conviction of our Lords real presence that would be the end of baloons and cookies and whatever else has crept in there.

 

[ProVobis]

How does this sound?

Did Christ chant everything?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Did Christ chant everything?

So far as I have been able to tell, certain blessings and prayers were always chanted among Jews, even in one’s own home.

And they were certainly chanted in the Synagogues and Temple.’

This is one way the sermon and commentaries were distinguished from the texts of the services: such interpolations were spoken.

The idea of saying holy words in an ordinary speaking voice is totally alien to the practice of most religions.

Only in the West did the idea of the Low Mass being the norm creep into cultural consciousess. Its proper name in Latin is “Missa Privata”: a mass deprived of most of its ceremonies, including chant. In other words, “privata” never did mean “private mass,” but “deprived.”

So yes, it’s safe to suppose that followng Jewish precdent Christ chanted everything in traditional prayers and when He read in the Synagogue.

 

[ProVobis]

So yes, it’s safe to suppose that followng Jewish precdent Christ chanted everything in traditional prayers and when He read in the Synagogue.

That’s what I thought. But He didn’t worship in the vernacular, did He?

I’d stick to Gregorian chant, the Gloria and Creed and Pater Noster in Latin.

Chanting doesn’t seem to add too much to the vernacular. You can do it if you wish but I won’t get too excited about it. But it’s only my opinion and I suppose I’m in a very small minority.

 

[malphono]

The present Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite is very straightfoward and austere. I’m not saying that austerity is a bad thing. Liturgical austerity is part of the Carthusian charism … The austerity of the Ordinary Form can frequently become bland and barren in execution. …

In the (perhaps not so) humble opinion of this Oriental, to compare the OF with the Carthusian Rite liturgy is a bit much. The Carthusian Rite (both the traditional and the reformed) is austere, yet at the same time it maintains its rubrics and liturgical propriety. The OF, on the other hand, rarely does either.

But again IMHO, the word “austere” doesn’t quite capture the OF. I’d be more likely to use “cold” or “empty” or “barren” to describe it. As I see it, the biggest problem with the OF is the lack of rubrics and the presence of far too many “options” (not to mention the profileration of so-called “indults”) which, taken together, allow for far more variation than is either necessary or even good. The OF is really but a “shell liturgy” where the celebrant has license to do quite a bit on his own. And even in those areas where he doesn’t have it, he takes license far too frequently for “pastoral purposes” (that infamous catch-all phrase so dear to the hearts of the progeny of the “spirit of Vatican II”).

I think irregular and illicit ceremonial adjunctss have popped up because some priests and people are trying to flesh out a bare-bones liturgy, but are doing it the wrong way. In my opinion, balloons and the like are simply too tasteless and puerile to rise to the level of “liturgical abuse.” They are merely tacky.

No, I don’t think so. Such “novelties” come from the lack of specification in the OF itself.

May I suggest the TRUE ceremonial enrichments, which are not really enrichments, but intrinsic to the Liturgy, among them chant and incense? In my brief time as an Episcopalian, in the parish I attended, not only the Ordinary was sung by the people including the Creed and Our Father–and this parish knew several setting–but the Collects, Epistle, Gospel, Sursum Corda, and Preface were chanted to their traditional formulae, adapted from the Latin. …

And incense was used copiously on every Sunday and Feast Day.

About the only time I see anything approaching this is on the Sunday Mass from Irondale on EWTN.

If Anglicans can successfully adapt the Latin chants to the vernacular, why cannot Catholics of the Roman Rite? Why cannot the average parish learn to sing the Ordinary? …

I think if OF parishes would SING the Mass–which is not the same thing as merely singing four hymns AT Mass–with lots of incense and beautiful vesture, at least on Sundays and Feasts, we’d see fewer irregularites.

All are lovely suggestions with which I have no argument. All of them are actually part of the “reform of the reform” which is all too rare. But it’s doubtful that any of it can be achieved on a more widespread basis without a total and complete re-write of the rubrics themselves, as well as of the infamous GIRM. And that’s not to mention also severely curtailing the liturgical discretion of the various National Conferences.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Chanting doesn’t seem to add too much to the vernacular.\

**I will disagree with you here. The traditional chants are used in Eastern liturgies all the time. Why not in the Western rite, too?

And some scholars say that Hebrew was more widely used as a vernacular in Christ’s time than has been suspected heretofore. I don’t know enough to have any worthwhile opinion on that. I’m just conveying this as information.**

\The OF is really but a “shell liturgy” where the celebrant has license to do quite a bit on his own.\

**That’s a good, and I hope neutral term, which is what I was striving for.

Again, my suggestion is to fill the shell with the traditional ceremonial and chant and incense.**

 

[peary1]

Sorry for the provocative title. My main purpose was to get attention.

The present Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite is very straightfoward and austere. I’m not saying that austerity is a bad thing. Liturgical austerity is part of the Carthusian charism, as can be seen in the Charterhouse in Vermont. My own taste in church appointments and vesture is for elegant simplicity–which is strangely at variance with Eastern customs, I admit. What a paradox!

The austerity of the Ordinary Form can frequently become bland and barren in execution. This is because none of us bats 1000 (as I said elsewhere). I’m sure even St. John of Kronstadt and St. John Maximovitch had their off-days.

Most people, however, do NOT live clinical lives with Spartan personalities in Bauhaus homes. Most of us like comfort and coziness and warmth and a certain amount of clutter.

I think irregular and illicit ceremonial adjunctss have popped up because some priests and people are trying to flesh out a bare-bones liturgy, but are doing it the wrong way. In my opinion, balloons and the like are simply too tasteless and puerile to rise to the level of “liturgical abuse.” They are merely tacky.

May I suggest the TRUE ceremonial enrichments, which are not really enrichments, but intrinsic to the Liturgy, among them chant and incense? In my brief time as an Episcopalian, in the parish I attended, not only the Ordinary was sung by the people including the Creed and Our Father–and this parish knew several setting–but the Collects, Epistle, Gospel, Sursum Corda, and Preface were chanted to their traditional formulae, adapted from the Latin.

Even when the Green Book (as it was called in '71) and successive revisions were introduced, this continued.

And incense was used copiously on every Sunday and Feast Day.

About the only time I see anything approaching this is on the Sunday Mass from Irondale on EWTN.

If Anglicans can successfully adapt the Latin chants to the vernacular, why cannot Catholics of the Roman Rite? Why cannot the average parish learn to sing the Ordinary? Even low parishes in my home state would sing the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, which last wasn’t even in the BCP!

I think if OF parishes would SING the Mass–which is not the same thing as merely singing four hymns AT Mass–with lots of incense and beautiful vesture, at least on Sundays and Feasts, we’d see fewer irregularites.

How does this sound?

It sounds quite Heavenly. I second the notion.

 

[Robert_Michael]

Using deception to gain attention? You make me sick.

 

[Indyann]

Using deception to gain attention? You make me sick.

And what are we to think of calling yourself “Evangelical Catholic”? You are not Catholic at all.

 

[Robert_Michael]

And what are we to think of calling yourself “Evangelical Catholic”? You are not Catholic at all.

It’s another title for Lutheran.

Go on, I rejoice in the persecutions Satan sets out to give me. Lay them on me. You can’t hurt me.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\What happened in 1992? Actually we need to back up to 1988 when the really neat, really spiffy, electronic organ that was installed in our cathedral in 1967 (after they ripped out the pipe organ and the choir loft, communion rails, high altar, etc) bellied up and died smack dab during the wedding of a fellow cathedral chorister. Gosh, Bishop it had vacuum tubes and those tubes could not be replaced.\

**My organ professor called such “two manual radios.” Like any electronic appliance, they wear out after a couple of decades.

As we both know, well maintained pipe organs last for centuries.**

|| Using deception to gain attention? You make me sick.||

I apologize for all my shortcomings.

 

[RobNY]

Sorry for the provocative title. My main purpose was to get attention.

The present Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite is very straightfoward and austere. I’m not saying that austerity is a bad thing. Liturgical austerity is part of the Carthusian charism, as can be seen in the Charterhouse in Vermont. My own taste in church appointments and vesture is for elegant simplicity–which is strangely at variance with Eastern customs, I admit. What a paradox!

Hey… it happens. I have to admit… one of the nicest things I’ve embraced is the so-called ‘noble simplicity’ of the Roman rite. I really love the traditional Roman style. It fits me so well, and I’m blessed to be a Latin Christian… even if we don’t get too much of that good ol’ time religion in the average parish.

Most people, however, do NOT live clinical lives with Spartan personalities in Bauhaus homes. Most of us like comfort and coziness and warmth and a certain amount of clutter.

And beauty is so inspiring.

I think irregular and illicit ceremonial adjunctss have popped up because some priests and people are trying to flesh out a bare-bones liturgy, but are doing it the wrong way. In my opinion, balloons and the like are simply too tasteless and puerile to rise to the level of “liturgical abuse.” They are merely tacky.

I read a funny article on the blog ‘Just Thomism’ where he accused the American church… not of liturgical abuse… but simply tackiness. It’s not that the way Mass is done is abusive. Worse… it’s simply embarassing. And that’s why no one takes it seriously.

May I suggest the TRUE ceremonial enrichments, which are not really enrichments, but intrinsic to the Liturgy, among them chant and incense? In my brief time as an Episcopalian, in the parish I attended, not only the Ordinary was sung by the people including the Creed and Our Father–and this parish knew several setting–but the Collects, Epistle, Gospel, Sursum Corda, and Preface were chanted to their traditional formulae, adapted from the Latin.

I completely, completely agree. The chant settings are far more dignified. They are shorter than the other settings. And they are genuinely beautiful.

And incense was used copiously on every Sunday and Feast Day.

On Christmas day at my parish they used incense. And I said to myself… ok. Fine. But this is the amount of solemnity an ordinary Sunday Mass ought to have.

If Anglicans can successfully adapt the Latin chants to the vernacular, why cannot Catholics of the Roman Rite? Why cannot the average parish learn to sing the Ordinary? Even low parishes in my home state would sing the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, which last wasn’t even in the BCP!

We definitely can.

I think if OF parishes would SING the Mass–which is not the same thing as merely singing four hymns AT Mass–with lots of incense and beautiful vesture, at least on Sundays and Feasts, we’d see fewer irregularites.

And more interest in Mass, I think. Beauty evangelizes.

How does this sound?

I agree completely.

 

[peary1]

It’s another title for Lutheran.

Go on, I rejoice in the persecutions Satan sets out to give me. Lay them on me. You can’t hurt me.

You mean you are an Evangelical Lutheran. I’ve worked for an Evangelical Lutheran church at one point. NEVER did anyone EVER refer to themselves as Evangelical Catholics. What a crock.

 

[Robert_Michael]

You mean you are an Evangelical Lutheran. I’ve worked for an Evangelical Lutheran church at one point. NEVER did anyone EVER refer to themselves as Evangelical Catholics. What a crock.

I’m LCMS. Not ELCA…

Although, I’m now a closet Catholic. Strange.

 

[brotherhrolf]

\What happened in 1992? Actually we need to back up to 1988 when the really neat, really spiffy, electronic organ that was installed in our cathedral in 1967 (after they ripped out the pipe organ and the choir loft, communion rails, high altar, etc) bellied up and died smack dab during the wedding of a fellow cathedral chorister. Gosh, Bishop it had vacuum tubes and those tubes could not be replaced.\

**My organ professor called such “two manual radios.” Like any electronic appliance, they wear out after a couple of decades.

As we both know, well maintained pipe organs last for centuries.**

|| Using deception to gain attention? You make me sick.||

I apologize for all my shortcomings.

And so once again, Bishop, you dissemble. They ripped out a perfectly good 19th century pipe organ at my cathedral in 1962 in the interest of Vatican II. Bishop, with all due respect, I would appreciate if you didn’t drop these caltrop postings. You are not a Latin Catholic and from what you have posted, never have been. The 19th century organ was ripped out and replaced by the Hoover Deluxe. Providence, the name of our new pipe organ doesn’t make a bloomin’ bit of difference to you but means an awful lot to me. You were not a cathedral choir member and you did not experience the embarrassment when the Hoover Deluxe bellied up and died during a fellow cathedral chorister’s wedding.

 

[bpbasilphx]

And so once again, Bishop, you dissemble. They ripped out a perfectly good 19th century pipe organ at my cathedral in 1962 in the interest of Vatican II. Bishop, with all due respect, I would appreciate if you didn’t drop these caltrop postings. You are not a Latin Catholic and from what you have posted, never have been. The 19th century organ was ripped out and replaced by the Hoover Deluxe. Providence, the name of our new pipe organ doesn’t make a bloomin’ bit of difference to you but means an awful lot to me. You were not a cathedral choir member and you did not experience the embarrassment when the Hoover Deluxe bellied up and died during a fellow cathedral chorister’s wedding.

**My, you’re touchy, brotherhrolf.

There is actually precious little you know about me, but I will tell you some things.

I was a double major as an undergraduate in oboe and organ. And I’ve done more professional work with organ than I ever did with oboe. So the names of both your 19th century organ might not be unknown to me. No, I’m not familiar with Providence organs, but I’ve been off the organist’s bench for some time. Flentrops, Schilckers, and especially Holtkamps were the big names for me in those days.

I have had the Hammond C3 I had to play once upon a time not start up at all on Easter morning. So, likewise, I’m familiar with the mechanical failures of electronic organs at critical times.

Yes, I have been a cathedral choir member. And I was choir director–and cantor–full-time at a large parish that required I be proficient in not one but in THREE liturgical languages. (And actually, I can do others, besides.)

No, I was not a Latin Catholic. But I WAS a very high-church Episcopalian. Trust me, the moans when the Green Book was introduced in 1971 were identical to those heard on the other side of the Tiber in those days. I was among the moaners. The devotion in some places for Latin is matched in others by devotion for Tudor English.

Finally, in case you didn’t know it, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has been tinkered with by all jurisdictions, Orthodox and Catholic. (Rather radically, by most standards, by the Melkite Patriarch.) You’re probably not aware of the sorrow in some places caused by replacing “Mother of God” with “Theotokos.”

Again, let me apologize for all my failures in your eyes. **

 

[ProVobis]

If Anglicans can successfully adapt the Latin chants to the vernacular, why cannot Catholics of the Roman Rite?

You don’t really want to follow the Anglican Church, do you?

The Catholic Church tried to vernacularize the Old Latin Mass through reverent translations, English chant, etc. during the 60’s. With very little success.

 

[ProVobis]

I completely, completely agree. The chant settings are far more dignified. They are shorter than the other settings. And they are genuinely beautiful.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

On Christmas day at my parish they used incense.

As I have my own censor, I use incense inside my home all the time. Sometimes just for relaxation, sometimes to get the odor out of the air. I like that Jerusalem incense the best.

Last OF Mass I attended used incense and the smoke alert system went off. Guess they won’t be doing that there for awhile.