Clunker mass

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As I often do, I went with my wife to mass on Christmas Eve. Now, even as a non-Catholic I find something in nearly every, if not every mass that is inspiring, thought provoking, interesting, etc. Last night was the exception to the rule. People talked though a lot of the mass. The readings were butchered, the music was horrendous and the homily meandered to nowhere. Truly a clunker and on the one night where any clergy person and such has to be (for lack of a better term) on his/her game. Disappointing that it happened on Christmas Eve of all nights. Just to be sure if wasn’t just me, I asked my wife and some of our Catholic friends their thoughts. They were more harsh in their assessment than I was.

Also, why can’t 1,000 people sing a Christmas hymn above a whisper when at the local Lutheran Church I can hear the 200 people at Candlelight Service singing Joy to the World at the end of the service halfway down the street?:rolleyes:
**This is my frustration with Mass, in general. There are way too many priests who simply don’t know how to organize and deliver a good Mass. They don’t get it. Horrible music and ineffectual sermons dominate most neighborhood, parish Masses where I live. It’s very frustrating. As a retired military guy, I expect those in charge to be inspiring and organized. **
 
**This is my frustration with Mass, in general. There are way too many priests who simply don’t know how to organize and deliver a good Mass. They don’t get it. Horrible music and ineffectual sermons dominate most neighborhood, parish Masses where I live. It’s very frustrating. As a retired military guy, I expect those in charge to be inspiring and organized. **
Lord save us from DI Pastors and militarized Masses. 😉

Listening to a bad speaker isn’t fun, but if we listen for the message, the job is done. And “good” is in the ear of the listener. Many people think that Obama is a “great” speaker. I couldn’t disagree more.

He is…what I call… a…halting speaker who…needs to long between…words to …form…his thoughts even…when he has them…written down for him.

If you listen to him speak, you’ll hear that he rarely puts more than 4 words together smoothly, and that his breaks are unnatural–neither at commas nor sentence breaks. I don’t know if this is his natural way of speaking - lord I hope not - or if he was trained to speak this way. When I graduated from Catholic HS, the Valedictorian was coached by the nuns to pause after every 3rd or 4th word. The result was awful. The V was very embarrassed by the way he was forced to speak.

So, while many are in the audience thinking that Obama is inspiring, I’m left counting his words until the next unnatural break. Maybe others like the way the priests in your area speak.
 
Lord save us from DI Pastors and militarized Masses. 😉

Listening to a bad speaker isn’t fun, but if we listen for the message, the job is done. And “good” is in the ear of the listener. Many people think that Obama is a “great” speaker. I couldn’t disagree more.

He is…what I call… a…halting speaker who…needs to long between…words to …form…his thoughts even…when he has them…written down for him.

If you listen to him speak, you’ll hear that he rarely puts more than 4 words together smoothly, and that his breaks are unnatural–neither at commas nor sentence breaks. I don’t know if this is his natural way of speaking - lord I hope not - or if he was trained to speak this way. When I graduated from Catholic HS, the Valedictorian was coached by the nuns to pause after every 3rd or 4th word. The result was awful. The V was very embarrassed by the way he was forced to speak.

So, while many are in the audience thinking that Obama is inspiring, I’m left counting his words until the next unnatural break. Maybe others like the way the priests in your area speak.
**I’m in no way comparing Catholic Mass to Obama. As an ardent anti-Communist, I don’t listen to him, ever, period. Poorly organized Masses, with terrible music and bad sermons, aren’t the end of the world. They’re just missed opportunites, and in many ways, explain declining Mass attendance. Mass should be inspiring, uplifting, memorable. Moreover, there’s no such thing as a ‘militarized Mass’. Masses in the military simply reflect the military’s emphasis on organization. For example, at one post to which I was assigned, Mass *had to end *by a certain time, because Lutheran service started immediately afterward. Those were some of the best Masses. Everything was kept in proportion, so to speak, and delivered a sharp, inspirational impact. **
 
I’m in no way comparing Catholic Mass to Obama. As an ardent anti-Communist, I don’t listen to him, ever, period. Poorly organized Masses, with terrible music and bad sermons, aren’t the end of the world. They’re just missed opportunites, and in many ways, explain declining Mass attendance. Mass should be inspiring, uplifting, memorable. Moreover, there’s no such thing as a ‘militarized Mass’. Masses in the military simply reflect the military’s emphasis on organization. For example, at one post to which I was assigned, Mass *had to end *by a certain time, because Lutheran service started immediately afterward. Those were some of the best Masses. Everything was kept in proportion, so to speak, and delivered a sharp, inspirational impact.
Your funny bone needs to be set. 😉
 
**This is my frustration with Mass, in general. There are way too many priests who simply don’t know how to organize and deliver a good Mass. They don’t get it. Horrible music and ineffectual sermons dominate most neighborhood, parish Masses where I live. It’s very frustrating. As a retired military guy, I expect those in charge to be inspiring and organized. **
I totally agree with you brother.

I feel sometimes that if we arrange a wedding, a brithday or aniversary for a mortal brother of ours, we deal with everything will love and tend to the detail. If there are speeches, we ponder our words and we say something truly essential. if there is music we demand that its beautiful and happy.
But when we go to church many times its a half done job and many things seem neglected. Its like… its everyones church, so its no ones church.
At times it can even seem like the priest is in a hurry.
What hurt’s me most is when the preaching is not conducted in any way worthy of the Gospels.
Preaching is central to Christianity, and without it the parish falls asleep. I’m sure we can measure parish attendance and life in different parishes on the level of zeal and power of preaching that takes place there.

I get most frustrated when people who try to point out the absolute necessity of good preaching are met with indifference or harsh remarks. Often people fail to realise that having a vision for the church means having a vision for bringing Jesus to people. When the chance is passed again or again for preaching, we loose souls, and Jesus is not glorified…

To me it seems evident what great potential good preaching has, and what happens in the parishes where the priest does not find this a vital part of his ministry. Ive seen and experienced the difference.

We are not called to the mediocre, and a half lifeless homily for the elite will never be good enough.
 
I totally agree with you brother.

I feel sometimes that if we arrange a wedding, a brithday or aniversary for a mortal brother of ours, we deal with everything will love and tend to the detail. If there are speeches, we ponder our words and we say something truly essential. if there is music we demand that its beautiful and happy.
But when we go to church many times its a half done job and many things seem neglected. Its like… its everyones church, so its no ones church.
At times it can even seem like the priest is in a hurry.
What hurt’s me most is when the preaching is not conducted in any way worthy of the Gospels.
Preaching is central to Christianity, and without it the parish falls asleep. I’m sure we can measure parish attendance and life in different parishes on the level of zeal and power of preaching that takes place there.

I get most frustrated when people who try to point out the absolute necessity of good preaching are met with indifference or harsh remarks. Often people fail to realise that having a vision for the church means having a vision for bringing Jesus to people. When the chance is passed again or again for preaching, we loose souls, and Jesus is not glorified…

To me it seems evident what great potential good preaching has, and what happens in the parishes where the priest does not find this a vital part of his ministry. Ive seen and experienced the difference.

We are not called to the mediocre, and a half lifeless homily for the elite will never be good enough.
Who are the elite?
 
I’m in no way comparing Catholic Mass to Obama. As an ardent anti-Communist, I don’t listen to him, ever, period. Poorly organized Masses, with terrible music and bad sermons, aren’t the end of the world. They’re just missed opportunites, and in many ways, explain declining Mass attendance. Mass should be inspiring, uplifting, memorable. Moreover, there’s no such thing as a ‘militarized Mass’. Masses in the military simply reflect the military’s emphasis on organization. For example, at one post to which I was assigned, Mass *had to end *by a certain time, because Lutheran service started immediately afterward. Those were some of the best Masses. Everything was kept in proportion, so to speak, and delivered a sharp, inspirational impact.
Actually, Mass attendance is way up. There are more converts than ever before. Unless you live in the Smoky Mountains, you’ll see less people. the Mass is beautiful and uplifting in every one I’ve attended, including Croatia and the Vatican. Italy and the U.S. have some of the best ever. How can you say the Mass isn’t memorable? :confused: if you are paying attention, and your heart is where it should be, you will have no problem. My friend told me a Protestant gathering is one of the most boring things she sits through.
It is emptiness. Something is missing.
 
Actually, Mass attendance is way up. There are more converts than ever before. Unless you live in the Smoky Mountains, you’ll see less people. the Mass is beautiful and uplifting in every one I’ve attended, including Croatia and the Vatican. Italy and the U.S. have some of the best ever. How can you say the Mass isn’t memorable? :confused: if you are paying attention, and your heart is where it should be, you will have no problem. My friend told me a Protestant gathering is one of the most boring things she sits through.
It is emptiness. Something is missing.
I’m thinking that some have a lower than average tolerance for intellectual listening. They respond better to a "show"like presentation of the facts–the difference between reciting the alphabet and singing it. Same information, but one is more entertaining, so it keeps their minds on target.

I think some, if they could, would insist on pyrotechnics at the consecration. Really drive that point home. 😉
 
Who are the elite?
Kalt, when I use the word elite I refer to any given Catholic who, at a given time, is very on fire in his soul and who is experiencing great comfort and inspiration in his personal prayer life.
Those who are not elite are the ones who, at the given time, have become dry and lukewarm either through their own fault or through the fault of others, or those who have never had a personal experience of conversion and meeting the Living Christ as of yet.

I have tried being “elite” and I have tried being in the lukewarm or cold stage… in the elite stage it does not matter that much how lousy a sermon is; you get something out of it no matter what because you are already soo wealthy in your soul and so positive, but for the latter two groups, as well as for the ones living in serious sin or apostasy, a missed opportunity for preaching the Gospel (by the priest in the church, or by us when we meet our needy brother in our daily life) can be a missed opportunity to save his life.

Preaching is not a trivial matter. It’s what got Jesus and the Baptist and most of their immediate friends crucified.
 
Kalt, when I use the word elite I refer to any given Catholic who, at a given time, is very on fire in his soul and who is experiencing great comfort and inspiration in his personal prayer life.
Those who are not elite are the ones who, at the given time, have become dry and lukewarm either through their own fault or through the fault of others, or those who have never had a personal experience of conversion and meeting the Living Christ as of yet.

I have tried being “elite” and I have tried being in the lukewarm or cold stage… in the elite stage it does not matter that much how lousy a sermon is; you get something out of it no matter what because you are already soo wealthy in your soul and so positive, but for the latter two groups, as well as for the ones living in serious sin or apostasy, a missed opportunity for preaching the Gospel (by the priest in the church, or by us when we meet our needy brother in our daily life) can be a missed opportunity to save his life.

Preaching is not a trivial matter. It’s what got Jesus and the Baptist and most of their immediate friends crucified.
What do you suggest to do about priests who aren’t good speakers?
 
Actually, Mass attendance is way up. There are more converts than ever before. Unless you live in the Smoky Mountains, you’ll see less people. the Mass is beautiful and uplifting in every one I’ve attended, including Croatia and the Vatican. Italy and the U.S. have some of the best ever. How can you say the Mass isn’t memorable? :confused: if you are paying attention, and your heart is where it should be, you will have no problem. My friend told me a Protestant gathering is one of the most boring things she sits through.
It is emptiness. Something is missing.
Im happy you live at a place where people are streaming into the Church.
I can’t give a credible idea about Church growth in Croatia and Italy because I have only been in Medjugorje and I have visited Rome once… none of these visits gave me any indication of generel revival in the populations.

As for the rest of Europe and especially North Europe the Church is many places in ruins and in a coma. To refuse to see it or cover over it, would be the same as ignoring the bleeding wound in the head of a child. It would not help… if anything, left to itself it could bring even more infection and death.

How can a Mass not be memorable, you say with indignation. The liturgy is wonderful, and the Eucharist is a great privilege and the center of our lives. Thats what you indicate, and rightly so. We are all privileged by the things Jesus gives us… What saddens us is that sometimes we dont receive all that He wants to give us, because of sleeping ministers. I am happy you havent been in my church… then I would acuse you of nonsense. I can tell you… masses can be forgotten or looked back on with pain and grief… I wont tell you what I have experienced at masses where priests said things that undermined the Gospels… or didn’t preach anything useful at all.

Its not Jesus that disapoints us, neither is it the Holy Spirit.
If your friend who was only complaining about protestant services, is unable to communicate with Jesus in a protestant church among our brothers there, then its not because she is a very wise and spiritual Catholic, but because she is trying to make a rude statement about a place where she came in as a guest.
Whereever two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus, He is right there among them.
We got enough problems of our own to point out the faults in other churches.
 
What do you suggest to do about priests who aren’t good speakers?
Everyone can be a good speaker if he has something to say that he is really passionate about. Its the same in schools… A teacher could destroy any subject, even your favourite one if he had no enthusiasm eg and personal engagement in it.
It does not depend on extraordinary gifts of rhetorics.
In certain eastern churches they demand their priests can sing when they hire them. Why? because they sing much of the liturgy.
I believe the Church’s leadership should stress the need for preaching so that every priest on parish level first realises the need for his best effort in this area, and next, if he is truly unable to say a clear sentence, he should go on a course or visit some other priests who are talented and who can give him examples and advice.

There is much room for improvement. But first we need to acknowlege the need.
 
Im happy you live at a place where people are streaming into the Church.
I can’t give a credible idea about Church growth in Croatia and Italy because I have only been in Medjugorje and I have visited Rome once… none of these visits gave me any indication of generel revival in the populations.

As for the rest of Europe and especially North Europe the Church is many places in ruins and in a coma. To refuse to see it or cover over it, would be the same as ignoring the bleeding wound in the head of a child. It would not help… if anything, left to itself it could bring even more infection and death.

How can a Mass not be memorable, you say with indignation. The liturgy is wonderful, and the Eucharist is a great privilege and the center of our lives. Thats what you indicate, and rightly so. We are all privileged by the things Jesus gives us… What saddens us is that sometimes we dont receive all that He wants to give us, because of sleeping ministers. I am happy you havent been in my church… then I would acuse you of nonsense. I can tell you… masses can be forgotten or looked back on with pain and grief… I wont tell you what I have experienced at masses where priests said things that undermined the Gospels… or didn’t preach anything useful at all.

Its not Jesus that disapoints us, neither is it the Holy Spirit.
If your friend who was only complaining about protestant services, is unable to communicate with Jesus in a protestant church among our brothers there, then its not because she is a very wise and spiritual Catholic, but because she is trying to make a rude statement about a place where she came in as a guest.
Whereever two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus, He is right there among them.
We got enough problems of our own to point out the faults in other churches.
You seem to contradict yourself here. At first you say that because of poor preaching, souls are lost. Yet you say in this post that if she can’t communicate with Jesus, it’s her own fault. So which is it? Is it the poor preaching that’s the stumbling block or is it the person’s attitude?
 
Everyone can be a good speaker if he has something to say that he is really passionate about. Its the same in schools… A teacher could destroy any subject, even your favourite one if he had no enthusiasm eg and personal engagement in it.
It does not depend on extraordinary gifts of rhetorics.
In certain eastern churches they demand their priests can sing when they hire them. Why? because they sing much of the liturgy.
I believe the Church’s leadership should stress the need for preaching so that every priest on parish level first realises the need for his best effort in this area, and next, if he is truly unable to say a clear sentence, he should go on a course or visit some other priests who are talented and who can give him examples and advice.

There is much room for improvement. But first we need to acknowlege the need.
Some said that JPJII should have stopped preaching when he could no longer utter a clear sentence. Hogwash. Who will ever know how many people he reached after his beautiful, poetic speech was lost.
 
**This is my frustration with Mass, in general. There are way too many priests who simply don’t know how to organize and deliver a good Mass. They don’t get it. Horrible music and ineffectual sermons dominate most neighborhood, parish Masses where I live. It’s very frustrating. As a retired military guy, I expect those in charge to be inspiring and organized. **
If you read back to the first page and look at my post, you will see that I thoroughly understand that Mass is not a “show.” Please, don’t everyone accuse me of worldliness or “Protestantism.”

However, KingAlfred, to a certain extent, I agree with you. In our parish, which is very large and wealthy, the Masses are generally quite bland. I think we could do better when it comes to music. I think that the talents and gifts in our parish of around 7000 people are under-utilized and that rather than striving for “excellence” in our Masses, we are content if there is an instrumentalist and a cantor, and neither really has to be competent, just willing.

I know that there are many people in our parish who are professional or semi-professional musicians who never participate in the Masses, and I believe it’s because no one “organizes” the music. Musicians generally don’t step up unless they are invited.

Our Music Director resigned a year ago (to take the job at the Cathedral), and since then, we have had an organist who just plays the organ. He doesn’t organize the “music program” at the parish. He has no idea of the talent that is not being used.

The music is appropriate. That’s about it. And that’s OK, right? After all, the Mass is not a performance.

But surely, SURELY, we could give better to Jesus.

We wouldn’t settle for “appropriate” when it comes to charitable outreach. Our parish tries to out-do ourselves every year when it comes to helping the poor and giving until it hurts to provide for those in need. It’s delightful to be part of such a generous parish.

And our parish school works very hard to be at the top academically and in the arts and sports. We wouldn’t settle for “average” or “meets expectations” at the school. We want to be outstanding!

So why are we settling for “average” and “OK” and “rubrical” when it comes to music?!

Jesus tells the parable of the talents, how some people use their talents and there is an increase. But one person buried his one talent in the ground. I think that’s what is happening at our parish.

I think our dear pastor, who is an excellent manager of this large, wealthy parish, is trying very hard to strike a balance in the parish. He would like to have excellent music. But he does not want to create a “showplace.”

There are churches in our city that are showplaces. A few blocks down the road from our parish is the large Willow Creek spinoff megachurch, which attracts over 10,000 people to worship services every Sunday. Even more come during the 15 services on Christmas weekend. The music can only be described as “spectacular.” The musicians are professionals. There are no volunteers. They are paid professionals, and they are extremely good.

A few miles away from our parish are two other smaller Protestant churches that are not megachurches, but they have around 5000 members. The music is provided by the laypeople, but it is extremely good. Many of the best professional musicians in our city attend these Protestant churches and voluntarily provide the music, so they attract a large number of non-Christian people, which is good, because they get to hear the Gospel and are challenged to follow Jesus.

I think that our good pastor knows that our parish will never “compete” with these places, and so in his attempt to avoid making a competition out of the music, he is willing to settle for what we have and not ask for anything better.

I agree with him, but I also think that it’s sad to not utilize the musicians in the parish who are willing to serve the church with their God-given talents. I see nothing wrong or inappropriate or outside-the-rubrics or irreverent about attempting to have the very best music that we are capable of having.

When my family and I agreed to provide the music for one of the Christmas Eve Vigil Masses, we went all out. For the prelude, we did several pieces. My younger daughter sang “He Shall Feed His Flock” and “Come Unto Me” from Handel’s Messiah. Both of my daughters did “O Holy Night” in French followed by English, in two parts. Then the whole family sang a Mozart “Alleluia.”

People clapped for this prelude. I warned the girls that there would be applause. I know that some of you find this inappropriate. Well, so do I. But when people are starving for good music, they WILL applaud when they get it, just as a person starving for food will sigh and cheer when the food is finally brought to him.

We did not do the Creation Mass parts, as these are done every week. Instead, we used Mass parts from several Masses, the ones that are actually pretty and melodic. The girls cantored them in parts, with descants.

The girls cantored the hymns (Christmas carols) in parts. And my younger daughter sang a Communion Meditation, a song that I wrote. It went perfectly with the priest’s homily. It sounded like his homily, but set to music!

And I played a magnificant Christmas medley as a Postlude.

After Mass, people told us that they didn’t expect to hear good music.

What?! Not expect to hear good music at Mass on the night before the celebration of the Lord’s birth?!

That’s sad, don’t you think? I don’t expect to hear good music during a weekday Mass. But on Christmas Eve, surely we should try to at least imitate the angels, who SANG in honor of the Nativity!

Anyway, I think that it’s difficult for Catholic priests to find balance between making the Mass a “show” and keeping the Mass a heavenly liturgy.
 
If you read back to the first page and look at my post, you will see that I thoroughly understand that Mass is not a “show.” Please, don’t everyone accuse me of worldliness or “Protestantism.”

However, KingAlfred, to a certain extent, I agree with you. In our parish, which is very large and wealthy, the Masses are generally quite bland. I think we could do better when it comes to music. I think that the talents and gifts in our parish of around 7000 people are under-utilized and that rather than striving for “excellence” in our Masses, we are content if there is an instrumentalist and a cantor, and neither really has to be competent, just willing.

I know that there are many people in our parish who are professional or semi-professional musicians who never participate in the Masses, and I believe it’s because no one “organizes” the music. Musicians generally don’t step up unless they are invited.

Our Music Director resigned a year ago (to take the job at the Cathedral), and since then, we have had an organist who just plays the organ. He doesn’t organize the “music program” at the parish. He has no idea of the talent that is not being used.

The music is appropriate. That’s about it. And that’s OK, right? After all, the Mass is not a performance.

But surely, SURELY, we could give better to Jesus.

We wouldn’t settle for “appropriate” when it comes to charitable outreach. Our parish tries to out-do ourselves every year when it comes to helping the poor and giving until it hurts to provide for those in need. It’s delightful to be part of such a generous parish.

And our parish school works very hard to be at the top academically and in the arts and sports. We wouldn’t settle for “average” or “meets expectations” at the school. We want to be outstanding!

So why are we settling for “average” and “OK” and “rubrical” when it comes to music?!

Jesus tells the parable of the talents, how some people use their talents and there is an increase. But one person buried his one talent in the ground. I think that’s what is happening at our parish.

I think our dear pastor, who is an excellent manager of this large, wealthy parish, is trying very hard to strike a balance in the parish. He would like to have excellent music. But he does not want to create a “showplace.”

There are churches in our city that are showplaces. A few blocks down the road from our parish is the large Willow Creek spinoff megachurch, which attracts over 10,000 people to worship services every Sunday. Even more come during the 15 services on Christmas weekend. The music can only be described as “spectacular.” The musicians are professionals. There are no volunteers. They are paid professionals, and they are extremely good.

A few miles away from our parish are two other smaller Protestant churches that are not megachurches, but they have around 5000 members. The music is provided by the laypeople, but it is extremely good. Many of the best professional musicians in our city attend these Protestant churches and voluntarily provide the music, so they attract a large number of non-Christian people, which is good, because they get to hear the Gospel and are challenged to follow Jesus.

I think that our good pastor knows that our parish will never “compete” with these places, and so in his attempt to avoid making a competition out of the music, he is willing to settle for what we have and not ask for anything better.

I agree with him, but I also think that it’s sad to not utilize the musicians in the parish who are willing to serve the church with their God-given talents. I see nothing wrong or inappropriate or outside-the-rubrics or irreverent about attempting to have the very best music that we are capable of having.

When my family and I agreed to provide the music for one of the Christmas Eve Vigil Masses, we went all out. For the prelude, we did several pieces. My younger daughter sang “He Shall Feed His Flock” and “Come Unto Me” from Handel’s Messiah. Both of my daughters did “O Holy Night” in French followed by English, in two parts. Then the whole family sang a Mozart “Alleluia.”

People clapped for this prelude. I warned the girls that there would be applause. I know that some of you find this inappropriate. Well, so do I. But when people are starving for good music, they WILL applaud when they get it, just as a person starving for food will sigh and cheer when the food is finally brought to him.

We did not do the Creation Mass parts, as these are done every week. Instead, we used Mass parts from several Masses, the ones that are actually pretty and melodic. The girls cantored them in parts, with descants.

The girls cantored the hymns (Christmas carols) in parts. And my younger daughter sang a Communion Meditation, a song that I wrote. It went perfectly with the priest’s homily. It sounded like his homily, but set to music!

And I played a magnificant Christmas medley as a Postlude.

After Mass, people told us that they didn’t expect to hear good music.

What?! Not expect to hear good music at Mass on the night before the celebration of the Lord’s birth?!

That’s sad, don’t you think? I don’t expect to hear good music during a weekday Mass. But on Christmas Eve, surely we should try to at least imitate the angels, who SANG in honor of the Nativity!

Anyway, I think that it’s difficult for Catholic priests to find balance between making the Mass a “show” and keeping the Mass a heavenly liturgy.
Wow! That was a lot about you. 😉

It sounds like you’ve solved your church’s problem. You and your family should volunteer for every week, not just at Christmas.
 
You seem to contradict yourself here. At first you say that because of poor preaching, souls are lost. Yet you say in this post that if she can’t communicate with Jesus, it’s her own fault. So which is it? Is it the poor preaching that’s the stumbling block or is it the person’s attitude?
Both can be a stumbling block… both poor preaching and ones own attitude. In this case it was clear that it was an attitude problem.
At any rate, I could return to the elite concept. If the person in question is on fire and can talk with Christ every where, being among Protestants wont destroy that inner openess and grace in the soul.
In all Churches where people do their best to honour God and are loving and spiritfilled people a Catholic should feel somewhat at home.
The fact that we have the Eucharist, does not mean that other Christians dont have the Holy Spirit in their assemblies.
If one wants a Catholic Mass, one should not be at a Protestant service,
If either is conducted well, God can give huge graces through it.
 
Both can be a stumbling block… both poor preaching and ones own attitude. In this case it was clear that it was an attitude problem.
At any rate, I could return to the elite concept. If the person in question is on fire and can talk with Christ every where, being among Protestants wont destroy that inner openess and grace in the soul.
In all Churches where people do their best to honour God and are loving and spiritfilled people a Catholic should feel somewhat at home.
The fact that we have the Eucharist, does not mean that other Christians dont have the Holy Spirit in their assemblies.
If one wants a Catholic Mass, one should not be at a Protestant service,
If either is conducted well, God can give huge graces through it.
It’s clear that when someone is at a Catholic Mass and doesn’t “feel the love” it is the priest’s fault and that when someone doesn’t feel the love at a Protestant service, it’s the congregant’s fault? :eek:

Maybe that Catholic isn’t an “elite” and the Protestant sermon didn’t inspire him to become one of the “elite”.
 
It’s clear that when someone is at a Catholic Mass and doesn’t “feel the love” it is the priest’s fault and that when someone doesn’t feel the love at a Protestant service, it’s the congregant’s fault? :eek:

Maybe that Catholic isn’t an “elite” and the Protestant sermon didn’t inspire him to become one of the “elite”.
Could you please quote what part of my statements you dont agree with.
From the begining you have not uttered agreement with any of my points but only urged me to continue on an on so you could finally twist my words and get something uncharitable out of it.

So what is it.
You disagree with ?
  1. Worthy preaching is essential in our Masses
  2. Powerful preaching can heal, inspire and restore many things in a soul
  3. Some people are interiorly dry and need to be helped extra by the congregation and the priests through love, fellowship and powerful testimony/preaching
  4. some people are so full of the inner comfort that they can be in a desert exteriorly and it wont have much effect on them.
  5. a Catholic who believes that the Holy Spirit is not present and cant give her something in a protestant service, shuts herself off in advance from any grace that could have been given.
So what is it you disagree with… 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or all of the above???
 
I hit “quote” to reply, and I have no idea why it says that you posted that. If you look just above the shaded area, you’ll see that it correctly names the member I was replying to.

Now, in the interest of getting it right, read the response carefully and fully, and please don’t blame me for forum glitches. And please don’t stalk me in a private message just to say that same thing you said here.

FWIW, my name has been attached in the same way to posts I didn’t make. I have no idea what causes that. Perhaps you can ask the forum administrators to look into the problem. In the meantime, read more carefully and stay out of my in-box. You’re not making it easy for me to take you at your word about praying for the “Creasters”. 😉
Wow. It happened again. That’s my quote that you attributed to izoid.

Perhaps since this seems to be a problem, I suggest that you contact the administrators, since the problem seems to be showing up in your posts. The other thing you can do in the meantime is to realize that quotes will start with a QUOTE=kalt;6098255 (I left out the ending bracket after the 5) and end with a /QUOTE (again, I left out the end bracket after the E) of course the poster’s name that you are quoting follows the equal sign.

If you don’t want PM’s, you can just block them, BTW, or block an individual user such as myself if you don’t want any PMs. Hope this helps. I would have preferred that if you had a problem with my PM that we could discuss it privately rather than air it in the forum. :hug1: I’ll stay out of this thread, this is getting a bit too personal.
 
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