CNN article "Eight of the worst popes in church history"

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So true !

Just not worth arguing the point, with an anti-catholic.
 
Well, I would say that the Church is stronger as a result of these popes.
Especially in times of theological controversy, their papacy eventually lead to a stronger and more unified Church
 
KevinK said:
Is that a yes or a no?
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You mean like in atheist fundamentalist fashion, yes or no? I dont think in those terms, I’m sorry.

Search permissive will / perfect will (or active will)

And let’s look at a common sense analogy.
Do you have children or know someone who does? The parents wield a certain amount of power to determine the freedom of the child.

The parent knows the child will at some point abuse his free will and do something stupid, harmful, and self destructive and destructive of others. Everyone falls.

What’s a parent to do? Should the parent use power he has to restrict the freedom of the child by locking the child behind the door? Surely the child will not get hurt now or hurt others.

But the child will also be stunted and not flourish. In an effort to remove all possibility of failure, the parent has made the child unable to love, or even function in the world.

The parent knows that for the child to flourish in the world, freedom must be allowed, and possible tragedies permitted, for the highest good to come about.
The parent does not actively will the child to get hurt, the parent permits the child freedom, and the hurts that come about point to a higher good.

Love only exists in freedom.
 
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The correct analogy would be a child who turned out to be a mass murderer. Would this be the will of the parent? No. In the same way I am asking you is the appointment of a “bad” Pope God’s will? Or not? Trying to make this complicated is evasive.
 
KevinK said:
The correct analogy would be a child who turned out to be a mass murderer. Would this be the will of the parent? No. In the same way I am asking you is the appointment of a “bad” Pope God’s will? Or not? Trying to make this complicated is evasive.
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I just directly explained that to you. Are you going to engage it or agenda post?

Do you advocate for the locking of children in their rooms to prevent one of them from being a mass murderer?
Surely you as a parent don"t will for your child to become a mass murderer. Lock em up!!! Limit their freedom and your problem is solved.
Not.
You end up with stunted human beings who are unable to love, because you are afraid of life.
 
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Islam, I would argue, does not have centralized leadership as Catholicism does.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Years ago some Protestant woman was telling my aunt that her chuch (might have been Lutheran) left the Catholic Church because of a “bad” Pope.

My aunt said, “Well, we have a new Pope now, so why don’t you come back?”
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Love this!!!
 
Spyridon said:
During the tenth century, and then again between the 12th and 15th centuries, there were several strings of very evil popes.
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This is overstated to the degree it borders on calmuny against the Church. I really think you should seriously consider retracting the sentence.
I do not deny there have been bad Pope’s. But “several strings” explicitly is “many” and then to say “evil”. I am sure you did not mean to condem the Holy See of medieval times so severely.
 
To kill a snake, you cut off its head. Without the Magisterium, the Church would dissolve in 100 years.

To eliminate Islam would be like eliminating Protestantism- A proverbial game of whackamole- there are so many sects.

@Shazirah would you agree?
 
What leadership is there in Islam that can be compared to the Catholic Church’s? So far as I’m aware, there is none. There is no figure nor even group that Islam can look to as an authority.
 
tafan2 said:
really think you should seriously consider retracting the sentence.

I do not deny there have been bad
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Not gonna happen.

Some pretty horrific people were Pope in the middle ages, and nothing can change that.

I stand by my assertion that there were several evil Popes who are almost certainly in hell today.

The Pope is infallible in his Magisterial authority regarding faith and morals.

The Pope is NOT impeccable in his person.

Ultramontanist thought has often given way to the heresy that the Pope is impeccable as well as infallible.
 
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If you had the foreknowledge that you child would become a mass murderer then the moral thing to do would be to prevent it (“lock them up” to use your words).
This would seem self evident. Hitler would have been best smothered as an infant.
 
KevinK said:
If you had the foreknowledge that you child would become a mass murderer then the moral thing to do would be to prevent it (“lock them up” to use your words).
This would seem self evident. Hitler would have been best smothered as an infant.
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If…
if

If I had wings I would fly.

You are going to object that God is omniscient and if he loved us he would have snuffed out the bad Popes.
Yes God is omniscient, and
God is also omnipotent.
And God’s essence is love.
Since God is also simplicity itself and has no partitions, all these things “coexist” in God.
The fact that God has power and knowledge does not mean God uses it against his own nature.

Love does not violate free will. Little Hitler is not predestined to hell as in your fundamentalist paradigm. Little Hitler always has another chance throughout his life to accept love and love others.
 
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