J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Am I wrong for believing that what is Christ’s alone should not be given to Mary?
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S
steve_b
Guest
Did you even listen to the link I gave? Based on your comment, I think notAm I wrong for believing that what is Christ’s alone should not be given to Mary?
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Answer my question.Did you even listen to the link I gave? Based on your comment, I think not
S
steve_b
Guest
It answered you. Which means you didn’t listen to the linkAnswer my question.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
So am I wrong in saying what is Jesus’ shouldn’t be given to Mary? A simple question. Yes or no.It answered you. Which means you didn’t listen to the link
S
steve_b
Guest
I already answered you #14So am I wrong in saying what is Jesus’ shouldn’t be given to Mary? A simple question. Yes or no.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Yes or no?I already answered you #14
S
steve_b
Guest
When you said*** "what is Jesus’ shouldn’t be given to Mary? " ***Yes or no?
Give an example.
What I’m seeing, you deny Mary is a mediatrix
V
Vico
Guest
The Blessed Virgin Mary is invoked as Mediatrix.Okay so I’m working my way through the protestant arguments, trying to come up with what the church actually says on the subject and how She defends herself.
I don’t have access to commonly cited texts (behold your mother, haul holy queen) at this time, but I do have a catechism and the Vatican website.
My understanding at this time is that the action of co-mediation is not exclusive to Mary. Any given Christian (perhaps outside of those "converted in a dream"stories you hear about in China) has many co-mediators: parents, pastors, apologists, and prayer warriors all teaching, evangelizing or praying for their salvation, etc. These actions are efficacious and biblical. Indeed, they are part of the great commission and thus required.
Mary, however, is unique. Her status of Holy Mother of all living means that she genuinely cares (via the graces of God in her life) about the outcome of EACH person’s spiritual battle. She wants each individual to come to saving knowledge of her Son and prays that way continually (and is so enabled to do that by her presence in heaven and God’s grace). When we pray a hail Mary on behalf of someone’s salvation, we are actually agreeing with her in prayer.
Thus, if you are saved, you know that Mary was praying for you for that, and she is part of that group of people who led you from ignorance to Christ.
Is this an accurate summary of the Catholic position, or what internet-available resources would you recommend to help me get clarity on this subject?
Catechism
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
Co-Mediatrix is not a title known to Mariology
That Mary is invoked using the title “Mediatrix” – but that this in absolutely no way should be seen as a detraction from Christ the One Mediator – is well explained by the Council Fathers at Vatican II in Chapter 8 of Lumen Gentium
*60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”. The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.*
The Council Fathers chose, deliberately, not to use the title Co-Redemptrix. They also chose how to use Mediatrix very carefully.
The Council Fathers made clear that when we put forward the Church’s teachings about the Mother of Jesus, all care must be taken so that non-Catholics do not misunderstand or think that we accord a place to Mary that we do not. As we read in paragraph 67:
Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.
That Mary is invoked using the title “Mediatrix” – but that this in absolutely no way should be seen as a detraction from Christ the One Mediator – is well explained by the Council Fathers at Vatican II in Chapter 8 of Lumen Gentium
*60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”. The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
- Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
- This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth /…/ Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.
The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.*
The Council Fathers chose, deliberately, not to use the title Co-Redemptrix. They also chose how to use Mediatrix very carefully.
The Council Fathers made clear that when we put forward the Church’s teachings about the Mother of Jesus, all care must be taken so that non-Catholics do not misunderstand or think that we accord a place to Mary that we do not. As we read in paragraph 67:
Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.
S
steve_b
Guest
youtube.com/watch?v=za2JbvaI3EE 7 minCo-Mediatrix is not a title known to Mariology
D:
Mary as Mediatrix does NOT detract from Christ.That Mary is invoked using the title “Mediatrix” – but that this in absolutely no way should be seen as a detraction from Christ the One Mediator – is well explained by the Council Fathers at Vatican II in Chapter 8 of *Lumen Gentium
*
Was Paul detracting from Christ when he said
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
D:
From the CCC (emphasis mine)*60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”. The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
- Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
- This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth /…/ Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.
The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.*
The Council Fathers chose, deliberately, not to use the title Co-Redemptrix. They also chose how to use Mediatrix very carefully.
The Council Fathers made clear that when we put forward the Church’s teachings about the Mother of Jesus, all care must be taken so that non-Catholics do not misunderstand or think that we accord a place to Mary that we do not. As we read in paragraph 67:Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.
**969 ** "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
Also
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Answer the question.When you said*** "what is Jesus’ shouldn’t be given to Mary? " ***
Give an example.
What I’m seeing, you deny Mary is a mediatrix
And as Fr. Ruggero stated, no one calls Mary, co-Mediatrix. If you’re one of the guys pushing for the Fifth dogma, I can assure you that is heresy.
S
steve_b
Guest
I’ve answered itAnswer the question.
J:
As far as my references that I gaveAnd as Fr. Ruggero stated, no one calls Mary, co-Mediatrix. If you’re one of the guys pushing for the Fifth dogma, I can assure you that is heresy.
- Mary is already Mediatrix. THAT is Church teaching. **969 Which means by definition it is doctrine. ,%between% **
- I used Dr Mark Miravalle, Deacon, theologian, professor of Theology @ Franciscan Univ, because
- I can easily see his body of work markmiravalle.com/
- I can easily see his credentials markmiravalle.com/biography_mark_miravalle/
- I know the reputation of Franciscan Univ and the places he’s attained his credentials
So, back to the subject, in Mary’s titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, Mediatrix, who does the Church say Mary does this for and by who’s power does she do it?
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Yes or No.I’ve answered it
As far as my references that I gave
.
- Mary is already Mediatrix. THAT is Church teaching. 969 Which means by definition it is doctrine. ,%between%
So, back to the subject, in Mary’s titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, Mediatrix, who does the Church say Mary does this for and by who’s power does she do it?
Simple question simple answer.
She is a Mediatrix, but NOT of all Graces.
S
steve_b
Guest
When Mary gave birth to Jesus, thereby bringing the font of ALL grace into the world, what part of that was she left out of?Yes or No.
Simple question simple answer.
She is a Mediatrix,*** but NOT of all Graces.
Originally Posted by steve b forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I’ve answered it
As far as my references that I gave
- Mary is already Mediatrix. THAT is Church teaching. 969 Which means by definition it is doctrine. ,
- I used Dr Mark Miravalle, Deacon, theologian, professor of Theology @ Franciscan Univ, because
- I can easily see his body of work markmiravalle.com/
- I can easily see his credentials markmiravalle.com/biography_mark_miravalle/
- I know the reputation of Franciscan Univ and the places he’s attained his credentials
So, back to the subject, in Mary’s titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, Mediatrix, who does the Church say Mary does this for and by who’s power does she do it?
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
That was not mediating at all. She was a recipient of Grace, not the Giver of it.When Mary gave birth to Jesus, thereby bringing the font of ALL grace into the world, what part of that was she left out of?
My question was stated plainly, “Am I wrong in saying what is Jesus’ should NOT be given to Mary?” I asked for a simple Yes or No, which you did not give.
S
steve_b
Guest
Your answer demonstrates, you haven’t listened to nor read anything I’ve provided.That was not mediating at all. She was a recipient of Grace, not the Giver of it.
you would do well to familiarize yourself with what the incarnation is
J:
If you are staying on topic, I gave you answers on top of answers based on the topic…My question was stated plainly, “Am I wrong in saying what is Jesus’ should NOT be given to Mary?” I asked for a simple Yes or No, which you did not give.
**969 **“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
look up the definition of those titles
V
Vico
Guest
mediation is intercession, from Collins Dictionary:That was not mediating at all. She was a recipient of Grace, not the Giver of it.
My question was stated plainly, “Am I wrong in saying what is Jesus’ should NOT be given to Mary?” I asked for a simple Yes or No, which you did not give.
the act of interceding or offering petitionary prayer to God on behalf of others
One thing was that the Blessed Virgin Mary said yes to the Archangel. She became the channel through which the Son of God assumed flesh, because she freely agreed. The Virgin Mary, in order to be the worthy mother of Christ, was allowed to share beforehand in the salvation that Christ would bring by His death, and was kept sinless from the first moment of her conception.
Akathist
Ikos 1: An Archangel was sent from heaven to greet the Theotokos, and as he saw you assuming a body at the sound of his bodiless voice, O Lord, he stood rapt in
amazement and cried to her in these words:
Re joice, O you through whom joy will shine forth;
Re joice, O you through whom the curse will dis ap pear!
Re joice, O Restoration of the fall en A dam;
Re joice, O Redemption of the tears of Eve!
Re joice, O Peak above the reach of hu man thought;
Re joice, O Depth even beyond the sight of an gels!
Re joice, O you who have be come a king ly Throne;
Re joice, O you who carry him who car ries all!
Re joice, O Star who man i fest the Sun;
Re joice, O womb of the divine In car na tion!
Re joice, O you through whom cre a tion is re newed;
Re joice, O you through whom the Crea tor be comes a Babe!
Re joice, O you through whom the curse will dis ap pear!
Re joice, O Restoration of the fall en A dam;
Re joice, O Redemption of the tears of Eve!
Re joice, O Peak above the reach of hu man thought;
Re joice, O Depth even beyond the sight of an gels!
Re joice, O you who have be come a king ly Throne;
Re joice, O you who carry him who car ries all!
Re joice, O Star who man i fest the Sun;
Re joice, O womb of the divine In car na tion!
Re joice, O you through whom cre a tion is re newed;
Re joice, O you through whom the Crea tor be comes a Babe!
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Since when does that make her Mediatrix of all Graces?mediation is intercession, from Collins Dictionary:
the act of interceding or offering petitionary prayer to God on behalf of others
One thing was that the Blessed Virgin Mary said yes to the Archangel. She became the channel through which the Son of God assumed flesh, because she freely agreed. The Virgin Mary, in order to be the worthy mother of Christ, was allowed to share beforehand in the salvation that Christ would bring by His death, and was kept sinless from the first moment of her conception.
Akathist
Ikos 1: An Archangel was sent from heaven to greet the Theotokos, and as he saw you assuming a body at the sound of his bodiless voice, O Lord, he stood rapt in
amazement and cried to her in these words:
Re joice, O you through whom joy will shine forth;
Re joice, O you through whom the curse will dis ap pear!
Re joice, O Restoration of the fall en A dam;
Re joice, O Redemption of the tears of Eve!
Re joice, O Peak above the reach of hu man thought;
Re joice, O Depth even beyond the sight of an gels!
Re joice, O you who have be come a king ly Throne;
Re joice, O you who carry him who car ries all!
Re joice, O Star who man i fest the Sun;
Re joice, O womb of the divine In car na tion!
Re joice, O you through whom cre a tion is re newed;
Re joice, O you through whom the Crea tor be comes a Babe!
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
The Incarnation is when God became Man in the womb of Mary. From what I remember in Catholic teaching during grade school, it has nothing to do with Mediatrix of all Graces.Your answer demonstrates, you haven’t listened to nor read anything I’ve provided.
you would do well to familiarize yourself with what the incarnation is
If you are staying on topic, I gave you answers on top of answers based on the topic…
**969 **“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
look up the definition of those titles
And for the record I required a Yes or No answer, one which you did not give. Instead of debating this you basically quote mined from the Holy Catechism to support your view and gave a series of accusations. I ask you again: Am I wrong in saying that what should be given to Jesus should NOT be given to Mary? Yes or No.
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