Co-mediatrix

[Good_Fella]

No. I just don’t believe Mary was His only option. After all, God is God and humans are…

If God had to pick and choose from an array of options, He would then be dependent on them by having to make sure that He selects the right one, which implies He has the potential to err. When we speak of God having infallible knowledge, we understand that whatever He wills is immutable because it is necessary. So Mary was fundamentally necessary in God’s plan of salvation. There can’t be any other option, unless God Himself is constrained by a necessity external to Him. But all that is necessary proceeds from what God decrees. Everything that should be because He wills or permits it depends on His infallible knowledge and immutable will. We, on the other hand, are subject to and dependent on necessities that are external to us. They do not proceed from what we know and will. Hence, by honouring Mary because of her vital role in the Divine plan by Divine decree, we do in fact worship God.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

I think she’d be really upset to find out people pointing to her instead of Him.

It is a Protestant tendency to create two diametrically opposed poles in Christian theology. If you understood Catholic Marian theology correctly, you wouldn’t hold the “either/or” view, but rather the “both/and” one. For instance, with regard to Genesis 3:15, Protestants ask themselves whether it was either Jesus or Mary who crushed the head of the serpent. The Catholic response is that both Jesus and Mary crushed its head. It wasn’t either Jesus or Mary, but both of them together. Mary fulfilled her part when she declared: “I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.” (Luke 1:38).

blessedaboveallwomen.co/2016/04/23/she-shall-crush-thy-head/

PAX

:heaven:

 

[Deconi]

no he is not.

No. I just don’t believe Mary was His only option. After all, God is God and humans are…

If you believe that The Perfect Being had another option and tried this option out first - or whenever it suited Him - then your knowledge of ‘Perfect’ is, umm…imperfect!

There are those who say He could have used any means He wills; but they are limited to human intellect without allowing the calculations to encompass what has been revealed to understand, Perfect! Just! Omniscient! Perfect!

Perfection - means out of a variety of possibles, however seemingly incalculable, the choice made is The One, and FINAL!

Did He know Mary would say ‘Yes?’ Knowing Him as I do, I say YES!

Was Mary free to say ‘No?’ - The answer is again, Yes.

What if she did say, NO?
You and I would not be here now!
Incredibly as it may sound, I reckon that Noah would not have been ‘called.’

If I had to ‘fault’ any of His attributes, it would be, Love!

THAT, is the attribute that ‘makes’ Him keep bothering with the creature He created for no other reason than out of Love - as Augustine and Aquinas kept harping on about!

 

[steve_b]

No. I just don’t believe Mary was His only option.

When God chose Mary from all eternity, why are you even suggesting what you’re suggesting?

May I suggest reading up on Predestination

JB:

After all, God is God and humans are…

And humans can be dopes, saying no to God TO HIS FACE (Jn 6:67). John 6:49-72 , and since God knows everything in advance, there are no surprises.

God chose Mary, and Mary freely said yes to God’s proposal.

From Mary’s yes, the God man, the font of all grace (Jesus), came into the world, in the flesh BY GOD’S own design.

Mary then, by definition, and from all eternity, is NOT the source of that, as you charged earlier #53 , she is the Mediatrix of that.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

When God chose Mary from all eternity, why are you even suggesting what you’re suggesting?

God chose Mary, and Mary freely said yes to God’s proposal.

From Mary’s yes, the God man, the font of all grace (Jesus), came into the world, in the flesh BY GOD’S own design.

Mary then, by definition, and from all eternity, is NOT the source of that, as you charged earlier , she is the Mediatrix of that.

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Mary could have said no.

No, it does not make her the Mediatrix of all Graces.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Did He know Mary would say ‘Yes?’ Knowing Him as I do, I say YES!

Was Mary free to say ‘No?’ - The answer is again, Yes.

What if she did say, NO?
You and I would not be here now!
Incredibly as it may sound, I reckon that Noah would not have been ‘called.’

And if Joseph suddenly decided to accuse her and have her stoned, you and I would not be here either. As I have said emphatically God is not limited to Mary.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

For instance, with regard to Genesis 3:15, Protestants ask themselves whether it was either Jesus or Mary who crushed the head of the serpent. The Catholic response is that both Jesus and Mary crushed its head. It wasn’t either Jesus or Mary, but both of them together. Mary fulfilled her part when she declared: “I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.” (Luke 1:38).

PAX

:heaven:

“He must increase and I must decrease.”

 

[AveOTheotokos]

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Mary could have said no.

No, it does not make her the Mediatrix of all Graces.

Story time…

There was a man named Guy. Guy created a couple people that would live forever. Unfortunately, these people disobeyed Guy and ate some funky fruit. The ultimate consequence of this disobedience was that the people and their descendants would now die.

Guy loved his creations, so he developed an idea for vaccine called Annointidone that could vaccinate people from death. He took his miracle vaccine and injected it into a baby at the moment of conception to prevent that baby from every being corrupted by death.

This baby was named Maria.

One day, a messenger from Guy came to Maria and greeted her saying “Hail Maria, full of antibodies!” and told Maria about Guy’s plan. Maria said "“Behold, I am the doctor of Guy; let it be to me according to your word.”

Through a patented trade secret called “spiritus Sanctus”, Guy took Maria’s DNA, infused it with enough Annointidone to cure the world, and gave it to Maria to protect.

For the next 30 years, Maria protected the vaccine. She carefully loaded it into syringes, packed it in cases, and prepared it for mass distribution.

When the time was right, she loaded it on a truck and took it to a World Heath Organization (WHO) banquet. There, she turned the Annointidone over, and you can probably figure out how the rest of the story goes…

So, in this story, Guy is the one who developed the salvific cure called Annointidone.

Annointidone is the source of all cure from death.

Guy chose to create Maria so (with her consent) he could use her pre-cured DNA to create the Annointidone that would save the world.

Guy didn’t just mail the Annointidone to everyone, but instead used Maria as a Mediatrix of Annointidone vaccines.

Maria did not create or develop Annointidone, nor is she herself a cure, but she contributed her pre-cured DNA towards it’s creation, provided it care, preparation, and protection, and brought it to the world by agreeing to do this and giving it over to the WHO.

So, just to make sure we aren’t using the term Mediatrix incorrectly for Maria, lets look at some definitions…

Definition of mediate

1:  occupying a middle position

2 a :  acting through an intervening agency 
   b :  exhibiting indirect causation, connection, or relation

Definition of mediator

1:  one that mediates; especially :  one that mediates between parties at variance

2:  a mediating agent in a physical, chemical, or biological process

Definition of mediatrix

:  a woman who is a mediator

So, Maria is a woman, who was a mediating agent in both a physical, chemical, and biological process that, through her intervention and indirect causation, brought Guy’s Annointidone into existence and acted in a middle position between Guy and the rest of the world for the distribution of Annointidone.

So, am I correct in calling Maria the Mediatrix of all Annointidone?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Story time.

So, Maria is a woman, who was a mediating agent in both a physical, chemical, and biological process that, through her intervention and indirect causation, brought Guy’s Annointidone into existence and acted in a middle position between Guy and the rest of the world for the distribution of Annointidone.

So, am I correct in calling Maria the Mediatrix of all Annointidone?

Mediation in this context is a person mediating between two parties. There is ONE Mediator before God and mankind.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Mediation in this context is a person mediating between two parties. There is ONE Mediator before God and mankind.

Christ is the one true Mediator.

And we are the Body of Christ.

Tim Staples explains this beautifully in the below article:

One Mediator Between God and Men

Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.

As someone mentioned earlier, think of Mary as the neck. She is part of the Body of Christ just like the rest of us, but her position is above us all, closest to her Son and, just like in Luke 2:35, the thoughts of the heart of the body flow through her to get to the head of the Body of Christ.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

1 Corinthians 12:12-31

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

God chose Mary for a special role and position in the “Body of Christ”. This role didn’t end when she died. The body can’t tell Mary “I have no need of you.” God arranged the organs in the body as he saw fit.

“If one member is honored, all rejoice together.” How pleased much the head be when we honor the neck?

Her position in the body was, is, and shall ever remain a critical part of the Body of Christ, and to remove it is to decapitate the head from the body.

 

[Good_Fella]

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Mary could have said no.

No, it does not make her the Mediatrix of all Graces.

Jesus merited all the graces we need for our salvation in his humanity which he acquired through Mary upon her Fiat. Mary freely gave her consent after the angel gave her the good news. In faith, she rejoiced in the opportunity to mediate the font of all grace to the world. This is not merely a theological opinion, but a teaching of the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church. Perhaps you should consider becoming a Protestant. We cannot be Catholic while rejecting Church teaching at the same time. I suggest you read the Marian encyclicals of the popes of this past century.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[steve_b]

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Mary could have said no.

No, it does not make her the Mediatrix of all Graces.

Yes it does

 

[steve_b]

Mediation in this context is a person mediating between two parties. There is ONE Mediator before God and mankind.

while this post wasn’t to you, it answers your point
#47

 

[Good_Fella]

And if Joseph suddenly decided to accuse her and have her stoned, you and I would not be here either. As I have said emphatically God is not limited to Mary.

God sent the angel Gabriel to Joseph in a dream, remember?

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

“He must increase and I must decrease.”

I just love how you take the Scriptures entirely out of context to use in support of your personal beliefs. Nobody here is claiming that Mary is the Messiah. John the Baptist made that statement when testifying that he was not the Christ, but rather his forerunner (John 3:26-30). Sorry, but I don’t have a taste for red herring.

Keep in mind that the Annunciation was just the beginning of Mary’s participation with Jesus in his redemptive work. Haven’t you ever wondered why Jesus called his mother “Woman” at the beginning and end of his public ministry? (Jn:2:3-8; 19:26-27). Mary decreased in her role as mother of Jesus as soon as she solicited him on behalf of the wedding guests. But, in the meantime, her role as our spiritual mother was still increasing. John’s role as prophet virtually came to an end once he baptized Jesus. And it finally did when he was beheaded.

PAX

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

God chose Mary for a special role and position in the “Body of Christ”. This role didn’t end when she died. The body can’t tell Mary “I have no need of you.” God arranged the organs in the body as he saw fit.

“If one member is honored, all rejoice together.” How pleased much the head be when we honor the neck?

Her position in the body was, is, and shall ever remain a critical part of the Body of Christ, and to remove it is to decapitate the head from the body.

Without the neck, how on earth can the body receive the signal graces (neural impulses) from the Head?

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

Mediation in this context is a person mediating between two parties. There is ONE Mediator before God and mankind.

You also, like living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2, 5

Catholics profess in one voice that Jesus Christ is the one Mediator between God and humankind (1 Tim 2:5), by which St. Paul means that Christ alone has redeemed the world and has reconciled the human race with the Father in strict justice (meritum de condigno) by serving as a ransom for the sins of the world through the shedding of his most precious blood (2:6). However, our Lord’s principal mediation in his humanity does not preclude the intercession of the faithful by right of friendship with God (meritum de congruo) in and through the merits of Christ through prayer and sacrifice for the salvation of all souls (1 Tim 2:1-4). In other words, the apostle has no intention of emphasizing that Jesus is the one and only mediator per se in the economy of salvation. The Christian faithful are indeed called to participate in our Lord’s mediation as active and living members of our Lord’s Mystical Body, who partake of the divine life. This prerogative is conferred by right of adoption as the sons and daughters of God, since it is in his humanity - not divinity - that Christ as Head intercedes for us all before the Father as both eternal High Priest and sacrificial victim.

Exegete Manuel Miguens has pointed out that translated from the Greek v.5 reads: ‘There is one and the same God for all, and there is one and the same mediator for all.’ It is Christ who serves as a ransom for us all with his sacred blood (v.6). The Father’s merciful love and the Son’s obedient act of atonement are for both Jew and Gentile alike. In v.5, the Greek word for “one” is heis (εἷς) which denotes “a sameness of function”. If St. Paul had meant that there is numerically one mediator in the divine plan of salvation, he would have chosen the word *monos *(μόνος) instead, for it “signifies ‘only’ in the sense of exclusive uniqueness.” In other words, Christ “alone” acts as a mediator, which is not what he is saying. Thus it is not that our Lord’s mediation in and of itself is exclusive, but rather that the significance and purpose of it is unique and enables us to merit divine grace for others in association with him by our intercessory prayers and sacrifices. Hence, Jesus is the one principal Mediator between God and man in a singular way, but he is not the one and only mediator in the Divine plan of salvation. The apostle doesn’t mean to say that, just as he isn’t saying that there is but only one God: There is one God for all. So as members of a royal priesthood, in and through the merits of Christ, all baptized Christians participate in their Lord’s mediation in accord with the function of being priests (1 Tim.2:1-4).

We Christians are not passive spectators in the Divine work of salvation, concerned only with our own souls in our personal relationship with Jesus, who alone acts as a mediator between God and humankind, but rather active participants in association with him “working together” (sunergountos) with God (2.Cor.6:1). Indeed, God “works for good with” (sunergei eis agathon) those who love him (Rom.8:28). Christ is the Mediator par excellence as Head of his Mystical Body, while its members who serve the Head mediate in and through him in a subordinate capacity. The Father honours our merits in collaboration with those of the Son, but not in coordination with his merits. St. James writes in his Epistle (5:16): “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” The evangelist concurs with St. Peter that our “being built up into a spiritual house” makes our prayers and sacrifices pleasing to God, “who desires that everyone be saved”, and subsequently efficacious. The Gospel of John implicitly underscores this truth in the narrative of the Wedding Feast at Cana, where we have Mary, the mother of our Lord, presented as a factual mediator (Abraham-Mary) and physical channel of divine grace through her charitable intercession on behalf of the wedding guests (cf. Gen.18:22-23).

"With the Mediator you are the Mediatrix of all the world." ***
*** St. Ephraem of Syria, Syri opera graeca latine, v.3 (A.D. 373)

PAX
:heaven:

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

God sent the angel Gabriel to Joseph in a dream, remember?

PAX
:heaven:

Still, by your logic if Joseph had decided to go against the dream…no Jesus.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Without the neck, how on earth can the body receive the signal graces (neural impulses) from the Head?

PAX
:heaven:

How is she the neck?