Co redemptrix dogmatically defined?

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Of course you are right Mary Jessica.

However, dissent arises when there is public opposition to the Magisterium. Whether deliberate or unintentional, the truth needs to be shown with facts. Unfortunately, some, for whatever reason, seem incapable of accepting and assenting to all that the Church teaches. We can only offer truth, the individual has to use faith and reason to overcome prejudice.

This has been so from Her founding by Christ.
 
I know:( Redemptoris Mater is a great book by our late Pope if anyone is having a hard time understanding the reasoning behind this. Pope John Paul was such a genius when it comes to investigating a topic from various viewpoints. It is not bad to assume that our limited minds may need an upgrade in our perceptions in order to understand something before we attack it. I think Pope John Paul a reliable resources for this.
 
Also I might add that the importance of this issue goes far beyond religious Dogma. The recognition of the Blessed Virgin is essential in the unfolding of the Triune Mystery and it’s role in the salvation of humanity. Just as Mary was essential in giving birth to our Savioir she is also essential in giving birth to her Son in the hearts of man. Mary is our model to follow in order to give birth to Christ in ourselves. In order to know Christ we must first become like His Mother. This step cannot be downplayed and is essential to our redemption. Thus the title of Co-Redemptrix fits perfectly. Notice her presence at the Pentecost when the holy spirit descends upon man just as it did Her. The book of revelation where She is crying out to give birth. This honor does not take away from our worship of Christ it adds to it.
 
The Magisterium has twice rejected the demand of some to make ‘Co-Redemptrix’ an official doctrine. That’s good enough for me. I am perfectly content to leave it up to the Magisterium. I also think those agitating for this are doing a disservice to The Church.
 
Ignatius
The Magisterium has twice rejected the demand of some to make ‘Co-Redemptrix’ an official doctrine.
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Only Ignatius has this fantasy – a fixation of monumental proportions that blinds him to truth. There is no such thing as “official” doctrine (post #156).
  1. The mixed Papal Commission, which is not a part of the Magisterium, made a recommendation. What was it?
    Note that the Papal Commission on contraception established by Pope John XXIII to determine the morality of the Pill and expanded by Pope Paul VI recommended to Pope Paul VI, in the majority report, to dissent from *Casti Connubii *of Pope Pius XI, and a minority remained faithful. Repeat: Papal Commissions are not part of the Magisterium.
  2. cephasministry.com/catholic_controversy_flares_over_marian_doctrine.html
    “On June 4, 1997, L’Osservatore Romano, the official Vatican newspaper, published a brief statement from a theological commission which had studied proposals to define the dogma of the Virgin Mary as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, and Advocate. The commission, which included both Catholic and non-Catholic theologians, recommended against a papal or magisterial definition of the dogmas at this time.”
  3. “The dogmas” “recommended against” cover the three doctrinal titles.
  4. You can easily seek help and check Ad Tuendam Fidem.
    In post #111 you will find: She teaches that an infallible DOCTRINE is a category 2 truth which requires the assent of ecclesial faith, as a secondary truth, “proposed definitively” (definitive proponuntur) to be “firmly embraced and held” (now Canon 750.2), in Pope John Paul’s Motu Proprio (= on his own authority) Apostolic Letter Ad Tuendam Fidem, 1998.
    In fact, the 1983 revision of Canon Law had replaced in #749.3 “dogmatically declared or defined” with “infallibly defined”, thus NOT expressing a limitation of infallibility to dogmas. ATF better enables Canon Law to apply to the understanding of infallibility including the Profession of Faith covering the two categories of doctrine.
She teaches that the category 3 truths are non-definitive (non-infallible) DOCTRINES and require intellectual assent ("loyal submission of the will and intellect", Lumen Gentium 25), not an assent of faith. [See the Explanatory Note on ATF by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith].
  1. Such dissent is inexcusable when the facts are so clear on the three titles affirmed as doctrine throughout the Church from very early days.
 
Abu said:
Only Ignatius has this fantasy – a fixation of monumental proportions that blinds him to truth. There is no such thing as “official” doctrine (post #156).
  1. The mixed Papal Commission, which is not a part of the Magisterium, made a recommendation. What was it?
    Note that the Papal Commission on contraception established by Pope John XXIII to determine the morality of the Pill and expanded by Pope Paul VI recommended to Pope Paul VI, in the majority report, to dissent from *Casti Connubii *of Pope Pius XI, and a minority remained faithful. Repeat: Papal Commissions are not part of the Magisterium.
  2. cephasministry.com/catholic_controversy_flares_over_marian_doctrine.html
    “On June 4, 1997, L’Osservatore Romano, the official Vatican newspaper, published a brief statement from a theological commission which had studied proposals to define the dogma of the Virgin Mary as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, and Advocate. The commission, which included both Catholic and non-Catholic theologians, recommended against a papal or magisterial definition of the dogmas at this time.”
  3. “The dogmas” “recommended against” cover the three doctrinal titles.
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The Magisterium of The Catholic Church has chosen to follow the Papal Comissions recommendation and twice has decided not declare the title ‘Co-Redemptrix’ as a doctrine.

I am perfectly content to leave it up to the Magisterial Authorities, and I’d like to point out to those reading this thread that those who are agitating are doing a disservice to The Church.
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Ignatius
The Magisterium of The Catholic Church has chosen to follow the Papal Comissions recommendation and twice has decided not declare the title ‘Co-Redemptrix’ as a doctrine.
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  1. False, as you now know. The Commission was about a dogma covering three titles – Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, and Advocate.
  2. Faithful Catholics know the difference between a dogma and a doctrine – when you learn the difference between a doctrine and a dogma you can then enter meaningful discussion of truth. As you have refused to assent to the truth repeatedly, that even the category 3 truths which are non-definitive (non-infallible) **DOCTRINES, require intellectual assent (“loyal submission of the will and intellect”, ***Lumen Gentium *25), not an assent of faith, the dissent is culpable.
  3. In *Redemptoris Mater *(Mother of the Redeemer), on the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Life of the Pilgrim Church, Pope John Paul II points out that this mediation of Mary Immaculate “is intimately linked with her motherhood,” and he notes with the Second Vatican Council that “the Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary,” in her being invoked by the Church as “a sharing in the one unique source that is the mediation of Christ himself” (RM 38).
  4. The Holy Father in his General Audience on Wednesday, March 30th, 2011: “Redemption is offered to all human beings ‘in abundance’. And precisely because it is Christological, Alphonsian piety is also exquisitely Marian. Deeply devoted to Mary he illustrates her role in the history of salvation: an associate in the Redemption and Mediatrix of grace, Mother, Advocate and Queen.”
    See: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110330_en.html
  5. On the doctrine of Co-redemptrix, an unassailable papal declaration is: “Therefore, one can say, she [that is, the Blessed Virgin] redeemed with Christ the human race.” Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter Inter soldalica, AAS 1918, 18.
I am perfectly content to leave it up to the Magisterial Authorities
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False, for you repeatedly deny the Magisterial doctrinal teaching which you have been quite unable to refute, substituting prejudice and promoting dissent.

Everyone else, whether asking for a dogma or not, is cognizant that the Magisterium will only declare a dogma if and when the Magisterium sees that to be the will of God, and guided by the Holy Spirit, and assents to the doctrine of the Magsiterium.
 
Abu said:
  1. On the doctrine of Co-redemptrix, an unassailable papal declaration is: “Therefore, one can say, she [that is, the Blessed Virgin] redeemed with Christ the human race.” Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter Inter soldalica, AAS 1918, 18.
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Sorry my dearest friend in Christ, your declaration that it is a doctrine does not carry any weight whatsoever. Co-redemptrix is not a doctrine and the title, as has been repeatedly pointed our here, is entirely too ambiguous to be used as a basis of doctrine.

May the peace and love of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and may you have a blessed and holy Pascha.

Your brother in Christ.
 
catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=424
There are four specific dogmas stating Mary’s personal relationship with God and her role in human salvation .
  1. Divine Motherhood
  2. Perpetual Virginity
  3. Immaculate Conception
  4. The Assumption
    There is no question that they are dogmas, to be believed with the assent of divine and Catholic faith. (Canon #750.1).
This is where Ignatius confuses himself, since " ‘doctrine’ (doctrina) – is a general term which covers both dogmas and the secondary, related truths.” (Fr Brian Harrison, Humanae Vitae And Infallibity, 1987 at: rtforum.org/lt/lt12.html

But no one designates the titles as dogmas. Not only has Ignatius set himself up against the revered Fr William G Most, but also against the revered Fr Robert J Levis of EWTN, both of whom affirm the doctrine as contained in the three titles; he is against the Doctors of the Church, the Popes and Vatican II. (See posts #168, 156,142, 103).

Clearly, we see in Pope Benedict XV’s statement the doctrines of the Coredemptrix and Mediatrix: Mary “redeemed the human race together with Christ” and “administers” those graces which flow from the redemption. Benedict XV further endorsed the term “Mediatrix” through the prescript of the Congregation of Rites that approved a Mass and Office of Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces.

Thus Lumen Gentium #56 speaks forthrightly of Mary’s collaboration in the work of redemption:
‘Committing herself whole-heartedly to God’s saving will and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally, as a handmaid of the Lord, to the person and work of her Son, under and with him, serving the mystery of redemption, by the grace of Almighty God. Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching: “the knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “Mother of the living,” and frequently claim: “death through Eve, life through Mary.” ’

Quite clearly, then, the Council Fathers speak of an active collaboration of Mary in the work of the redemption and they illustrate this with the Eve/Mary parallel, found already in the writings of the sub-Apostolic Fathers, Saint Justin Martyr (+165), Irenaeus (+ after 193) and Tertullian (+ 220)

As Fr William G Most affirms, Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught. The Council would (and could) not have so done if this was merely the expression of personal opinions by these Popes. The Council teaches that she was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (59). There are twelve Papal Texts speaking of Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces. [See *Our Father’s Plan, 1988, Trinity Communications, p 92-93]. He calls Vatican II a Marian Council for its teaching on Mary.

But such dissent as to deny the Doctors of the Church, the doctrine of Vatican II, and the Popes referred to therein, is inexcusable, especially as the Vatican II doctrine has been expressly cited.

In *Redemptoris Mater *(Mother of the Redeemer), on the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Life of the Pilgrim Church, Pope John Paul II points out that this mediation of Mary Immaculate “is intimately linked with her motherhood,” and he notes with the Second Vatican Council that “the Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary,” in her being invoked by the Church as “a sharing in the one unique source that is the mediation of Christ himself” (RM 38).

The Holy Father in his General Audience on Wednesday, March 30th, 2011: “Redemption is offered to all human beings ‘in abundance’. And precisely because it is Christological, Alphonsian piety is also exquisitely Marian. Deeply devoted to Mary he illustrates her role in the history of salvation: an associate in the Redemption and Mediatrix of grace, Mother, Advocate and Queen.”

The doctrines on **Mary as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, and Advocate **are clearly taught by the Doctors of the Church, the Popes and Vatican II.

A refusal to face reality on dogma and doctrine cannot be allowed to pervert truth.

A blessed Easter to all.
 
I was listening to iCatholic this morning. I didn’t realize there is a whole campaign to have a fifth Marian doctrine defined: Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix.

I didn’t realize people like Scott Hahn are pushing for this and that there are online petitions going on.

Goodness!

Why are people pushing for this?

Why must there be all this Marian dogmas? Christ should be the center.
 
I was recently browsing the crazy end of youtube and reading all the Illuminati ; Mason; New world order conspiracy theories and one theory was that catholic worship ( i use their terms ) of Mary is really the worship of an ancient goddess like venus or aphrodite and that this would be one of the ways they would unite people by uniting them under the banner of the female goddess inherant in many faith systems. Of course this I know is crazy. But when I see the stubborn refusal of people to take the advise of the Vatican about the risks of the Co-Redemtrix as a dogma twice turned down already and then when I read in another Marian site talking about the idea that Mary and The holy Spirit are in a perfect union so perfect as to be almost spiritually one ( words may not be exact but idea is ) its no great jump to put Mary into the Trinity and they she becomes God. There was a minor cult that believed something like this in ancient times and the Muslims thought that Christians believed Mary was part of Trinity to probably a hangover of stories about that previous heracy.

So maybe Abu and other Pushers against the Vaticans caution are Illuminati trying to get their heracy up and running 😃
 
TrueLight
I didn’t realize there is a whole campaign to have a fifth Marian doctrine defined: Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix.
I didn’t realize people like Scott Hahn are pushing for this and that there are online petitions going on.
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There are many faithful Catholics who seek a dogma – that is their right – the only reason that Rome had a Commission (which included Protestants) was to examine the wisdom of proclaiming the doctrine of the three titles, at this time in history, as a dogma. Simple. Rome has not done so yet.
thirddec
So maybe Abu and other Pushers against the Vaticans caution are Illuminati trying to get their heracy (sic) up and running.
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  1. Such inane comments may confuse some, but post #122 clearly emphasises the fact that Abu was accused falsely of being determined to declare the thread title a Dogma. He has never promoted this. (See post #113).
  2. Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and Catholic faith.” (A dogma).
    To ask for a doctrine to be declared a dogma is NOT “heresy”.
  3. Christ IS God. God chose the Blessed Mother to be conceived without Original Sin.
    In *Redemptoris Mater *(Mother of the Redeemer), 1987, Blessed John Paul II teaches that Jesus prepared His Mother to become for ALL people their "Mother in the order of Grace (39); this is because “Mary is united by a close and indissoluble bond” to Christ. (41). Thus Mary embraces each and every one in the Church, and embraces each and every one through the Church (47). This is from the Pope’s ordinary Magisterium.
 
Abu said:
Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and Catholic faith.” .
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The problematic Co-Redemptrix title is not a doctrine of The Church and has not been declared as something that “must be believed”. In fact, the magisterium has twice stated that the term is too ambiguous.
Those pushing this issue are clearly formenting trouble.
 
Ignatius
The problematic Co-Redemptrix title is not a doctrine of The Church and has not been declared as something that “must be believed”.
Click to expand...
Not only has Ignatius set himself up against the revered Fr William G Most, but also against the revered Fr Robert J Levis of EWTN both of whom affirm the doctrine as contained in the three titles; he is against the Doctors of the Church, the Popes and Vatican II. (See posts #168, 156,142, 103, 224). Such public opposition to the Magisterium is dissent.
Those pushing this issue are clearly formenting (sic) trouble.
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Try telling that to Dr Scott Hahn – the great convert, and the many balanced, faithful Catholics, cardinals, bishops, priests, religious and lay who merely support the raising of the doctrine of these three titles to that of a dogma.
Fancy assuming the nature of an alternative magisterium by accusing all of these good people of causing trouble – which is what you mean, although the correct term is “foment”.

Readers now know from where the trouble comes – from those who don’t know and don’t understand the mind of the Church and Her careful and deliberate expression of the three categories of truths to which assent is required, intellectual, on the faith of the Church or on divine and Catholic faith.
 
Abu said:
Not only has Ignatius set himself up against the revered Fr William G Most, but also against the revered Fr Robert J Levis of EWTN both of whom affirm the doctrine as contained in the three titles;.
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The Church has not declared this to be a doctrine and, furthermore, The Magisterium has twice agreed with it’s commissions on, rejecting adoption of the problematic title of C-Redemptrix citing the fact that it is too ambiguous. As far as I’m concerned, the Magisterium has spoken. However if this is not good enough for you, I’m perfectly willing to wait for the magisterium to make an even mroe definitive statment and I believe that others should do likewise.

Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!
 
Abu said:
Readers now know from where the trouble comes – from those who don’t know and don’t understand the mind of the Church and Her careful and deliberate expression of the three categories of truths to which assent is required, intellectual, on the faith of the Church or on divine and Catholic faith.
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Well im guessing the real trouble comes from those that tell me when im praying to God Almighty i’m praying to Allah the God of the Quran as they are the same. While they do that you guys are sitting here playing ping pong .

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=501969 :mad:
 
It is quite intolerable in this forum to have Pope Benedict XVI denigrated as a know-nothing for declaring in his General Audience on Wednesday, March 30th, 2011: “Redemption is offered to all human beings ‘in abundance’. And precisely because it is Christological, Alphonsian piety is also exquisitely Marian. Deeply devoted to Mary he illustrates her role in the history of salvation: an associate in the Redemption and Mediatrix of grace, Mother, Advocate and Queen.”
See: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110330_en.html

For that is precisely what Ignatius is implying, and not only of our Holy Father but of all the great saints, Church Fathers, theologians, and several popes. “Mary Coredemptrix” is a clarion call that reverberates throughout hundreds of years of Church history, from as early as the second century, to the present Vicar of Christ.
all-about-the-virgin-mary.com/coredemptrix.html

Blessed John Paul II and Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta are similarly denigrated.

Edouard Cardinal Gagnon, P.S.S., President Emeritus of the Pontifical Council for the Family and the Pontifical Committee for International Eucharistic Congresses:
“In truth, how can any faithful Catholic question the appropriateness of the Coredemptrix title as applied to our Blessed Mother when it has been pronounced by a litany of popes, saints, blessed, mystics, doctors of the Church, and conciliar theologians throughout the history of the Church, including Pope John Paul II?”

Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught.

The three titles Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, and Advocate are all used by the Magisterium, an indisputable sign of approval of this doctrine. Prior to Vatican II, the four Marian dogmas (her divine Maternity, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception and Assumption) do not of themselves betoken any conspicuously ecclesial or “social” role of Mary. But during the Council we witnessed a “subtle shift” when Pope Paul proclaimed Mary as “Mother of the Church.” His words received a unique standing ovation. Then the Council annunciated in its own name Mary as “Mediatrix” - again, a title that by definition is more than strictly personal to her.

Significant also is the Council’s decision to include its tract on Mary in its *Dogmatic Constitution on the Church *(Lumen Gentium), rather than issuing it as an independent document or including it in any of the other fifteen documents. Quite clearly, then, the Council Fathers speak of an active collaboration of Mary in the work of the redemption and they illustrate this with the Eve/Mary parallel, found already in the writings of the sub-Apostolic Fathers, Saint Justin Martyr (+165), Irenaeus (+ after 193) and Tertullian (+ 220)

The denial of these truths – the epitome of dissent – is an affront to all faithful Catholics.
 
Do you even stop to read what people post or are you some robotic responce abu. Read my last post and repond to it plz>
 
thirddec
What is there to reply to concerning the teaching declared in the three titles?
 
Abu said:
thirddec
What is there to reply to concerning the teaching declared in the three titles?
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nothing but as you and your foe in this thread are just going over old ground I was curious to wat your opinion was that the God you pray to and Allah that the Muslims pray to are possably the same. So Mary may be a co-redemprix with Allah of the Muslims if we are not carefull.
 
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