Co-Redemptrix?

[Mike_D30]

I’m very bummed about this, I recently reverted back to the Catholic Church after Church hopping and being agnostic for a while.

When I first came back I was pumped, I got past Papal infallibility, I love the idea of the Real Presence in fact that’s what lead me back. I love Mary and hold her in very high esteem, and have no issue asking her to pray for me, and intercede on my behalf.

But today was my first encounter with “co-redemptrix”, and my stomach has sunk ever since. I can’t accept Mary as a co-redeemer with Christ, that is heresy to me. There is one redeemer and that is Christ. Giving Mary the title Co-redeemer is exalting her to the same place as Christ, and I can’t grasp how that is anything but heresy.

This has all happened fast for me (I just recieved investiture into teh Carmelite order for the Brown Scapular, this is where some questions came from for me), I think I’ll take a step back, breath deep and one of you good folks can give me an explanation. I’ve heard some trying to validate why Mary is “co-redeemer” which doesn’t float to me, more what I’m looking for is that Mary is not a co-redeemer, this isn’t dogma, and I’m not required to believe any of it.

Mary gave birth to Christ she was pure and blessed amongst women. However Christ attoned for our sins through His suffering, and redeemed us. Not Mary’s giving birth or Mary’s suffering at the cross, that didn’t redeem us. Everyone suffers, it doesn’t make them redeemers, Christ redeemed us becasue it was Gods son, the Word made flesh dieing on the Cross at Calvary. Mary is a woman she can’t redeem us, co or otherwise.

I know there are some very smart people here, people a lot smarter than I am. So I’m hoping to hear that this isn’t a “must” to believe. I had no idea that this was taught in the Catholic Church.

God Bless all help is appreciated

 

[awfulthings9]

Mike_D30:

I’m very bummed about this, I recently reverted back to the Catholic Church after Church hopping and being agnostic for a while.

When I first came back I was pumped, I got past Papal infallibility, I love the idea of the Real Presence in fact that’s what lead me back. I love Mary and hold her in very high esteem, and have no issue asking her to pray for me, and intercede on my behalf.

But today was my first encounter with “co-redemptrix”, and my stomach has sunk ever since. I can’t accept Mary as a co-redeemer with Christ, that is heresy to me. There is one redeemer and that is Christ. Giving Mary the title Co-redeemer is exalting her to the same place as Christ, and I can’t grasp how that is anything but heresy.

This has all happened fast for me (I just recieved investiture into teh Carmelite order for the Brown Scapular, this is where some questions came from for me), I think I’ll take a step back, breath deep and one of you good folks can give me an explanation. I’ve heard some trying to validate why Mary is “co-redeemer” which doesn’t float to me, more what I’m looking for is that Mary is not a co-redeemer, this isn’t dogma, and I’m not required to believe any of it.

Mary gave birth to Christ she was pure and blessed amongst women. However Christ attoned for our sins through His suffering, and redeemed us. Not Mary’s giving birth or Mary’s suffering at the cross, that didn’t redeem us. Everyone suffers, it doesn’t make them redeemers, Christ redeemed us becasue it was Gods son, the Word made flesh dieing on the Cross at Calvary. Mary is a woman she can’t redeem us, co or otherwise.

I know there are some very smart people here, people a lot smarter than I am. So I’m hoping to hear that this isn’t a “must” to believe. I had no idea that this was taught in the Catholic Church.

God Bless all help is appreciated

Hey Mike,

First off, welcome back!!

Secondly, the title of co-redeemer is not dogma. It is not a required title for Mary.

Thirdly, if the title meant that Mary in some way redeemed us, I would leave the church today. The doctrine simply means (and I’m really simplifying here), that we must all cooperate with God in our salvation. He offers us faith as a free gift and we must accept. He offers us works as a free gift and we must accept. However, the reason we need salvation is because our original parents rejected God in a big way. Given that we must cooperate with God, Mary is the first to cooperate with him by saying “let it be done according to your will.” Through this act (which was only possible through the grace of God, not her own ability), Mary typifies the same acceptance we must all have and reversed the act of Eve by accepting God in a way that negated Eve’s rejection. She is only co-redeemer in this way - but NOT because her actions somehow expiated our sins.

 

[m134e5]

Co-Redemptrix simply means Mary helps in the salvation of the world. You could say we are all co-redemptrixes- because we all can pray for each other, though Mary’s role is special- because by her Fiat, she cooperated with God to bring the Savior of the world into the world. She also prays to God for us, and is in a particularly close union with him because she never sinned. The title doesn’t imply Mary has any power of her own, or that she is divine. Really, it only makes a logical conclusion from beliefs that have been held about Mary for years (that she can pray for us, etc.)

 

[Todd_Easton]

The title simply means that the Virgin Mary had an extremely important role in our redemption and refers to her obedient acceptance of her call to be the mother of the Redeemer. Early Christians were not shy in referring to the Virgin Mary as “the cause of salvation”:

In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, book 3, chap. 22, paragraph 4, written about A.D. 189.)

 

[JB]

We’ve already been through this on another thread only a couple hours ago. Co- does not mean equal to Christ, it means with Christ. If it did mean equal to Christ, that would indeed be heretical, but it doesn’t, so it’s not.

If you have difficulty with the word, you are certainly free not to use it. The important thing isn’t the word, but what the word means. Just ask yourself this: do I believe that Mary conformed her life to God’s will, just as all Christians are called to do, and that she fully cooperated with her Son in the time and place and with the mission that God entrusted to her? If so, then you really have no problem with Mary as Co-redemptrix, because that’s all it means.

God Bless.

 

[Mike_D30]

JB.:

We’ve already been through this on another thread only a couple hours ago. Co- does not mean equal to Christ, it means with Christ. If it did mean equal to Christ, that would indeed be heretical, but it doesn’t, so it’s not.

If you have difficulty with the word, you are certainly free not to use it.

This is what I’m not looking for, this is my salvation, I do not take it lightly, if I offend you I apologize, but I just want sincere replies. If it’s just been covered, obviously it wasn’t what I was looking for, or I wouldn’t have poored my heart out for you all to read.

Thanks for the responses I’ll read through them all in more detail when I get home from work.

 

[JB]

Mike_D30:

This is what I’m not looking for, this is my salvation, I do not take it lightly, if I offend you I apologize, but I just want sincere replies. If it’s just been covered, obviously it wasn’t what I was looking for, or I wouldn’t have poored my heart out for you all to read.

Thanks for the responses I’ll read through them all in more detail when I get home from work.

No, I’m not offended. Nor do I doubt your sincerity. But it does make me wonder if you really believe our sincerity when you begin a new thread containing:

Mike_D30:

…Giving Mary the title Co-redeemer is exalting her to the same place as Christ…

only a couple hours after participating in a discussion on another thread where people have taken great pains to explain that that is **not ** what Co-redemptrix means. It’s okay if you don’t understand the term and want to work it out, but please don’t impute to the term a false definition that has already been denied.

It’s okay if you don’t believe that mary is Co-redemptrix, but if you do so, disbelieve it based on what the Church truly teaches, and not on a false definition.

Likewise, if I offend you by telling you this, I apololgize.

 

[Mike_D30]

JB.:

No, I’m not offended. Nor do I doubt your sincerity. But it does make me wonder if you really believe our sincerity when you begin a new thread containing:

only a couple hours after participating in a discussion on another thread where people have taken great pains to explain that that is **not ** what Co-redemptrix means. It’s okay if you don’t understand the term and want to work it out, but please don’t impute to the term a false definition that has already been denied.

It’s okay if you don’t believe that mary is Co-redemptrix, but if you do so, disbelieve it based on what the Church truly teaches, and not on a false definition.

Likewise, if I offend you by telling you this, I apololgize.

Moderator can we close this thread, I’m not looking for a debate. For some reason JB is, this isn’t what I was looking for, I’m out…

 

[Will]

Mike_D30:

Moderator can we close this thread, I’m not looking for a debate. For some reason JB is, this isn’t what I was looking for, I’m out…

Mike - What exactly are you looking for?
It sounds like you just need some time to work it out in your head. I know it took me awhile to truly “know” that the modern meaning of co- and what is meant to be conveyed by the title are very different.

 

[GodBlessJoanie]

Hi there, and welcome home.

Please don’t misunderstand. The word “CO” doesn’t me equal! It means that Mary was the first true follower of Jesus Christ, she was the first disciple, the first Tabernacle.

It is THROUGH THE BLESSED MOTHER that we receive Jesus Christ. Only GOD could choose HIS own Mother and HE made Mary.

Also, no matter what title of reverence we give the Blessed Mother, don’t ever believe that Jesus is jealous or angry. Can we give the Blessed Mother TOO much reverence? *** NO!***

Is an artist ever angry because we linger and oooohhh and ahhhh over his creation? *** NO!***

When we give Mary reverence and honor*** (NOT WORSHIP)*** – we are also acknowledging the Creator, Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps.
Blessings,
Joanie

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Let’s just settle this now. Co-redemptrix is not doctrine nor is it dogma. You are still a Catholic in good standing if you don’t believe this. But what you must believe, because it is there in Scripture, is that Mary cooperated with the Will of God (she did not have to, God would not have forced her to) to bring Jesus into the world. That’s all you have to believe. You don’t have to believe she’s a co-redemptrix.

 

[kquinn]

Hi Mike,
welcome back…

Perhaps this article will be of help:

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9211fea3.asp

This actually seems to be a common misconstruing of the Catholic belief of Mary’s position, so don’t be concerned about having questions regarding it.

Also, perhaps “Ask the Apologist” can offer some clarity if we are unable to provide it. If you do seek more info on the internet, I advise you to stick to catholic sites (as they have a more accurate and complete understanding and definition of the title). I just did a google and came up with some wacky (and generally overall incorrect) info from non-catholic sites…that based their arguments on flawed views that they felt the Church held.

Hope this helps,
God bless,

k

 

[JB]

Mike_D30:

Moderator can we close this thread, I’m not looking for a debate. For some reason JB is, this isn’t what I was looking for, I’m out…

I’m not looking for a debate either, and I’m sorry if this has turned into one. Can we start over with the understanding that the “Co-” in Co-redemptrix does not mean “equal to Christ”, but rather “in cooperation with, while fully subordinate to, Christ”, and go forward from there?

 

[Mordocai]

this is really why we should use different terms in regarding some of our theology. (though anyone seeing something ‘offensive’ should def. look into it, as the OP has done)

co-redemptrix has that kind of gasp factor to it. but really it simply points to her fiat, and her continued fiat at calvary.

what are some other ideas for a title that would better describe this aspect of Mary’s role? it’s a term i will not use in discussion with protestants, becuase then you’d have to spend much more time explaining the term rather than the significance of it’s meaning.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Mordocai:

co-redemptrix has that kind of gasp factor to it. but really it simply points to her fiat, and her continued fiat at calvary.

I must admit that I “gasped” when I first heard the term co-redemptrix, but since then I have no trouble with it and the truth of it is now plainly obvious to me. Theological terms aside I reduced it down to “bare bones” terms I could understand:

1. God has always required human cooperation and Mary cooperated.
2. Mary’s cooperation resulted in the Incarnation of our Lord.
3. Because of Mary’s cooperation; everything we received from Christ finds it’s source from God the Father, transmitted personally and literally through Mary and made manifest in the person of Jesus.

 

[m134e5]

Mordocai:

this is really why we should use different terms in regarding some of our theology. (though anyone seeing something ‘offensive’ should def. look into it, as the OP has done)

co-redemptrix has that kind of gasp factor to it. but really it simply points to her fiat, and her continued fiat at calvary.

what are some other ideas for a title that would better describe this aspect of Mary’s role? it’s a term i will not use in discussion with protestants, becuase then you’d have to spend much more time explaining the term rather than the significance of it’s meaning.

I agree. The Catholic Church has its own way of wording things (Co-Redemptrix- most of the time I think “equal to” as well)- or uses archaic ways of wording things (praying TO saints- really, it’s not hard to figure out what it means- Shakespeare used it to simply mean “ask” all the time- but a few centuries later, it means what you do to talk to God).

 

[JB]

m134e5:

I agree. The Catholic Church has its own way of wording things (Co-Redemptrix- most of the time I think “equal to” as well)- or uses archaic ways of wording things (praying TO saints- really, it’s not hard to figure out what it means- Shakespeare used it to simply mean “ask” all the time- but a few centuries later, it means what you do to talk to God).

Close, but I wouldn’t put it quite that way. I wouldn’t say that the Church uses archaic ways of wording things, but rather that the Church uses very precice and accurate ways of wording things, which may very well be contemporary popular usage at the times these terms are first discussed or defined. Then, after the Church has largely settled on a particular terminology, she tends not to change it for official or formal usage, even though languages, dialects and jargon tend to shift and change from time to time and place to place throughout the rest of the world. This preference for linguistic stability is largely why Latin is still the Official Language of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Christus_Rex]

“Co-redemptrix” is not doctrine or dogma! You don’t have to believe this!!!

 

[John_Henry]

Mike_D30:

But today was my first encounter with “co-redemptrix”, and my stomach has sunk ever since. I can’t accept Mary as a co-redeemer with Christ, that is heresy to me. There is one redeemer and that is Christ. Giving Mary the title Co-redeemer is exalting her to the same place as Christ, and I can’t grasp how that is anything but heresy.

OK, first, welcome back. Second, you got past the other teachings, remain open to this one too. Third, think about it. I presume you have got past the Immaculate Conception. What does that teach? That Mary was redeemed by Christ from the first moment of her conception. Right? So, what the Church says about co-redemptrix cannot mean that she is the redeemer, because she herself was redeemed. As you say, Christ is the redeemer. There is no other.

Having said that, that places Mary in the same boat as us, albeit it, she holds a little priority from not having sinned. But we’re in the same boat. Redeemed by the Redeemer. Now, I’ll say to you what I said to you in the other thread, before I saw this one:

Catholics are called to “fill up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions on behalf of his body, the Church” (Col. 1:24). We are to pick up our crosses, and in enduring the sufferings of this life, to participate in the redemption of the world. That is the Catholic meaning of suffering. Now, granted, we only do this in an analogous fashion, as all of our merits are Christ’s merits. But nevertheless, Christ our older brother wishes to associate his younger siblings with his work. That is the tremendous dignity to which we have been called. It is in this framework that the doctrine of the co-redemption makes sense. Mary is just like us, “filling up what is lacking.” However, being the Immaculate One, she simply fills it up a little more. Hence she gets a title and we don’t. Rather than boning up on Mary, I encourage you to bone up on suffering (read first Peter, where he confidently declares that he share in Christ’s sufferings; 4:13). Mary’s role in redemption will make much more sense in that light.

Also, read JP2’s Redemptoris Mater, if you have time. He talks about it in there. And his *Salvifici Doloris, *where he speaks of the meaning of suffering.

Take your time. Take a deep breath. Everything will be fine. Christ is still our Redeemer.

 

[Mike_O]

“Co-redemptrix” is not doctrine or dogma! You don’t have to believe this!!!

I think you’re a bit misleading here.

Just because something is not dogma does not mean that we are not bound to belief.

The doctrine of Mary’s role as co-redemptrix, as others have pointed out, is logical when one merely examines the facts; her fiat, God’s choosing her when He had no need to choose any human being to effect redemption, and Jesus’s reply to His mother’s request for a miracle and His commending of her to St. John and to all mankind on the cross.

This is not “blind” faith–nor should any faith be blind. Those having trouble “accepting” the concept usually need to do a bit more reading and consider the points in prayer.