Codependant origination and emptiness

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Christianity also provides a path to the cessation of suffering … but more … the triumph of immortal joy.
Yes but cessation of suffering in Christianity is some time off, eventually. In buddhism cessation of suffering is here and now. Even in the depths of Hell you don’t have to suffer. Now that’s a message IMO. Jesus knew all this. But he wasn’t talking to you on this one. I wouldn’t call him a Buddha but I personally believe he was a bodhissatva of some degree. All suffering is self created. I believe he could forgive sins and I believe in the sacraments.

😉
 
One thing in Christianity that I can’t understand is that heaven, hell and earth are created. So they must have an end. Heaven and Earth will pass away but Hell is eternal. That makes absolutely no sense. I’m sure the church has some answer for it but it sounds like a scare tactic to me. All that has a beginning has a middle and end. But I’m here to learn on this thread, not to teach.
 
Self dependence is always part of the picture: X cannot exist unless X exists. The question is whether the existence of X depends on other things as well. Self-dependence is indeed part of the picture but the principle of economy restricts
it to one Being at the very outset.
Which is why Buddhism provides the path to the cessation of suffering.
rossum
 
Self-dependence is indeed part of the picture but the principle of economy restricts it to one Being at the very outset.
The principle of economy restricts it to zero beings at the outset and thereafter. Since a self-existent being cannot be a cause then there is no logical necessity for it. Being a cause is an extrinsic property, not an intrinsic property, so a purely self-existent being cannot have any externally caused properties.

rossum
 
“And the cessation of peace, joy and love. Negativity reigns supreme…”

As well it should without a God who offers joy.
 
rossum

“The ultimate truth is that there is no Ultimate Truth.”

If there is only one ultimate truth, how do you know for a fact the one you offer is the one?
 
Self-dependence is indeed part of the picture but the principle of economy restricts it to one Being at the very outset.
“Nothing shall come of nothing”. - King Lear

“thereafter” implies that existence is an illusion, a belief no sane person holds in daily life.
Since a self-existent being cannot be a cause then there is no logical necessity for it.
Logical necessity is a far cry from existential necessity. Why equate them - unless to reach a preconceived conclusion?
Being a cause is an extrinsic property, not an intrinsic property, so a purely self-existent being cannot have any externally caused properties.
How do you reach that conclusion? Have you met any self-existent beings? :hmmm:
 
If there is only one ultimate truth, how do you know for a fact the one you offer is the one?
There is not one ultimate truth, there is no ultimate truth.

Anything written in any human language cannot be ultimate truth. At most it can be conventional truth, since all meanings in human languages are conventional.

For example, the conventional meaning of “elf” among English speakers is a mythological humanoid. The conventional meaning of “elf” among German speakers is the number 11. In neither case does “elf” have an absolute meaning, and hence it cannot be used to express an ultimate truth.

rossum
 
There is not one ultimate truth, there is no ultimate truth.

Anything written in any human language cannot be ultimate truth. At most it can be conventional truth, since all meanings in human languages are conventional.

For example, the conventional meaning of “elf” among English speakers is a mythological humanoid. The conventional meaning of “elf” among German speakers is the number 11. In neither case does “elf” have an absolute meaning, and hence it cannot be used to express an ultimate truth.

rossum
“existence” has an absolute meaning. There are no half-measures like “partly exists”…
 
“Nothing shall come of nothing”. - King Lear
And we all know that King Lear is fiction.
“thereafter” implies that existence is an illusion, a belief no sane person holds in daily life.
Existence may or may not be an illusion – it is impossible to falsify the “brain in a jar” model. What is certainly an illusion is the mistaken model of existence that we hold inside our heads. That includes the illusion that our internal model is perfectly accurate. It is not.
Logical necessity is a far cry from existential necessity.
You referred to the principle of economy. That principle does not require anything self-existent due to such a thing’s inability to impact anything else. When you have anything self-existent that is all that you get. Only the non-self-existent can be a cause, since causation is not a self-existent property. Hence the principle of economy gets rid of any and all self-existent entities.
Have you met any self-existent beings?
No. All beings I have ever met have been caused, and so are not self-existent.

rossum
 
“existence” has an absolute meaning. There are no half-measures like “partly exists”…
No, “existence” is a word in the English language. It is meaningless in Russian, it is not even written in meaningful Cyrillic characters.

The characters “existence” only have conventional meaning, as looked up in an English language dictionary. You will not find that character combination in a Russian dictionary or a Chinese dictionary. Hence the meaning of “existence” is not absolute, but relative. Relative to whatever dictionary you are using.

You cannot express the absolute using relative, non-absolute, symbols.

The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon, and can never be the moon. It is only a finger pointing. You are mistaking the finger for the moon. That is an error.

rossum
 
There is not one ultimate truth, there is no ultimate truth.

Anything written in any human language cannot be ultimate truth. At most it can be conventional truth, since all meanings in human languages are conventional.
It is not merely convention that says, and says absolutely, “I think; therefore I am.”

If that is a mere convention, I’m not going to attend. 😃
 
No, “existence” is a word in the English language. It is meaningless in Russian, it is not even written in meaningful Cyrillic characters.

The characters “existence” only have conventional meaning, as looked up in an English language dictionary. You will not find that character combination in a Russian dictionary or a Chinese dictionary. Hence the meaning of “existence” is not absolute, but relative. Relative to whatever dictionary you are using.

You cannot express the absolute using relative, non-absolute, symbols.

The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon, and can never be the moon. It is only a finger pointing. You are mistaking the finger for the moon. That is an error.

rossum
You are confusing language with meaning. The word “existence” varies but its meaning does not change: it has been, is and always will be the opposite of non-existence.

As Juliet pointed out, a rose by any other name smells as sweet. And it is an absolute **fact **that roses exist now even if they cease to exist. Facts are eternal, immutable and destructible. Nothing can ever change what has happened: once a fact always a fact! They cannot be disposed of as easily as relativists think…
 
You are confusing language with meaning. The word “existence” varies but its meaning does not change: it has been, is and always will be the opposite of non-existence.
Meaning is something each person assigns to a symbol. Consider “spider”. I have a general idea of “spider” in my brain which I match with certain things that I see, and that I also match with the symbol “spider”. An arachnologist will also have an idea of “spider” in her brain, which is far more detailed than my internal idea and is built on her years of reading and study of spiders. An arachnophobe also has an idea of “spider” in his brain, and that idea contains a large amount of sheer terror as well as something similar to my idea.

There are three different “meanings” connected to the symbols “spider”. Which is correct? All, some or none of them? It is impossible for us to directly sense the spider as all our senses are indirect – they reduce to electrical impulses arriving on our sensory nerves. The brain matches patterns in the incoming impulses and retrieves the match “spider” from its internal storage. Each of us has our own individual matching pattern for “spider” in our heads, built from our own personal experiences.

Your internal pattern will differ, at least slightly, from my internal pattern. Neither of us has any direct contact with the external spider. Even our sense of touch is electrical impulses from sensors in the skin transmitted along nerves to the brain.

There may be a real external entity that we match with “spider”. There may merely be a bit-pattern in some Matrix-style computer feeding impulses along our nerves. We cannot tell the difference.

Does the external spider exist, in absolute terms? Does any of our internal spider-images exist in absolute terms? Can we prove the absolute existence of any of these things, bearing in mind the possibility that the whole thing is an elaborate Matrix-style virtual reality simulation?

I will grant you the contingent existence of the external spider as a convenient way of dealing with a world that seems to be reasonably consistent. I will not grant any absolute existence unless you have an absolute proof to show me.

A contingent proof can only prove a contingent existence.
Facts are eternal, immutable and destructible.
If they are immutable then they cannot be destroyed. If they can be destroyed then they are not immutable. Was “indestructible” intended here?

rossum
 
There is not one ultimate truth, there is no ultimate truth.

Anything written in any human language cannot be ultimate truth. At most it can be conventional truth, since all meanings in human languages are conventional.

rossum
Right and theology and the tantric studies both seem to work and achieve the goal so what way you go doesn’t matter. Those who argue these things obviously haven’t been clearing karma or they would lose the desire to argue. There are some religious and political agendas and power struggles going on though here.
 
I’m afraid you will have to remain :confused: until you do the work that has been put before us. It will be God and the elders to talk to you. It’s not my job. We’ve been told time and time again, “He who seeks will find”. You will have to find your calling.
 
I’m afraid you will have to remain :confused: until you do the work that has been put before us. It will be God and the elders to talk to you. It’s not my job. We’ve been told time and time again, “He who seeks will find”. You will have to find your calling.
I will tell you this “truth”. When they scream “The devil is among us!” Run to him. Embrace him, find out who he is…And maybe you will learn the truth 🙂

“Unruly beings are as unlimited as space
They cannot possibly all be overcome,
But if I overcome thoughts of anger alone
This will be equivalent to vanquishing all foes.

Where would I possibly find enough leather
With which to cover the surface of the earth?
But (wearing) leather just on the soles of my shoes
Is equivalent to covering the earth with it.

Likewise it is not possible for me
To restrain the external course of things;
But should I restrain this mind of mine
What would be the need to restrain all else?”
― Śāntideva

How Very,Very true.
 
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