codependency scripture alone gives an inadequate answer

[Daniel_Marsh]

Lets say a person goes to her pastor for help concerning an addict or alcoholic in her family. You can bet the Pastors advice will likely feed and support her unhealthy practice of codependecy. It is my experience that the system of Bible Alone simply does not work in addressing codependecy.

I would like to see my protestant brothern prove me wrong.

Any books on codepnedency will not truly use a bible alone approach but, will use an interdisplinary approach to this problem thus showing that bible alone does not work in addressing this life situation.

 

[puzzleannie]

Lets say a person goes to her pastor for help concerning an addict or alcoholic in her family. You can bet the Pastors advice will likely feed and support her unhealthy practice of codependecy. It is my experience that the system of Bible Alone simply does not work in addressing codependecy. .

you can’t make any bet at all what any given pastor would advise in any given pastoral situation.

no reading the bible alone is not therapy for any addiction, mental illness or physical illness, but who said it is?

 

[ralphinal]

While studying psychology as an undergrad, I ran into the mentality, especially amongst fundamentalist, that if you take someone with an issue, say alcoholism, teach them about Jesus, give them the Bible, and stay with them until they are saved, they will never touch the stuff again. That may work for a few, but it seems to be a dangerous gamble. I’ve been told before that all phychologists and psychiatrists are doing the work of the anti-Christ by leading people away from God. The mentality is there, maybe not as great a percentage as Daniel seems to state, but it is there.

 

[Lamb_Serenade]

Lets say a person goes to her pastor for help concerning an addict or alcoholic in her family. You can bet the Pastors advice will likely feed and support her unhealthy practice of codependecy. It is my experience that the system of Bible Alone simply does not work in addressing codependecy.

I would like to see my protestant brothern prove me wrong.

Any books on codepnedency will not truly use a bible alone approach but, will use an interdisplinary approach to this problem thus showing that bible alone does not work in addressing this life situation.

I would like to hear your ideas about what is a good way for an addict and / the spouse or SO of an addict to deal with the addicted person. I’m not being facetious here, it just sounds like you don’t get in line with AA or the 12 step programs, and I would like to know what you think is a good approach for the addict and family to take.

I want to understand fully your post. Is it a dispute to a biblical approach like 12 step programs, or is a different approach altogether?

I don’t want to weigh in here until I know the intent of your post, because underneath it seems you have a message here. It also feels like this thread is in the wrong forum. I might be missing something.

 

[sandusky]

Daniel Marsh

Lets say a person goes to her pastor for help concerning an addict or alcoholic in her family. You can bet the Pastors advice will likely feed and support her unhealthy practice of codependecy. It is my experience that the system of Bible Alone simply does not work in addressing codependecy.

I would like to see my protestant brothern prove me wrong.

Any books on codepnedency will not truly use a bible alone approach but, will use an interdisplinary approach to this problem thus showing that bible alone does not work in addressing this life situation.

ralphinal

While studying psychology as an undergrad, I ran into the mentality, especially amongst fundamentalist, that if you take someone with an issue, say alcoholism, teach them about Jesus, give them the Bible, and stay with them until they are saved, they will never touch the stuff again. That may work for a few, but it seems to be a dangerous gamble. I’ve been told before that all phychologists and psychiatrists are doing the work of the anti-Christ by leading people away from God. The mentality is there, maybe not as great a percentage as Daniel seems to state, but it is there.

Scripture alone is also inadequate in telling one how to change the spark plugs in his ride, and the oil, and the windshield wiper fluid.

Have either of you heard of sin? Or, are you really secularists, dressed in religious clothing?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Debbie, very few people among strict bible alone see the 12 step program as a “biblical approach”.

12 STEPS TO DESTRUCTION: Codependency/Recovery Heresies by Martin & Deidre Bobgan includes essential information for Christians about codependency/recovery teachings, Alcoholics Anonymous, Twelve-Step groups, and addiction treatment programs. The book examines such teachings and groups from a biblical, historical, and research perspective.

psychoheresy-aware.org/12stepbk.html

rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/codep/codepen1.htm

google.com/search?hl=en&q=12+steps+unbiblical

psychoheresy-aware.org/aa&bib82.html

The first step to recovery for the family member who is codependent is simply divorce themselves from the situation and let the addicted person fail at life, come to the understanding that they need help, until their ship has sunk and they want to grab a life perserver all you do will simply aid them in their disease and in their sin. If it is neccessary for that person to live homeless, then so be it. If the adict is physically abusive, call the police and have him arrested. When they want the life perserver, DON’T be the life saver, let professionals at AA, Alcholics for Christ, or Alcholics Victorious deal with them. You are only responsible for your part in supporting their disease. If your brother was bleeding, would you cut him deeper or would you put pressure on the wound and call 911? Any action you take that prolongs his bleeding, drinking is NOT helpping.

All of the above boils down to Set Boundries, identify engergy vampires and engergy zapping behaviors. See Herny Clouds books.

google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Henry+Cloud+setting+boundaries&spell=1

Second, get away from a Bible Believing church that views psychology as being of the Devil. Look for biblical churches that have realistic counseling programs and support at least Alcholics for Christ.

Third, read all you can find on the subject, even that published by “New Agers”.

Fourth, go to secular counseling that specializes in drug and alcohol adiction.

Fifth, write out your boundries with each person involved. Identifly the ring master of the codependents and concentrate on getting that person healthy. Get them involved in group counseling. Keep repeating the truth to them. “We must stop letting __________ hurt us by…” “We need to stop supporting his habbit…” “Let him fall on his face, he is a big boy…” “Who is going to take care of him after you die? NOT ME”

Sixth, Just say NO. I know a man, who lives in animal **** and urin. He keeps animals in the house all the time and lets them go everywhere. The cat uses the bath tub for a litter box. His water bill for six months is five dollars. People keep filing complaints with the police department and animal control, but they will not act. Calling the News, does not work because they get leds like this all the time. They want someone who has 40 or more animals in their home. Untill, those who are his supporters stop making his life easy – they pay his bills, supply food and alcohol – he will not hit rock bottom. This man does not care about anyone, but himself.

Seventh, if the drunk shows up at your door, don’t open it. Call the police and have him removed.

Study proverbs to see what it says about a fool, because frankly often that is exactly who you are dealing with.

Basically, you need to learn to love yourself, take care of yourself psychologically, be and stay healthy before you can help others. Part of the being healthy is staying away from the source of sickness, the fool.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Scripture alone is also inadequate in telling one how to change the spark plugs in his ride, and the oil, and the windshield wiper fluid.

Have either of you heard of sin? Or, are you really secularists, dressed in religious clothing?

Hi Debbie, this is exactly why I put it in the non-catholic fourm.

The thinking that drunkness is just a sin and does not have a disease component needs to be confronted.

Yes, I agree Sandusky that drunkness is SIN. But, there is also other components that need to be addressed which are not dealt with in biblical churches. Frankly, I view the drunk as playing the part of the Fool in Proverbs.

Fool-Proofing Your Life: An Honorable Way to Deal with the Impossible People in Your Life By: Jan Silvious

Don’t Let Jerks Get The Best Of You Advice For Dealing With Difficult People by Paul Meier

Often, by following the advice of the biblical pastor all you are doing is enabling the fools behavior.

Today, a good pastor who consels adicts, needs a degee in biblical whatever, psychology and some medical training.

brightonhospital.org/Treatment-Programs/Clergy-Recovery-Program/

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I think we should look at the 12 steps to determine is they are in fact “biblical”.

The Twelve Steps of Al-Anon

Study of these Steps is essential to progress in the Al-Anon program. The principles they embody are universal, applicable to everyone, whatever his personal creed. In Al-Anon, we strive for an ever-deeper understanding of these steps, and pray for the wisdom to apply them to our lives.

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol?that our lives had become unmanageable.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Romans 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

John 3:16 (King James Version)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Matthew 5:23-24

"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Mark 1:5
The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The English here does not do justice to the Greek, which is aorist. This means the action of becoming a new creature starts at some point and CONTINUES, the action of being a new creature is not past tense, nor complete, it is ON GOING.

2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

2 Samuel 21:3
David asked the Gibeonites, “What shall I do for you? How shall I make amends so that you will bless the LORD’s inheritance?”

Job 20:10
His children must make amends to the poor; his own hands must give back his wealth.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall **make amends **for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Psa 119

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Matthew 28

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

al-anon-co.org/12_step.html

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The 12-Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous have been matched to Christian biblical citations. These are;

1.We admitted we were powerless over our addictions and compulsive behavior. That our lives had become unmanageable.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. Romans 7:18

2.Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:1-3

3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

I urge you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. Romans 12:1

4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Let us examine and probe our ways, and let us return to the Lord. Lamentations 3:40

5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.

Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. James 5:16a

6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you. James 4:10

7.Humbly asked Him to remove all our shortcomings.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I John 1:9

8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

And just as you want men to treat you, treat them in the same way. Luke 6:31

9.Made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

If, therefore, you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Matthew 5:23-24

10.Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

Therefore, let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. I Corinthians 10:12

11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and power to carry that out.

Let the Word of Christ richly dwell in you. Colossians 3:16a

12.Having had a spiritual experience as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and practice these principles in all our affairs.

Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to yourselves, lest you too be tempted. Galatians 6:1

           12 Steps for Christian Living: Growth in a New of Living

by Vernon J. Bittner
recoveryissexy.com/twelve-steps-and-the-bible/

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

In short, there is an issue of Sin and that is where the Bible and Church comes in. But there are other issues both psychological and medical involved and that is where sources outside the bible comes in to manage the disease. Often God does not heal our physical diseases, including adiction and alcohol. I think he allows us to struggle, so that we seek wisdom and rely on him.

2 Corinthians 12:9 (New International Version)

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

This verse is known by every alcoholic, what is often missed is the fact that Paul is telling Tim to use a medical means to deal with his aliment.

 

[sandusky]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Debbie, this is exactly why I put it in the non-catholic fourm.

The thinking that drunkness is just a sin and does not have a disease component needs to be confronted.

And what disease component would that be, Daniel?
Daniel Marsh:

Yes, I agree Sandusky that drunkness is SIN. But, there is also other components that need to be addressed which are not dealt with in biblical churches. Frankly, I view the drunk as playing the part of the Fool in Proverbs.

That’s an understatement; what are the “other components” you think are at play in the fool?
Daniel Marsh:

Often, by following the advice of the biblical pastor all you are doing is enabling the fools behavior.

That’s a secular view, Daniel; the fool does not require enabling to continue in his foolish ways; it’s the desire of his heart to continue in them.
Daniel Marsh:

Today, a good pastor who consels adicts, needs a degee in biblical whatever, psychology and some medical training.

That’s your opinion, but local AA chapters are run by people who generally have none of the degrees you’ve mentioned above, but are themselves ex-drunks, or ex-addicts.

Those programs, for the most part, do a good job; but all they are doing is altering behavior; what needs to be done is radical surgery, the kind in which God replaces the heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

One may stop drinking, or stop taking drugs because of those programs; however, he or she is still dead in sin.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

And what disease component would that be, Daniel?

That’s an understatement; what are the “other components” you think are at play in the fool?

In reference to the adict, chemical depency is just one medical component that is involved. Also, liver damage, and other health problems can come into play.

And, frankly many people come to Christ through the 12 steps program.

That’s a secular view, Daniel; the fool does not require enabling to continue in his foolish ways; it’s the desire of his heart to continue in them.

And, he can NOT act out his ways unless someone allows him to interact with them, thus enabling. Part of enabling is also, supplying him with booze, food, roof over head, etc., Paul plainly said, you don’t work you don’t eat. But, those that enable allow him to eat and drink by supplying him, thus enabling and contradicting scripture.

That’s your opinion, but local AA chapters are run by people who generally have none of the degrees you’ve mentioned above, but are themselves ex-drunks, or ex-addicts.

Brighton Chapel Group
7:30 pm Open AA
Brighton Hospital
12581 E. Grand River
Brighton, MI

No it is my experience, there are many AA and Alnon groups lead by professionals with members who are dealing with the behavior. I can only surmise a working ignorance of such programs by you.

Those programs, for the most part, do a good job; but all they are doing is altering behavior; what needs to be done is radical surgery, the kind in which God replaces the heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

Eph 2:10 goes beyond conversion into santification. I have seen AA help people grow in the Lord.

One may stop drinking, or stop taking drugs because of those programs; however, he or she is still dead in sin.

Again, it is my experience that many of “those people” come to Christ and now worship God.

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I can not change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference

Living one day at a time.
Enjoying one moment at a time.
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking as He did this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it.
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His will

That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy
With Him forever in the next.
Amen

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

THE TWELVE STEPS
THEIR BIBLICAL COMPARISONS

1. WE ADMITTED WE WERE POWERLESS OVER OUR SEPARATION FROM GOD, THAT OUR LIVES HAD BECOME UNMANAGEABLE.
   “I know nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.”

Romans 7:18

1. CAME TO BELIEVE THAT A POWER GREATER THAN OURSELVES COULD RESTORE US TO SANITY.
   “For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.”

Philippians 2: 13

1. MADE A DECISION TO TURN OUR WILL AND OUR LIVES OVER TO THE CARE OF GOD AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM.
   “Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God – which is your spiritual worship.”

Romans 12: 1

1. MADE A SEARCHING AND FEARLESS MORAL INVENTORY OF OURSELVES.
   “Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord.”

Lamentations 3:40

1. ADMITTED TO GOD, TO OURSELVES, AND TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THE EXACT NATURE OF OUR WRONGS.
   “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.”

James 5:16

1. WERE ENTIRELY READY TO HAVE GOD REMOVE ALL THESE DEFECTS OF CHARACTER.
   “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up.”

James 4:10

7.HUMBLY ASKED HIM TO REMOVE OUR SHORT COMINGS. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

1 John 1:9

1. MADE A LIST OF ALL PERSONS WE HAD HARMED AND BECAME WILLING TO MAKE AMENDS TO THEM ALL.
   “Do to others as you would have them do to you.”

Luke 6:31

1. MADE DIRECT AMENDS TO SUCH PEOPLE WHENEVER POSSIBLE, EXCEPT WHEN TO DO SO WOULD INJURE THEM OR OTHERS.
   “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you; leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”

Matthew5:23-24

1. CONTINUED TO TAKE PERSONAL INVENTORY AND, WHEN WE WERE WRONG, PROMPTLY ADMITTED IT.
   “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall.”

1 Corinthians 10:12

1. SOUGHT THROUGH PRAYER & MEDITATION TO IMPROVE OUR CONSCIOUS CONTACT WITH GOD AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM, PRAYING ONLY FOR KNOWLEDGE OF HIS WILL FOR US AND THE POWER TO CARRY THAT OUT.
   “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly.”

Colossians 3:16a

1. HAVING HAD A SPIRITUAL AWAKENING AS THE RESULT OF THESE STEPS, WE TRIED TO CARRY THIS MESSAGE TO OTHERS, AND TO PRACTICE THESE PRINCIPLES IN ALL OUR AFFAIRS.

“Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.”

Galatians 6: 1

ADDICTIONS VICTORIOUS
addictionsvictorious.org/

Alcoholics Victorious Creed: I realize that I cannot overcome my addiction by myself. I believe that the power of Jesus Christ is available to help me. I believe that through my acceptance of Him as my Savior, I am a new person. Because the presence of God is manifested through continued prayer, I will set aside two periods every day, morning and evening, for communion with my Heavenly father. I realize my need for daily Bible reading and use it as a guide for my daily living. I recognize my need of Christian fellowship and will, therefore, have fellowship with Christians through the church of my choice. I know that in order to be victorious, I must keep active in the service of Christ and His Church and I will help others to victory. I do not partake of any beverage containing alcohol I know it is the first drink that does the harm. Therefore, “I do not drink.” I can be victorious because I know that God’s strength is sufficient to supply all my needs.

riverwalkbaptist.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=9200&PID=480094

alcoholicsforchrist.com/home.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The key point, those churches that deal with the spiritual, physical and psychological aspects of this disease are more successful than many bible alone groups. If one does some research they will find that many pastors are addicted themselves.

30-Day Clergy Recovery Program
brightonhospital.org/Treatment-Programs/Clergy-Recovery-Program/

I have heard on wmuz, that as high as 40 percent of pastors in Bible Only churches have admitted a problem with alcohol or drug addiction.

I would agree, that when one repents they become a new creature. But, the English does not bring out the Greek aorist, which means that the process of becoming a new creature only STARTS at conversion and is not completed – it is an ongoing process.

That ongoing process is called sanctification

alcoholism.about.com/od/christ/Christian_Recovery_Resources.htm

google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=sanctification+ongoing+process+becoming+like+Christ&spell=1

AA and Alnon are not “strickly secular” they simply start working with a person where they are in their spiritual journey.

 

[sandusky]

Daniel Marsh:

In reference to the adict, chemical depency is just one medical component that is involved. Also, liver damage, and other health problems can come into play.

Chemical dependency is brought about by sinful lusts, Daniel; or, do you believe that one is born with a “drunk” gene, or an “addict” gene?

A knowledgeable pastor will urge a drunk, or an addict seeking counseling to see a medical doctor as well; nevertheless, the problem is spiritual.
Daniel Marsh:

And, frankly many people come to Christ through the 12 steps program.

How many?
Daniel Marsh:

And, he can NOT act out his ways unless someone allows him to interact with them, thus enabling. Part of enabling is also, supplying him with booze, food, roof over head, etc., Paul plainly said, you don’t work you don’t eat. But, those that enable allow him to eat and drink by supplying him, thus enabling and contradicting scripture.

Proverbs 26:11Like a dog that returns to its vomit Is a fool who repeats his folly.The fool loves his sin, Daniel.
Daniel Marsh:

No it is my experience, there are many AA and Alnon groups lead by professionals with members who are dealing with the behavior. I can only surmise a working ignorance of such programs by you.

That’s an ignorant assumption.
Daniel Marsh:

Eph 2:10 goes beyond conversion into santification. I have seen AA help people grow in the Lord.

Only those chapters that are Christian-based; most ex-drunks, and ex-addicts rely on God
“as they define Him.” Go to a meeting.
Daniel Marsh:

Again, it is my experience that many of “those people” come to Christ and now worship God.

Again, only in those chapters that are Christian-based; I don’t have exact statistics, however, the number of Christian-based chapters are in the minority, and they meet separately.

The biblical God is not discussed, except in Christian-based chapters.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Chemical dependency is brought about by sinful lusts, Daniel; or, do you believe that one is born with a “drunk” gene, or an “addict” gene?

No chemical dependency is the result of exposing oneself to the drug. And, no I don’t think there is an addict gene.

A knowledgeable pastor will urge a drunk, or an addict seeking counseling to see a medical doctor as well; nevertheless, the problem is spiritual.

At which point he ceases being “bible alone” in his approach.

Only those chapters that are Christian-based; most ex-drunks, and ex-addicts rely on God
“as they define Him.” Go to a meeting.

I attend an non-christian based group, and many there have come to christ. Coming to a knowledge of Christ in such meetings may very well take years, but it does happen.

The biblical God is not discussed, except in Christian-based chapters.

Not true. I attend a non-christian group and we discuss Jesus often.

 

[sandusky]

Daniel Marsh:

No chemical dependency is the result of exposing oneself to the drug. And, no I don’t think there is an addict gene.

Good.
Daniel Marsh:

At which point he ceases being “bible alone” in his approach.

That’s silly.
Daniel Marsh:

Not true. I attend a non-christian group and we discuss Jesus often.

That’s very unusual.

 

[ralphinal]

I have back problems. I am under a doctor’s care. If I take a Bible-only approach, I would stop seeing my doctor, and trust only in God. Every now and then you hear about a child who dies because the parents refuse medical care due to religious beliefs. Personally, I think that God gave us the ability to develop medicine to use along with prayer.

I think that this is the point that Danial is trying to make. In order to beat an addiciton, most people need more than a Bible only approach. I do think that the most succesful programs couple a spiritual with a physical, though.

True, the Bible does not tell me how to change my spark plugs. But, it tells me to trust in God for all my needs. Should I pray that they get changed or should I take it to a garage?

 

[sandusky]

ralphinal:

I have back problems. I am under a doctor’s care. If I take a Bible-only approach, I would stop seeing my doctor, and trust only in God. Every now and then you hear about a child who dies because the parents refuse medical care due to religious beliefs. Personally, I think that God gave us the ability to develop medicine to use along with prayer.

I don’t think God did that; I’m certain He did.

Al, do some reading here, and perhaps you’ll learn something.

ralphinal:

I think that this is the point that Danial is trying to make. In order to beat an addiciton, most people need more than a Bible only approach. I do think that the most succesful programs couple a spiritual with a physical, though.

That’s true, people don’t need to be regenerate to kick an addiction.

ralphinal:

True, the Bible does not tell me how to change my spark plugs. But, it tells me to trust in God for all my needs. Should I pray that they get changed or should I take it to a garage?

My point exactly, Al; you’re catching on.