Codex Vaticanus & John Lennox

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Hi All,

I am currently reading John Lennox’s book “Gunning for God. Why the new atheists are missing the target” and in passing the author mentions that the Vatican forbade people from studying the Codex Vaticanus for 400 years since it was cataloged by the Vatican Library in 1475… can any one offer some insight into the veracity of this statement?

Thanks,

Alex
 
I’m not a historian, but from my own casual research…

I’ve found that the early church prior to the invention of the printing press, was VERY concerned with forgeries and with people being misled by shotty translations.

Secondly, prior to the early 5th century (400s) there was dispute amongst the Bishops of the church what SHOULD BE considered scriptural and what should not. The Councils of Carthage and Hippo helped to pin down which books about Jesus should be included in the Christian canon.

So “bibles” prior to this time were not “canonical” or “official”

The Codex Vaticanus (notice it isn’t called a bible, but a ‘codex’) which dates to around this time 325–350 falls into this timeframe of when the Church was getting serious about creating a standard.

Thirdly, this is during a time when the cost of a book often cost an entire man’s wages for a whole year. Or roughly equilavent of about $36,000 today. This is because they were hand written by professional scribes and could take a year to produce.

What this meant is that the market conditions were perfect for forgeries and bad knock-offs. There are also some historians who allege that Moors in and around present day Spain, at times seeded Christian bibles with Islamic texts. Further mudding the waters.

So a lot was going on during this time period between roughly 300-1000 AD.

But overall, the Church never kept people from reading scripture… however it DID keep people from reading unofficial manuscripts, codexes, or books which were not approved.

The best way the church had at its diposal to make sure a forgery didn’t end up in someone’s hands was to burn them. paper shredders didn’t exist and if they simply threw it away, chances are someone might pick it up and knowingly or unknowingly sell it or spread it around.

Remember this is the SAME church which spent considerable money to furnish each church with at least one copy. All anyone had to do to read the bible (if they were literate) was to stop by the church and read the bible. Sadly… in a lot of cases, due to their cost… the churches often chained their bibles to a podium, so they couldn’t be stolen.

The reason I mention all these things is that you’ll hear these very facts spun in various ways to make it appear as if the church outlawed knowledge of the bible. For instance… people will take the fact that bibles were chained to podiums to state that the church didn’t want people to read the bible. Or that the church burned bibles when the truth is that it burned forgeries and mistranslations.

The one thing that I will say that in my research seems to give the Church a black eye by today’s standards, is that for a time… the Church was hostile to translating the bible into local languages because it insisted on keeping the bible in Latin. What appears to be a tactic to block people from reading it, was in fact the Church’s attempt at being sensitive to the authenticity and trying to reduce misunderstandings created when things are translated from 1 language to another.
The more I learn about differences between Greek, Latin, Spanish, and English… the more I see the wisdom in their earlier strategy.

But my point simply is… be well versed in history and look at things from multiple angles before believing someone’s assertion. Things are often more complicated then people portray them or even know.
 
Thanks for that … the problem though is that the author seems to imply that once the Vatican Library deemed the Codex to be valuable and worth percerving (hence kept in the library) they also decided no one ought to study it … I have seen several of Lennox’s debates and he seems to be very level headed so I wouldn’t categorise him as a catholic basher or anything like that … which makes me wonder what information he came accross to make that assessment?
 
Thanks for that … the problem though is that the author seems to imply that once the Vatican Library deemed the Codex to be valuable and worth percerving (hence kept in the library) they also decided no one ought to study it … I have seen several of Lennox’s debates and he seems to be very level headed so I wouldn’t categorise him as a catholic basher or anything like that … which makes me wonder what information he came accross to make that assessment?
How about a quote of what Lennox actually said and his source?

You know, they collected a lot of old copies of Scripture and when it was collected, there’s no reason to think they knew what it was exactly or how old. They didn’t just let people go rooting around in the archives, even if someone had wanted to. My understanding was, it took a few hundred years before anyone got around to completely cataloging or translating it. That it wasn’t done doesn’t mean there was some sort of big deal about it not being done.
 
The important consideration here seems to be that the Vatican Library was somewhat open to visiting scholars, as were most Roman libraries. But the Vatican Secret Archives (translation: the papal private archives) were closed to visiting scholars and open only to employees and the Pope. But then, most private family archives, government archives, religious archives, and business archives were also open only to employees and whoever owned it. (The same goes for “rare books collections”, which are not as open as libraries, and sometimes for “closed stack libraries”.)

Researchers are sometimes welcome today, depending on what kind of archive there is, but generally operate under security restrictions and can only see certain approved things. Visitors aren’t generally allowed to get back in the stacks. There are regulations on bags (generally kept out of reach under the table), pencils (one), paper (a few sheets), pens (usually not allowed lest someone carelessly mark archive materials), phones and cameras (sometimes encouraged, sometimes not), and so forth.

(If you go to your local university archives today, you will find that a good chunk of what they have is not to be studied even by archives employees, for the next 50 or 100 years, thanks to the terms of donations. Other valuables may be stored there as well; my university’s archives also held the ‘wine cellar’ of university-owned distinguished bottles, university antique furniture, and so forth.)

Your library was your “living room”. Your archives were your safe and filing cabinets in your office, containing private correspondence and other private valuables. The manuscript was being stored as a valuable, not being studied as a library book.

However, at various times, the Vatican Archivists did go to the trouble of making and sending out complete transcripts of the Codex Vaticanus. This isn’t quite as satisfactory as asking an archives to scan a manuscript or photocopy it, as we would today. Even today, we would probably much prefer to examine a manuscript in the flesh, if we were scholars. But given the way that scholars of that day routinely stole manuscripts from libraries (and archives, if anybody were stupid enough to let them in without keeping a constant eye on them) and sold stolen manuscripts to the highest bidder, or kept them for themselves, it was a pretty reasonable security procedure.

“Distinguished archeologists, historians, and Biblical and patristic scholars who constantly ripped off monasteries and churches and handled stolen goods” would be a very large Wikipedia entry, alas.

The primary job of an archivist is to keep materials safe, secure from thieves and other dangers, and in good condition. Cataloging materials comes next. Helping researchers that don’t belong to your institution comes last, no matter how friendly and open to researchers that an archives may be.
 
Anyway… the Vatican Archives seems to have known from the start that it was an old and important Greek text of the Bible.

What they didn’t know was that parts of it were of a significantly different Greek manuscript tradition. Nobody in Europe knew that, until the other Greek manuscripts had been studied here in the West.
 
How about a quote of what Lennox actually said and his source?

You know, they collected a lot of old copies of Scripture and when it was collected, there’s no reason to think they knew what it was exactly or how old. They didn’t just let people go rooting around in the archives, even if someone had wanted to. My understanding was, it took a few hundred years before anyone got around to completely cataloging or translating it. That it wasn’t done doesn’t mean there was some sort of big deal about it not being done.
The quote is
The earliest surviving manuscripts containing all the books of the New Testament were written around AD325-350. (Incidentally, it was in AD 325 that the Council of Nicea decreed that the Bible could be freely copied.) The most important of these manuscripts are the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus, which are called unical manuscripts because they are written in Greek capital letters. The Codex Vaticanus was catalogued by the Vatican Library (hence its name) in 1475; but, for 400 years after that, scholars were forbidden to study it - rather odd, in light of the original decision by the Council of Nicea!
 
The quote is

The earliest surviving manuscripts containing all the books of the New Testament were written around AD325-350. (Incidentally, it was in AD 325 that the Council of Nicea decreed that the Bible could be freely copied.) The most important of these manuscripts are the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus, which are called unical manuscripts because they are written in Greek capital letters. The Codex Vaticanus was catalogued by the Vatican Library (hence its name) in 1475; but, for 400 years after that, scholars were forbidden to study it - rather odd, in light of the original decision by the Council of Nicea!
That’s it? He doesn’t have a source? So he just said so? We don’t have any way to know what he says is correct. I doubt it is.

We do know his scholarship is pretty sloppy as he is just wrong about what’s in bold. The *Vaticanus *doesn’t have all the books of the NT Canon. This is from Wikipedia:
The extant New Testament of the Vaticanus contains the Gospels, Acts, the General Epistles, the Pauline Epistles, and the Epistle to the Hebrews (up to Hebrews 9:14, καθαριει); it is lacking 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and Revelation. These missing leaves were supplemented by a 15th century minuscule hand (folios 760–768) and are catalogued separately as the minuscule Codex 1957.[3] Possibly some apocryphal books from the New Testament were included at the end (as in codices Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus),[3] as it is also possible that Revelation was not included.[11][12]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

Also, where is the quote from Nicea about freely copying the Canon and what would it have to do with the Vatican restricting access to an ancient document? *What scholars were forbidden? By whom? *
 
Hi Julia,

That is why I decided to post the query here. The chapter where this extract was taken from deals with the author defending the veracity of the NT (in particular the Gospels) as historical documents to prove Jesus rose from the dead (against atheistic claims that say otherwise). Overall he does a great job of defending the Christian faith but this is the second time in his book I see this sort of hit and run tactic used against Catholicism where he does not provide any information to back his claim. He makes slight distinctions between “true Christianity” & Catholic belief … sufficient to make a simple reader doubt. At the same time when he brings the Inquisition into play he does a good job of explaining it to the reader (as far as the number of people executed etc.)

I am trying to figure out where he stands in the Christian spectrum and it is hard to determine, at times he is sympathetic with the RC and others bias???
 
I am trying to figure out where he stands in the Christian spectrum and it is hard to determine, at times he is sympathetic with the RC and others bias???
All I know is that there is a huge segment of people calling themselves “Christians” who spend a lot of time attacking the Church. They are all over the Internet. There are ugly awful sites where the most outrageous lies are told and people go around repeating and believing them.

Any time a writer purports to be an expert or scholar and has nothing to back up his claims, I just write him off. If it’s important to you, write him a letter through his publisher or post comments on Amazon.

He’s just another basher as far as I can see.
 
alexaustralia;8461476] Hi All,
I am currently reading John Lennox’s book “Gunning for God. Why the new atheists are missing the target” and in passing the author mentions that the Vatican forbade people from studying the Codex Vaticanus for 400 years since it was cataloged by the Vatican Library in 1475… can any one offer some insight into the veracity of this statement?
Thanks, Alex
Hi Alex, who was it in the Church at about the time of the invention of the printing press who said, “Destroy the printing press, or it will destroy the Church” ??

Protector.
 
Hi Alex, who was it in the Church at about the time of the invention of the printing press who said, “Destroy the printing press, or it will destroy the Church” ??

Protector.
The Archdeacon Claude Frollo in Victor Hugo’s 1831 novel The Hunchback of Notre Dame: “Ceci tuera cela”, “This will kill that.” :cool: It means that the arrival of the printing press would mark the end of the age of architecture, here symbolized by the church building, the Notre-Dame de Paris. For Hugo, while heretofore architecture was prominent and enjoyed considerable freedom in contrast to the written word, the printing press is making it easier to express one’s ideas on paper. The period thus marks the last flowering of architecture as a great artistic form.
 
Hi Alex, who was it in the Church at about the time of the invention of the printing press who said, “Destroy the printing press, or it will destroy the Church” ??

Protector.
Don’t mind getting the non-catholic perspective on the subject … as long as it is kept on the topic at hand (The Codex and why (if at all true) was it kept from being studied).

You just added another hit and run which for now don’t want to get into… I don’t want to broaden this thread to “did the catholic church forbade the reading of the bible” I know I will get anti-catholic gibberish posted in no time…

Having said this if you have anything to add on the main topic please do so

Cheers,

Alex
 
Hi All,

I am currently reading John Lennox’s book “Gunning for God. Why the new atheists are missing the target” and in passing the author mentions that the Vatican forbade people from studying the Codex Vaticanus for 400 years since it was cataloged by the Vatican Library in 1475… can any one offer some insight into the veracity of this statement?

Thanks,

Alex
In one sense, this is correct. For a long period of time the librarians jealously guarded the manuscript and as a consequence, was mostly inaccesible to hordes of scholars until the 19th century save apparently for a few exceptions, so that while Codex Vaticanus became more and more famous, only a select few had actually seen it.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Until recently the privilege of consulting this ancient manuscript quite freely and fully was not granted to all who sought it. The material condition of the Vatican Codex is better, generally speaking, than that of its contemporaries; it is foreseen, however, that within a century it will have fallen to pieces unless an efficacious remedy, which is being earnestly sought for, shall be discovered.

From here:

For many years Codex Vaticanus was highly esteemed by scholars who knew next to nothing about it, besides its evident antiquity. Johann Bengel in his Gnomon (see Bengel 1742) makes the following remark concerning it: “The number of witnesses who support each reading of every passage ought to be carefully examined: and to that end, in so doing, we should separate those codices … which are known to have been carefully collated, as, for instance, the Alexandrine, from those which are not known to have been carefully collated, or which are known to have been carelessly collated, as for instance the Vatican MS., which otherwise would be almost without an equal.” (Fausset’s translation, vol the Vatican MS., which otherwise would be almost without an equal." (Fausset’s translation, vol. 1, pp. 15-16). It was jealously guarded by the librarians of the Vatican, and practically inaccessible to competent scholars for most of the nineteenth century (see remarks under Mai 1857), during which its reputation was magnified by the mystique surrounding it. When at last its text was fully revealed, in many places seconded by the recently discovered Codex Sinaiticus, the stage was set for the influential text of Tischendorf 1869 and the even more important edition of Westcott and Hort 1881.

From here:

Collations:

B has been published several times, including several recent photographic editions (the earliest from 1904-1907; full colour editions were published starting in 1968). It is important to note that the early editions are not reliable. Tischendorf, of course, listed the readings of the manuscript, but this was based on a most cursory examination; the Vatican authorities went to extraordinary lengths to keep him from examining Vaticanus. Others who wished to study it, such as Tregelles, were denied even the right to see it. The first edition to be based on actual complete examination of the manuscript was done by Cardinal Mai (4 volumes; a 1 volume edition came later) – but this was one of the most incompetently executed editions of all time. Not only is the number of errors extraordinarily high, but no attention is paid to readings of the first hand versus correctors, and there is no detailed examination of the manuscript’s characteristics. Despite its advantages, it is actually less reliable than Tischendorf, and of course far inferior to recent editions. Philipp Buttmann produced a New Testament edition based largely on B, but he had B’s text via Mai, which he seemingly didn’t trust very much, so the resulting edition isn’t much like B or anything else (except 2427, which apparently was copied from it).
 
And from our beloved Wikipedia:

In the 16th century Western scholars became aware of the manuscript as a consequence of the correspondence between Erasmus and the prefects of the Vatican Library, successively Paulus Bombasius, and Juan Gin口s de Sep口lveda. In 1521, Bombasius was consulted by Erasmus as to whether the Codex Vaticanus contained the Comma Johanneum, and Bombasius supplied a transcript of 1 John 4:1-3 and 1 John 5:7-11 to show that it did not. Sep口lveda in 1533 cross-checked all places where Erasmus’s New Testament (the Textus Receptus) differed from the Vulgate, and supplied Erasmus with 365 readings where the Codex Vaticanus supported the latter, although the list of these 365 readings has been lost. Consequently, the Codex Vaticanus acquired the reputation of being an old Greek manuscript that agreed with the Vulgate rather than with the Textus Receptus. Not until much later would scholars realise it conformed to a text that differed from both the Vulgate and the Textus Receptus - a text that could also be found in other known early Greek manuscripts, such as the Codex Regius (L), housed in the French Royal Library (now Bibliotheque nationale de France). …]

Before the 19th century, no scholar was allowed to study or edit the Codex Vaticanus, and scholars did not ascribe any value to it; in fact it was suspected to have been interpolated by the Latin textual tradition. John Mill wrote in his Prolegomena (1707): “in Occidentalium gratiam a Latino scriba exaratum” (written by a Latin scribe for the western world). He did not believe there was value to having a collation for the manuscript. Wettstein would have liked to know the readings of the codex, but not because he thought that they could have been of any help to him for difficult textual decisions. According to him, this codex had no authority whatsoever (sed ut vel hoc constaret, Codicem nullus esse auctoris). …]

In 1809 Napoleon brought the manuscript as a victory trophy to Paris, but in 1815 it was returned to the Vatican Library. During that time, in Paris, German scholar Johann Leonhard Hug (1765-1846) saw it. Hug examined it, together with other worthy treasures of the Vatican, but he did not perceive the need of a new and full collation.

Cardinal Angelo Mai prepared the first typographical facsimile edition between 1828 and 1838, which did not appear until 1857, three years after his death, and which was considered unsatisfactory. …] In 1843 Tischendorf was permitted to make a facsimile of a few verses, in 1844 Eduard de Muralt saw it, and in 1845 S. P. Tregelles was allowed to observe several points which Muralt had overlooked. He often saw the Codex, but “it was under such restrictions that it was impossible to do more than examine particular readings.”

“They would not let me open it without searching my pockets, and depriving me of pen, ink, and paper; and at the same time two prelati kept me in constant conversation in Latin, and if I looked at a passage too long, they would snatch the book out of my hand”.

Tregelles left Rome after five months without accomplishing his object. During a large part of the 19th century, the authorities of the Vatican Library obstructed scholars who wished to study the codex in detail. Henry Alford in 1849 wrote: “It has never been published in facsimile (!) nor even thoroughly collated (!!).”Scrivener in 1861 commented:

“Codex Vaticanus 1209 is probably the oldest large vellum manuscript in existance, and is the glory of the great Vatican Library in Rome. To these legitimate sources of deep interest must be added the almost romantic curiosity which has been excited by the jealous watchfulness of its official guardians, with whom an honest zeal for its safe preservation seems to have now degenerated into a species of capricious wilfulness, and who have shewn a strange incapacity for making themselves the proper use of a treasure they scarcely permit others more than to gaze upon”. It (…) “is so jealously guarded by the Papal authorities that ordinary visitors see nothing of it but the red morocco binding”.

Thomas Law Montefiore (1862):

“The history of the Codex Vaticanus B, No. 1209, is the history in miniature of Romish jealousy and exclusiveness.”

Burgon was permitted to examine the codex for an hour and a half in 1860, consulting 16 different passages. Burgon was a defender of the Traditional Text and for him Codex Vaticanus, as well as codices Sinaiticus and Codex Bezae, were the most corrupt documents extant. He felt that each of these three codices “clearly exhibits a fabricated text 口 is the result of arbitrary and reckless recension.” The two most widely respected of these three codices, 口 and B, he likens to the “two false witnesses” of Matthew 26:60.​
 
alexaustralia;8468262]
Don’t mind getting the non-catholic perspective on the subject … as long as it is kept on the topic at hand (The Codex and why (if at all true) was it kept from being studied).
You just added another hit and run which for now don’t want to get into… I don’t want to broaden this thread to “did the catholic church forbade the reading of the bible” I know I will get anti-catholic gibberish posted in no time…
Having said this if you have anything to add on the main topic please do so
Cheers, Alex
Thank you Alex, your comments have been duly noted. BTW, definitely no “hit and run” with me Cobber, I’m here for the long term (that is unless I get banned).
Do hope that, it will not turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophesy.

However, keeping “on the topic at hand”, my outsider’s view (for what it’s worth) is that the Church was concerned that the printing press would subject all Church documents in general, and the Codex in particular to unwelcome scrutiny, and thereby the possibility of forgery creeping in, to the detriment of the Church. So, it is very likely a fact that the Church did, at least **restrict ** the Codex from being studied. Although, it may well have been suggested by her critics, that she had something to hide.

Protector.
 
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