Coercive miracles?

[Bradski]

The question isn’t whether knowledge is coercive, but whether you, knowing with certainty that God exists, would still deny Him? That would be the epitome of a lack of rationality.

Two thoughts: first of all, are you really saying that, if you had absolute and undeniable evidence of God’s existence, and knowledge that He is who we say He is… that you’d still consider denying His will? That’s just illogical.

I’m not sure that the poll has been worded to best represent the conundrum. Which was, if we are talking about a particular post on another thread, whether an incontrovertible miracle (stars rearranging themselves, multiple cases of limb regeneration – take your pick), would remove the requirement of faith. Faith is exercising your free will to believe in God. If you knew with absolute certainty that God existed, then you would have no choice but to believe and your free will would be nullified and you wouldn’t need faith. Just like I have no free will in believing that Obama is the President of the United States. I also don’t have faith that he has that position. I have absolute knowledge.

A couple of things on this. Firstly, if you asked any number of Christians whether God exists, they would say yes. They would be absolutely certain about it. Which would seem negate any free will they have in believing it and would therefore not require faith in any case. That’s not really an option. So what they really mean is that they have an unshakable faith that He exists, not absolute knowledge.

Consider your own demise and you find yourself in heaven. You would then have absolute knowledge that God exists and faith would not exist. To say you had faith in that scenario would be like saying that you had faith in Obama being President. So if you were given incontrovertible and absolute proof that God exists, then again, faith would not be required.

So to miracles. Which are often held by Christians as incontrovertible evidence that God does indeed exist. Constant referrals to events such as Fatima (and less known ones such as Zeitoun) are used to poke various atheists with the ‘How-Do-You-Explain-This’ stick. Which appears odd to me. If the Christian says that the miracle is undeniably true, then God undeniably exists and there is no requirement for faith. If the miracle is not undoubtedly true, then one still requires faith. So why all the stick-poking?

Any genuine miracle that is proved to be such is coercive by definition.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Any genuine miracle that is proved to be such is coercive by definition.

Very well said… but “coercive” in what respect? Of course it makes “faith” unnecessary, but it does not rob us of our most important freedom - namely: “to worship or not”? Tony keeps on rehashing his old “argument”, saying “to have incontrovertible evidence for God’s existence would rob us of the freedom to choose to believe if God exists or not.” No matter how many times it is shown to him that “beliefs are not under volitional control”, he keeps on bringing it up.

It was my “secret” hope to gain support against the “freedom to choose to believe” type of reasoning, and so far the result looks pretty good.

 

[icamhif]

Very well said… but “coercive” in what respect? Of course it makes “faith” unnecessary, but it does not rob us of our most important freedom - namely: “to worship or not”? Tony keeps on rehashing his old “argument”, saying “to have incontrovertible evidence for God’s existence would rob us of the freedom to choose to believe if God exists or not.” No matter how many times it is shown to him that “beliefs are not under volitional control”, he keeps on bringing it up.

It was my “secret” hope to gain support against the “freedom to choose to believe” type of reasoning, and so far the result looks pretty good.

What about people that in are in willful denial about the death of a loved one? Is that an example of “freedom to choose to not believe?”

 

[Bradski]

Very well said… but “coercive” in what respect? Of course it makes “faith” unnecessary, but it does not rob us of our most important freedom - namely: “to worship or not”?

Indeed. In fact, something that I hadn’t touched on, which is the same point I would make if someone said that it must have been God who created the universe and I agree to concede it for arguments sake: Which god?

If a miracle occurs then something powerful enough to have caused an unnatural event exists. Certainly ‘god-like’. But the Abrahamic God? Whether it was or wasn’t, I guess you wouldn’t have to worship Him. But I’d like to know what the outcome would likely be if I didn’t.

But then I’m sure He’d know I wasn’t doing it of my own free will (but only to avoid punishment), so I’d be in trouble in any case.

Doesn’t bode well for me. Here’s hoping that He doesn’t make Himself known until after I die…

 

[tonyrey]

What if I use my free will to surrender my free will to God so that I can only make good choices? Well, Ive tried it before and God doesnt respect my free will in this instance. Why?

It is impossible to surrender your free will! Either you have it or you don’t.

 

[tonyrey]

It is impossible to surrender your free will! Either you have it or you don’t.

“surrender” means you don’t make any effort - which is not something to be respected. It amounts to opting out of life. It was an atheist, Sartre, who pointed out that we have to be committed rather than passive if we are to achieve anything worthwhile. Even if we are mistaken we have to do what we believe is right.

 

[tonyrey]

Very well said… but “coercive” in what respect? Of course it makes “faith” unnecessary, but it does not rob us of our most important freedom - namely: “to worship or not”? Tony keeps on rehashing his old “argument”, saying “to have incontrovertible evidence for God’s existence would rob us of the freedom to choose to believe if God exists or not.” No matter how many times it is shown to him that “beliefs are not under volitional control”, he keeps on bringing it up.

It was my “secret” hope to gain support against the “freedom to choose to believe” type of reasoning, and so far the result looks pretty good.

If we didn’t choose what to believe we wouldn’t be responsible for anything we think, say or do. We would be biological computers incapable of independent reasoning. All our mental activity would be caused by events beyond our control and we would be impotent observers with no guarantee of ever discovering the truth. Do you enjoy being a slave?

 

[Bradski]

If we didn’t choose what to believe we wouldn’t be responsible for anything we think, say or do.

You choose what information to accept or reject. That results in belief. Your choosing what information to accept or reject makes you responible for what you think, say or do.

The information you choose to accept or reject does not have to be correct. The reasons why you choose to,accept or reject it do not have to be valid.

You CANNOT choose to believe. There is an order to this. Information: acceptance or rejection: belief.

If you choose to believe then you have skipped the stage of accepting or rejecting information. You choose to believe without considering it. If you consider it, then it forms your belief.

If you accept evidence for a miracle, then you have no choice but to believe it. You have no free will in the matter.

Tell us which miracles you believe, Tony.

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed. In fact, something that I hadn’t touched on, which is the same point I would make if someone said that it must have been God who created the universe and I agree to concede it for arguments sake: Which god?

You’re assuming there is no HCF!

If a miracle occurs then something powerful enough to have caused an unnatural event exists. Certainly ‘god-like’. But the Abrahamic God? Whether it was or wasn’t, I guess you wouldn’t have to worship Him. But I’d like to know what the outcome would likely be if I didn’t.

Still no HCF!

But then I’m sure He’d know I wasn’t doing it of my own free will (but only to avoid punishment), so I’d be in trouble in any case.

If you avoid punishment
and don’t have free will how can you possibly be in trouble? **

Nothing is our fault, Brad! We all go to heaven…:dancing:**

Doesn’t bode well for me. Here’s hoping that He doesn’t make Himself known until after I die…

It won’t make the slightest difference according to the mental slave hypothesis. We are liberated by not being free to choose what to believe… It seems very odd but the truth is often stranger than fiction… At least we don’t have to worry any more about injustice or inequality - or even slavery. What will be will be!

 

[tonyrey]

The OP is a false dilemma because it is simplistic. There are many types of knowledge which have no immediate effect on what we believe but overwhelming knowledge that God exists is certainly not in that category. We would be like children being constantly watched by their parents or teachers in case they do something wrong. People object to Big Brother because it infringes their right to privacy and freedom to live as they choose.

If we knew for certain the Creator of the universe is aware of all our thoughts and actions at every moment of the day and night we would try to do what we believe is right as far as we possibly could. We would be terrified not only of breaking the law but also of harming others in any way whatsoever because there would be no opportunity to avoid or conceal the truth. Our lives would be dominated by one outstanding fact - that nothing is secret and everything is known to God, not in the distant future but right here and now. Our conscience would certainly make cowards of us all! That is why we are given the precious power to think for ourselves independently and demonstrate what we are really worth - without being coerced by miracles.

 

[tonyrey]

You choose what information to accept or reject. That results in belief. Your choosing what information to accept or reject makes you responible for what you think, say or do.

The information you choose to accept or reject does not have to be correct. The reasons why you choose to,accept or reject it do not have to be valid.

You CANNOT choose to believe. There is an order to this. Information: acceptance or rejection: belief.

If you choose to believe then you have skipped the stage of accepting or rejecting information. You choose to believe without considering it. If you consider it, then it forms your belief.

If you accept evidence for a miracle, then you have no choice but to believe it. You have no free will in the matter.

Tell us which miracles you believe, Tony.

I forgot to answer your question, Brad. I believe it is a miracle that anything exists, that life exists, that we know the universe exists, that we can understand and control nature and ourselves, that we can distinguish good from evil, that we are capable of unselfish love and, of course, that we have been given evidence that God loves us.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

If we didn’t choose what to believe we wouldn’t be responsible for anything we think, say or do.

You keep bringing this up. What we DO is volitional, what we BELIEVE is not. You have the option to act on your belief or act differently. Poor frightened teenagers believe that masturbation is a mortal sin and God takes offense if they engage in some innocent fun to relieve their tension due to their red-hot libido and their pressing biological needs. Then the guilt phase kicks in… So don’t tell me that being aware of God’s prying eyes would change us into conformity with God’s requirements. Would not happen.

If we knew for certain the Creator of the universe is aware of all our thoughts and actions at every moment of the day and night we would try to do what we believe is right as far as we possibly could. We would be terrified not only of breaking the law but also of harming others in any way whatsoever because there would be no opportunity to avoid or conceal the truth. Our lives would be dominated by one outstanding fact - that nothing is secret and everything is known to God, not in the distant future but right here and now. Our conscience would certainly make cowards of us all! That is why we are given the precious power to think for ourselves independently and demonstrate what we are really worth - without being coerced by miracles.

You mean you DON’T believe that God knows and judges every thought of yours? How very strange.

 

[tonyrey]

If we didn’t choose what to believe we wouldn’t be responsible for anything we think, say or do.

The truth bears repetition.

What we DO is volitional, what we BELIEVE is not.

There is no reason to believe these mental activities are in different categories.

You have the option to act on your belief or act differently

.
You also have the option to change your beliefs if you are a reasonable person.
Otherwise you have a one-track mind which cannot distinguish truth from error.

Poor frightened teenagers believe that masturbation is a mortal sin and God takes offense if they engage in some innocent fun to relieve their tension due to their red-hot libido and their pressing biological needs. Then the guilt phase kicks in… So don’t tell me that being aware of God’s prying eyes would change us into conformity with God’s requirements. Would not happen.

The obsession with sex even manifests itself in a discussion about miracles! No wonder we are all regarded as naked apes dominated by our instincts and incapable of controlling our desires - and beliefs of course. Why are our conclusions exempt and excluded? It makes one wonder why a philosophy forum is regarded as an opportunity for a rational discussion… Or perhaps it isn’t!

If we knew for certain the Creator of the universe is aware of all our thoughts and actions at every moment of the day and night we would try to do what we believe is right as far as we possibly could. We would be terrified not only of breaking the law but also of harming others in any way whatsoever because there would be no opportunity to avoid or conceal the truth. Our lives would be dominated by one outstanding fact - that nothing is secret and everything is known to God, not in the distant future but right here and now. Our conscience would certainly make cowards of us all! That is why we are given the precious power to think for ourselves independently and demonstrate what we are really worth - without being coerced by miracles.

You mean you DON’T believe that God knows and judges every thought of yours? How very strange.

There is no need to include “judges” because our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment.

It is far stranger to believe we have been created by the blind Goddess who doesn’t know anything about Herself or anything else. Why stop half-way? Neither reason nor volition has any place in your scheme of things. It seems far more likely that no one knows anything and it is an infantile fantasy to claim one set of words is superior to another. The problem is that you don’t take your scepticism to its logical conclusion. Garbage in garbage out… It is also the most economical…

Follow Hume’s example. He gave up metaphysical speculation and played backgammon. Give up philosophy and concentrate on innocent fun…

 

[Bradski]

There are many types of knowledge which have no immediate effect on what we believe but overwhelming knowledge that God exists is certainly not in that category.

You’re not sure…?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

There is no reason to believe these mental activities are in different categories.

There is every reason for that. Volitional behavior happens in the “grey cells” or the conscious area of the brain, while beliefs belong to white cells - the subconscious. I wonder if you ever heard of this? One example should suffice. You do NOT believe in the fable of Santa Claus, but - if you have young children - you act as if you believed in his existence. So your deeply held beliefs do not prevent you from acting against them.

You also have the option to change your beliefs if you are a reasonable person.

Try to change your belief so from now on you will belief that Santa Claus is real. Of course if there would be some compelling evidence, then my beliefs WOULD change - automatically, without employing a conscious process.

The obsession with sex even manifests itself in a discussion about miracles! No wonder we are all regarded as naked apes dominated by our instincts and incapable of controlling our desires - and beliefs of course.

You failed to understand. We are talking about your assertion that having an overwhelming belief in God’s existence and even in his demands would CHANGE humans into full and blind compliance with those demands. The actual examples in the Moral Theology section belie your assumption. God could safely manifest himself and we would NOT turn into mindless zombies incapable of using our free will. Some people might, of course, but that would be the exception and not the rule.

Just look at yourself. You are deeply convinced that God exists, and you “know” what he expects of you. Yet, you commit all those venial (and maybe mortal) sins, regardless of your convictions.

There is no need to include “judges” because our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment.

So there is no need for God to perform the judging any more? Why don’t you send him a “pink slip” and fire him from his position. Ever heard of the “Apostle’s creed”?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

You’re not sure…?

Hilarious, isn’t it?

 

[tonyrey]

There are many types of knowledge which have no immediate effect on what we believe but overwhelming knowledge that God exists is certainly not in that category.

Only a lunatics/fanatics are sure they’re infallible.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Only a lunatics/fanatics are sure they’re infallible.

Are you sure that it is a good idea to call the Magisterium to be composed of fanatics and lunatics? What would you call the pope: a fanatic or a lunatic? In the catechism (which is a pretty basic collection of Catholic principles) it is declared that “God existence can be known by the natural light of human reason”. Was the catechism written by lunatics or fanatics?

 

[Bradski]

Only a lunatics/fanatics are sure they’re infallible.

Assuming you are neither, then you have just said that you aren’t sure that God exists.

Maybe this is a good moment to say something along the lines of ‘whoops – not sure why I said that back there’. Put it down to too much coffee or something. I personally won’t hold it against you.

 

[tonyrey]

There is no reason to believe these mental activities are in different categories.

There is every reason for that. Volitional behavior happens in the “grey cells” or the conscious area of the brain, while beliefs belong to white cells - the subconscious.The assumption that the mental activity is reducible to electrical impulses is self-destructive because electrical impulses have no insight whatsoever.

I wonder if you ever heard of this? One example should suffice. You do NOT believe in the fable of Santa Claus, but - if you have young children - you act as if you believed in his existence. So your deeply held beliefs do not prevent you from acting against them.

We are not children.

You also have the option to change your beliefs if you are a reasonable person.

Try to change your belief so from now on you will belief that Santa Claus is real.Try to change your belief that you are infallible!

Of course if there would be some compelling evidence, then my beliefs WOULD change - automatically, without employing a conscious process.

So you believe your reasoning is automatic and mechanical? You have no choice whatsoever? Don’t you ever withhold judgement because you haven’t made up your mind?

The obsession with sex even manifests itself in a discussion about miracles! No wonder we are all regarded as naked apes dominated by our instincts and incapable of controlling our desires - and beliefs of course.

You failed to understand. We are talking about your assertion that having an overwhelming belief in God’s existence and even in his demands would CHANGE humans into full and blind compliance with those demands. The actual examples in the Moral Theology section belie your assumption. God could safely manifest himself and we would NOT turn into mindless zombies incapable of using our free will. Some people might, of course, but that would be the exception and not the rule.You are underestimating the power of fear. That is because your notion of God is inadequate. If you were confronted with the reality of the Creator of the universe you would be paralysed with terror.

Just look at yourself. You are deeply convinced that God exists, and you “know” what he expects of you. Yet, you commit all those venial (and maybe mortal) sins, regardless of your convictions.

Being deeply convinced doesn’t imply that we are constantly aware of God’s presence. We are also creatures of habit but it doesn’t follow that we are totally enslaved by our habits. I have changed my interpretation of Christianity several times as the result of discussions with atheists, agnostics and members of other religions. If we never change our mind about anything we can be sure there’s something wrong with our philosophy. Life is never a question of all or nothing but of subtle distinctions in the meaning of the terms we use. That is where your hypothesis that we cannot change our beliefs collapses. We modify them according to their strength or weakness. Logic and intuition both play a part in reaching our conclusions but we are the ones who make the final decisions, not the ways we have been conditioned to think. Free will implies that we are capable of being detached observers who consider the issues objectively and sometimes realise we have made a mistake for longer than we realised.

There is no need to include “judges” because our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment.

So there is no need for God to perform the judging any more? Why don’t you send him a “pink slip” and fire him from his position. Ever heard of the “Apostle’s creed”? Even though our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment we need to be reminded of the suffering we have caused and confronted with our victims. Otherwise we do not see ourselves as we really are because we tend to rationalise our sins and selfishness. Jesus is our advocate not our judge because He died for us but He tells us that only the truth can make us free. He can liberate us from evil only if we are willing to be liberated and learn how to love others as He has loved us. The Creed doesn’t end with judgment but on a positive note: the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting - with hope not fear and joy not misery… The alternative is eternal darkness and annihilation : “a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing” - a gospel of despair and destruction…