Cogito ergo sum

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if I exist,what am I or who am I ? - twinc
Since the argument is prooving that you exist by some means, what you are, isn’t the
issue and who you are isn’t the issue either.

Rock,Human,sky,bird,tree,pencil,pen,computer,mountain…

Merely that you exist in the Natural Universe.

What you are and who you are is a different issue altogether.
 
In reading Descartes’ meditations, he states that he knows that he exists and that he thinks. Both of these statements are incorrigible. However, something I am wondering about is this – how can he claim to know that he exists and thinks, without first knowing what thinking and existing are, in and of themselves? It seems like he is jumping the horse here.

This is the most important philosophical work of the modern period, so I assume there’s something I’m just not getting here. Any thoughts?
I studied Descartes at university and can’t remember a lot. He’s quite interesting to read but his ethics are a bit dodgy from a Catholic perspective and the Enlightenment has been criticised by the Church. With regards your lead, “I think therefore I am” could be used to justify abortion and euthanasia and to reduce the rights of people with mental disabilities. “I love therefore I am” is more Christian as without love I am but a gong bashing or a cymbal clashing. (my own teaching as I’m going to be a famous saint)
 
I studied Descartes at university and can’t remember a lot. He’s quite interesting to read but his ethics are a bit dodgy from a Catholic perspective and the Enlightenment has been criticised by the Church. With regards your lead, “I think therefore I am” could be used to justify abortion and euthanasia and to reduce the rights of people with mental disabilities. “I love therefore I am” is more Christian as without love I am but a gong bashing or a cymbal clashing. (my own teaching as I’m going to be a famous saint)
when all is said and done it seems its a merry go round.Some realising this get off the horse they are riding,shuffle around a bit and get on another horse.After a while getting dizzy or falling asleep they fall off the horse they are riding,pick themselves up and mount another horse - so see clearly and understand you and I do not think and in fact do not really do anything[for in Him we move and live and have our being]though we claim all sorts especially what we want to claim and reject what we want to reject. - twinc
 
when all is said and done it seems its a merry go round.Some realising this get off the horse they are riding,shuffle around a bit and get on another horse.After a while getting dizzy or falling asleep they fall off the horse they are riding,pick themselves up and mount another horse - so see clearly and understand you and I do not think and in fact do not really do anything[for in Him we move and live and have our being]though we claim all sorts especially what we want to claim and reject what we want to reject. - twinc
in this wise I hope to introduce the topic “Busy doimg nothing” - one of the major Catholic themes is that of surrender and not my will but thine be done and thy kingdom come thy will be done etc - also watch for topic “Choice or chosen”- twinc
 
in this wise I hope to introduce the topic “Busy doimg nothing” - one of the major Catholic themes is that of surrender and not my will but thine be done and thy kingdom come thy will be done etc - also watch for topic “Choice or chosen”- twinc
Thanks for your reply although am a bit confused about falling on and off horses. See you.
 
Since the argument is prooving that you exist by some means, what you are, isn’t the
issue and who you are isn’t the issue either.

Rock,Human,sky,bird,tree,pencil,pen,computer,mountain…

Merely that you exist in the Natural Universe.

What you are and who you are is a different issue altogether.
that is a one helluva leap - so what do you mean by Natural Universe - twinc
 
that is a one helluva leap - so what do you mean by Natural Universe - twinc
ie, an object, animate or not existing, in the Natural Universe, say observable Universe.
occupying a known 4d space, position time, between say the furthest quasars at
both sides of the sphere of the known universe, ie inside the natural universe Natural Universe.

I am saying that the minds difference in handling closed systems is different then open
systems and that it, the mind , has an easier time handling what it knows totally (A closed system of axioms) with a more absolute feel to it, something that is lacking in Descartes method where he uses an open system of thought thus producing the feeling
of non absoluteness in the person doing the reasoning (A trick) , and also comparing
that to Jesus who is all knowing , All powerful for all persons on all timelines, thus there are no open systems to Jesus perspective, hence he always KNOWS with certainty and has no Subjectivity, and trying to show that Descartes by his reasoning using subjective in reality or a subjective in feel system of thought “I think therefore I am” is flawed in his approach and only leads to more subjective dialogue, something you totally avoid if you are 1] Jesus Christ, who is omniscient and omni-present, and omnipotent , something Jesus avoids by the very nature of his existence, and 2] that A mere person can avoid Descartes subjective tautology by switching to physics to merely prove that a person exists in the universe, Descartes original assertion and intent of first tautological assertion.
 
Since Descartes was using observation. he neglected, as so many do, to account for his perception of the observation. He might better have said “I am, and therefore perceive thought associated with and relative too my identification of my “self” as this mind/body.” He never proceeded to the Idea of a Source Consciousness equatable to the synonyms of God and never discerned that his own awareness is a phenomenalized and seemingly local manifestation of THAT. So Descartes did not start where Moses, Ramana, Merrel-Wolff, Katie, KG Mills, and thousands more did: at the Source of Being. That is why Descartes is so popular and debatable; his methodology remains in thought, as does belief, because it is not founded on Knowledge by Identity. And the vast majority of us are believers and thinkers when confronted with the question of existence. That is to say that most who attempt to examine this issue manipulate the contents of the mind without discovering what the mind in essence IS.
 
In reading Descartes’ meditations, he states that he knows that he exists and that he thinks. Both of these statements are incorrigible. However, something I am wondering about is this – how can he claim to know that he exists and thinks, without first knowing what thinking and existing are, in and of themselves? It seems like he is jumping the horse here.

This is the most important philosophical work of the modern period, so I assume there’s something I’m just not getting here. Any thoughts?
Hello pcg2,

Like some people here, I am fighting the cobwebs in my mind. It’s been a while but, I love philosophy. This is a nice forum. 🙂

I remember back in the days asking a similar question about Socrates’ statement: I know that I know nothing. How does he know that he knows nothing? He allows that he knows something and how did he deduce this? A lot of assumptions and ‘knowledge’ have to be accepted to make this statement.

But, I just remembered Chuang Tzu and so in Descartes’ world there may not have been an evil demon which would still allow for his existence because he would still be conscious that there is an evil demon deceiving him but how about if he is merely a figment of someone else’s imagination even if as such, he can do something that he would call ‘think’ he may not necessarily exist independently of that other being that does exist and if at all because what does it mean to exist?. But, then this seems to me to be fighting phathoms like Don Quixote. I learned a long time ago that spiritual knowledge is superior to intellectual knowledge - so I am more in to Catholicism. 🙂

“I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?”
— Chuang Tzu quotes (China’s early interpreters of Taoism, 389-286 BC)
 
I agree with everything you said 👍
I guess I am just disappointed that I am still left with this bitter taste of dissatisfaction though. If we don’t even know precisely what thinking and existing are, then the rest of Descartes’ arguments seem to be shot to hell. But maybe there is something that I am just not getting here…

And I guess Descartes’ ideas on knowledge aren’t the end all be all on the subject. I just wish there was a more satisfying answer to my question.
Argument from Personal Incredulity does not make a valid rebuttal.
 
In reading Descartes’ meditations, he states that he knows that he exists and that he thinks. Both of these statements are incorrigible. However, something I am wondering about is this – how can he claim to know that he exists and thinks, without first knowing what thinking and existing are, in and of themselves? It seems like he is jumping the horse here.

This is the most important philosophical work of the modern period, so I assume there’s something I’m just not getting here. Any thoughts?
Descartes’ Meditations can be considered important from the historical perspective of having sent modern philosophy down the wrong road all together.

Descartes believed he could discard everything he learned from the Jesuits and construct a new philosophical system grounded on what was entirely indubitable. What he concluded that was indubitable was that he exists. Besides the arrogance of the whole project of the Meditations, the famous “Cogito ergo sum” is dead wrong and misleading.

“I think, therefore I am” implies that what the mind know primarily and directly are its ideas. (Here is where we get into some necessary distinctions). Thoughts in the mind, contrary to what Descartes alleged, are not “that which” we know. Ideas are, rather, the means “by which” we know. Ideas or concepts are, so to speak, self-effacing in the act of knowing some thing. The mind knows things, real or imagined. The ideas themselves are not the direct objects of knowledge. To state matters again and more fully, "Ideas, and sense perceptions, are that “by which” we know, and never “that which” we know.

The consequence of Descartes confusion in asserting that what we know directly are ideas and sense perceptions, is that we then have know way of knowing whether our ideas and sense perceptions give us reliable information about the world. Descartes answer to this conundrum he created is to assert the God was trustworthy and would not allow us to be deceived by our ideas and percepts.

Well, that hardly resolves the problem. Locke’s empiricism tried to escape Descartes idealism, but Locke still retained the view that “that which” we know primarily are our ideas and percepts and not things “by means” of our cognitive activity.

The David Hume drew the obvious conclusion to all of this – skepticism about knowledge. Kant tried to rescue knowledge from Hume’s skepticism by constructing his own theory of categories of the mind and so on, which organize sense data, etc. This project was an utter failure, also, except in the minds of Kant’s modern day disciples.

The solution was not to be found in responding to Descartes by constructing new theories. The answer is to recognize the error in Descartes Meditations in which he treats ideas as “that which” we know rather than that “by which” we know. In other words, if instead of “I think, therefore I am” Descartes had said “I know, therefore I am” the history of modern philosophy would not be so disordered.

The incredible disorder of modern philosophy, especially in the area of epistemology, is a classic illustration of Aristotle’s saying, “A little error in the beginning amounts to a colossal one in the end.” The seemingly small error committed by Descartes snowballed through the centuries. I attribute Descartes error to his profound arrogance.

And we can see that so many modern philosophers lack common sense because they still put Descartes before the horse.
 
“I think, therefore I am” Descartes had said “I know, therefore I am” the history of modern philosophy would not be so disordered.
Sorry; how are the two any different?

They both express the fact that one has certain knowledge that one exists through knowledge. Thinking requires knowledge of ones self.
 
Sorry; how are the two any different?

They both express the fact that one has certain knowledge that one exists through knowledge. Thinking requires knowledge ones self.
The difference is critical. Descartes assertion is that what the mind knows are its ideas. By way of a crude analogy, it would be like always seeing a photograph and never knowing whether it corresponded to the real world. One has no direct knowledge of the world if ideas and percepts are “that which” we know, like always seeing only photographs and never the real things.

Ideas and percepts are rather that “by which” we know. This is the main point which you seemed to have overlooked and it is reflected in the revision: “I know, therefore I am.”

The point you seem to be missing along with Descartes is that knowledge is always knowledge of some thing, and not of the idea itself, which is a means of knowledge. There is no certainty in a false conception of knowledge.
 
The difference is critical. Descartes assertion is that what the mind knows are its ideas. By way of a crude analogy, it would be like always seeing a photograph and never knowing whether it corresponded to the real world. One has no direct knowledge of the world if ideas and percepts are “that which” we know, like always seeing only photographs and never the real things.

Ideas and percepts are rather that “by which” we know.
.
I don’t think your distinction is really relevant to what Descartes was trying to do or that such a distinction saves realism, regardless of any errors he made conceptually. How do we know that what we know corresponds in truth to an object outside of what we know? One can have knowledge, but that doesn’t show that ones knowledge contains objective truth. I am not somebody whom believes in the possibility that the whole world exists in my mind, and in fact i believe you can show that objectivity exist in “general”, but not in particular. It seems to me that you are assuming a lot. How does your argument rule out illusion, or a simulation such as some kind of virtual reality?
 
The true error is in thinking that Descartes arguments necessarily undermines metaphysics. But what we fail to realize is that the truth of form and essence or efficient causality and final causality can be shown to be existential and objectively consistent ideas irrespective of the objectivity of scientific data. This is because the principles of metaphysics flows consequently from the idea of “being” which is shown to be necessarily objective in cogito ergo sum, and is not reliant on the truth or falsity of the scientific data in respect of true knowledge.
 
I don’t think your distinction is really relevant to what Descartes was trying to do or that such a distinction saves realism, regardless of any errors he made conceptually.
I can recommend some good histories of philosophy that will explain in great detail that this is most relevant to Descartes project.
How do we know that what we know corresponds in truth to an object outside of what we know?
If you have any doubts, the next time a car is headed straight for you, no need to move out of the way, because perhaps you really are not perceiving things as they are.
One can have knowledge, but that doesn’t show that ones knowledge contains objective truth.
If it is knowledge then it is truth. There is really no such thing as false knowledge. If it is false, then it is not knowledge.
I am not somebody whom believes in the possibility that the whole world exists in my mind, and in fact i believe you can show that objectivity exist in “general”, but not in particular. It seems to me that you are assuming a lot. How does your argument rule out illusion, or a simulation such as some kind virtual reality?
You are making a typical Cartesian error in dealing with knowledge. The first step should never be criticism or a critiquing of knowledge. Rather the first step, should always be an attempt to explain the knowledge that we do have, what makes it possible.

We can only speak of illusion and such because we know what real is. Otherwise, there is no basis for asserting or distinguishing something is illusory.

Descartes knew his position would lead to solipsism, which is why he had to resort to God as guaranteeing our ideas. David Hume realized that Descartes position necessarily entailed skepticism, and it does for the reasons I stated in my first post, so my reasons are most relevant to the Cartesian error as even the history of philosophy demonstrates.
 
The true error is in thinking that Descartes arguments necessarily undermines metaphysics. But what we fail to realize is that the truth of form and essence or efficient causality and final causality can be shown to be existential and objectively consistent ideas irrespective of the objectivity of scientific data. This is because the principles of metaphysics flows consequently from the idea of “being” which is shown to be necessarily objective in cogito ergo sum, and is not reliant on the truth or falsity of the scientific data in respect of true knowledge.
You pretty much have the situation inverted and standing on its head. The metaphysical notion of “being” begins with sense knowledge, not with some artificial mind experiment about certitude.

Scientific data is irrelevant to the philosophical issues, so no need to reference that.
 
The difference is critical. Descartes assertion is that what the mind knows are its ideas. By way of a crude analogy, it would be like always seeing a photograph and never knowing whether it corresponded to the real world. One has no direct knowledge of the world if ideas and percepts are “that which” we know, like always seeing only photographs and never the real things.

Ideas and percepts are rather that “by which” we know. This is the main point which you seemed to have overlooked and it is reflected in the revision: “I know, therefore I am.”

The point you seem to be missing along with Descartes is that knowledge is always knowledge of some thing, and not of the idea itself, which is a means of knowledge. There is no certainty in a false conception of knowledge.
Itinerant,

This is a good point. Have you read Mortimer Adler’s Ten Philosophical Mistakes? He presses the ‘that which’ and ‘by which’ distinction in St. Thomas Aquinas. On the balance his analysis is quite good.

If I may add a slight historical note-- in Descartes it is not quite clear what exactly he takes to be the object of consciousness, whether the idea or not. But Nicholas Malebranche explicitly formulates what was implicit in Descartes.

-Rob
 
If you have any doubts, the next time a car is headed straight for you, no need to move out of the way, because perhaps you really are not perceiving things as they are.
whether i am right or wrong, this i a very weak argument, and it shows that you don’t really understand the epistemological issue the Descartes is raising. I have no problem with accepting that reality is objective. I take it on faith or rather intuition that it is real. However i have no epistemologically certain evidence that to be run over by what appears to be a car is to be truly and objectively run over by a car, since my seeing something or experiencing something is not direct proof of it necessarily corresponding to some event outside of my mind objectively.
If it is knowledge then it is truth. There is really no such thing as false knowledge. If it is false, then it is not knowledge.
General knowledge doesn’t have to include truth. I.e i can have knowledge of a fiction. In other words i am aware of some information that i take to be fictional. Anyone ever told you a lie. Ever thought you saw something but didn’t. Anybody that’s ever had an hallucination can tell you that your argument is bogus. You are now restricting the meaning of “knowledge” in-order to make it appear as if my argument is faulty. Okay; epistemologically speaking, all we can know for certain is that we are receiving “information” and that such information appears objective or rather truly representative of something existing out side my mind that corresponds exactly to the appearance. You have not addressed how we can no for certain that its false; you have merely claimed that we have no practical reason to think its false. Practically speaking, i agree. Epistemologically speaking; i don’t agree.
 
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