Cohabitation and communion

[elliotfc]

Cohabitation is to live an unchaste life, and to live an unchaste life willfully and with no desire to repent is to live in a state of mortal sin, and as such a person who cohabitates is not permitted to receive communion.

Correct the above if I am wrong, but I think that’s pretty much it.

I was speaking with a feisty gal in one of my choirs. A really good person. And after mass, she decided to tell me that she receives communion even though she is cohabitating. Both she and her husband are separated from their spouses, and have not legally divorced their spouses. She is certainly aware that the Church tells us that in her state, she ought not receive communion, yet her opinion is that in the Gospels, Jesus tells us that anyone who believes that the Eucharist the true body and true blood of Christ will have eternal life. She does not believe that the Church has the authority to deny anyone who believes in the real presence (and she certainly believes in the real presence) the Eucharist. She understands “take and eat” to be a commandment of Christ for believers in Christ to follow.

I didn’t get into an argument with her. I just said that her conscience is her own, and that the Church does have the authority to deny communion on a variety of grounds (murderers, rapists, etc.) which of course she accepted, but of course she also said that she is not a murderer or a rapist.

So the good news is that she believes in the Real Presence, and the bad news is that she doesn’t respect the authority of the Church as dispensers of this sacrament.

In my opinion…probably 60-70% of people who receive communion weekly are living in some sort of state of mortal sin…primarily because of unconfessed sins, secondarily because of some sort of sexual unchastity. How uncharitable of me to think this.

 

[KatieD]

You make a good observation, and I think you’re right.
I have a Protestant friend who has come with me to Mass many times. I’ve explained the Real Presence to him, and he understands that we are not to receive in a state of mortal sin and that we have the sacrament of confession available to us. His question to me, of course, has been whether all those people in long lines during Mass waiting to receive Holy Communion go to confession, and how can they receive without going to confession regularly?

Both of our priests recently have had homilies in which they commented about the lines for Holy Communion being long, but the lines for confession being quite short.

 

[puzzleannie]

, she decided to tell me that she receives communion even though she is cohabitating. Both she and her husband are separated from their spouses, and have not legally divorced their spouses. .

this description of their situation makes no sense. what husband?
I always wonder why people like this, if they are so secure in their decisions to act against Catholic teaching even while remaining active in their parishes, feel the need to be so “in your face” about it, and why they feel compelled to share this type of info.

 

[elliotfc]

this description of their situation makes no sense. what husband?

She is legally married in the United States to a man who, like herself, is still legally married to a spouse living in a different country. Supposedly. I am under the impression that this is not uncommon.

I always wonder why people like this, if they are so secure in their decisions to act against Catholic teaching even while remaining active in their parishes, feel the need to be so “in your face” about it, and why they feel compelled to share this type of info.

Probably because there is real guilt there, and articulating it to a sympathetic ear helps to assuage the guilt. Or she’s a malcontent who wants others to understand her situation. We’re friends, that could be another reason.

 

[empacae]

I might be able to give some insight here. I went through the same thing living with a girlfriend. But my conscious was really bothering me, so I went to confession about it. There was no other way to word it other than I was commiting ADULTERY. The Father knew my position I was living in, and my girlfriend’s (whoops, ex-girlfriend’s), and instructed me that to get back in God’s grace I was to move out. It was a hard decision to make. I knew everything he was telling me was right, but I also trusted in the Lord’s mercy, and decided to stay, and if I died in this state, I may be fortunate enough to throw myself at the Lord’s feet and beg for forgiveness. However, for the first time in my life (and a hard thing for my Father to do) my sins were retained. And that I was to abstain from receiving communion, and that if I took communion I would be committing a worse offence. SACRILEGE. So for 8 more months I went to Mass every Sunday, and most painfully could not, did not go up to receive the blessed host. I wish I can say I came to my senses and did as I was instructed to do. But the relationship fell through, and I moved out, and made amends, and am much MUCH happier today and in retrospect, regretted I did not follow my pastor’s advice.

Hope this helps,

Love in Christ,

emp

 

[tawny2005]

I went thru a time when I left the church,a wild time if you will. Durning that time I moved in with my boyfriend. Now I have started going back to Mass and am trying to get right with god. I know I am darkened with my awful sin and god can see the scarlet A I wear that only he sees. I know I must NEVER recieve communion until I have gone to confession and I can not go to confession and confess fornication unless I repent. I strugle now with either marrying my great boyfriend, moving out, or struggling to sleep in seperate bedrooms and absaining from relations until the day we chose to marry. It is painful!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

\In my opinion…probably 60-70% of people who receive communion weekly are living in some sort of state of mortal sin…primarily because of unconfessed sins, secondarily because of some sort of sexual unchastity. How uncharitable of me to think this.

I was with you until this.

This last bit is very uncharitable and you can in no way know this. You are judgeing where you have no right to judge as you do not know any facts.

As for this woman, you know facts but you can not say that she is committing mortal sin as for a sin to be considered a mortal sin there are conditions that need to be met which you can not truly judge.

But I agree with you 100% that she should not be receiveing communion and I would tell her such seeing that she volunteered the information that she is living in sin.

 

[mchium]

I was with you until this.

This last bit is very uncharitable and you can in no way know this. You are judgeing where you have no right to judge as you do not know any facts.

As for this woman, you know facts but you can not say that she is committing mortal sin as for a sin to be considered a mortal sin there are conditions that need to be met which you can not truly judge.

But I agree with you 100% that she should not be receiveing communion and I would tell her such seeing that she volunteered the information that she is living in sin.

:twocents: I’m going to be ‘uncharitable’, too (that’s tongue in cheek because I don’t believe it’s uncharitable but rather is common sense). No one is judging individual people of anything, but if you use common sense, if you look at the size of the lines for confession on any given Saturday in any given parish (if you can even find a ‘line’) and then watch the Communicants on Sunday…well, give me a break! Who are we kidding:shrug:

At the very least, there are a whole lot of people going to Communion who are NOT going to confession. So, what are we to conclude? I have it…maybe they’re all saints! There’s just me and about 10 other people in my parish who sin, according to what I see. And, no, I can’t judge the individuals, one by one, but I can sure say there have to be a lot of unconfessed sins or else God is a liar. I opt for the former…and I pray for all of us sinners.

 

[mercygate]

She is legally married in the United States to a man who, like herself, is still legally married to a spouse living in a different country. Supposedly. I am under the impression that this is not uncommon.

Probably because there is real guilt there, and articulating it to a sympathetic ear helps to assuage the guilt. Or she’s a malcontent who wants others to understand her situation. We’re friends, that could be another reason.

Your friend’s situation is perhaps less “guilt” than the knowledge that she is living with a man who is still married to another woman. If I were going to assist her in moving back into a state of grace, I would start by noticing that she is living with a bigamist. She knows that the man she is living with has no qualms about cheating on a woman.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

:twocents: I’m going to be ‘uncharitable’, too (that’s tongue in cheek because I don’t believe it’s uncharitable but rather is common sense). No one is judging individual people of anything, but if you use common sense, if you look at the size of the lines for confession on any given Saturday in any given parish (if you can even find a ‘line’) and then watch the Communicants on Sunday…well, give me a break! Who are we kidding:shrug:

At the very least, there are a whole lot of people going to Communion who are NOT going to confession. So, what are we to conclude? I have it…maybe they’re all saints! There’s just me and about 10 other people in my parish who sin, according to what I see. And, no, I can’t judge the individuals, one by one, but I can sure say there have to be a lot of unconfessed sins or else God is a liar. I opt for the former…and I pray for all of us sinners.

I disagree with you. You can not go by the size of the lines for confession unless you are standing there watching every line in every Church.

One must only confess mortal sin, to say that a majority of people recieving communion are gulity of unconfessed mortal sin is not only judgeing but shows a lack of understanding of what the Catholic Church acutally teaches. Only mortal sin must be confessed and must meet three conditions, those being that the sin must be of grave matter, must be done with full knowledge and deliberate consent of the will.

To say that a majority of those recieving communion are guilty is to make a judgement without any knowledge.

Another reason why the lines are short, at least in some cases, is that many priests hear confession by appointment and some people travel elsewhere (that is some where other than their parish) for confession.

 

[elliotfc]

I was with you until this.

This last bit is very uncharitable and you can in no way know this. You are judgeing where you have no right to judge as you do not know any facts.

I guess I base this on statistics. If the statistics are right, the majority of Catholics willfully acknowledge using contraception, either before marriage or during marriage, and do not agree that it is sinful to engage in the practice.

In addition, I base this on the fact that the majority of Catholics disregard the sacrament of reconciliation.

I hope I am wrong. I hope the statisticians and pollsters are lying when they say that the majority of Catholics contracept at some point in their life, particularly during marriage, and I hope that I am wrong, that most Catholics do regularly receive the sacrament of reconciliation.

I do have a right to judge by the way, it is a matter of free will. My judgement, of course, is hardly worth a darn in the grand scheme of things. Jesus never said that we do not have the right to judge. Now, my judgement matters more to you than most Catholics I reckon, and thank you for calling me out on that, I sincerely mean that.

As for this woman, you know facts but you can not say that she is committing mortal sin as for a sin to be considered a mortal sin there are conditions that need to be met which you can not truly judge.

Fair enough. She does seen certain in her position, I will say that.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

:twocents: I’m going to be ‘uncharitable’, too (that’s tongue in cheek because I don’t believe it’s uncharitable but rather is common sense). No one is judging individual people of anything, but if you use common sense, if you look at the size of the lines for confession on any given Saturday in any given parish (if you can even find a ‘line’) and then watch the Communicants on Sunday…well, give me a break! Who are we kidding:shrug:

At the very least, there are a whole lot of people going to Communion who are NOT going to confession. So, what are we to conclude? I have it…maybe they’re all saints! There’s just me and about 10 other people in my parish who sin, according to what I see. And, no, I can’t judge the individuals, one by one, but I can sure say there have to be a lot of unconfessed sins or else God is a liar. I opt for the former…and I pray for all of us sinners.

HOW do you know they are NOT going to Confession? Are you “in their pockets” all day? LOL. If one would see me they would think I never go to Confession, although I am regularly in Communion line. Why? because I go to a different parish (thta IS allowed you know)…one that has more convenient times. I also go in the half hour before I go to daily Latin Mass…so no one from my parish would ever think that I go to Confession. You should not be so judgmental when you do not know the whole story. Maybe you should ask…

:heart:Blyss

 

[elliotfc]

Your friend’s situation is perhaps less “guilt” than the knowledge that she is living with a man who is still married to another woman. If I were going to assist her in moving back into a state of grace, I would start by noticing that she is living with a bigamist. She knows that the man she is living with has no qualms about cheating on a woman.

Plus they have a child together. I dunno if I will, or ought to, say anything to her. I’ve never been married, maybe I’ll take the CS Lewis approach and let it be.

 

[elliotfc]

I disagree with you. You can not go by the size of the lines for confession unless you are standing there watching every line in every Church.

If there was a church that had confession lines as long as communion lines…I GUARANTEE we would know about such a church. We could name it, name the priests at that church, etc. It would be written about in various publications, get EWTN pub, etc.

One must only confess mortal sin, to say that a majority of people recieving communion are gulity of unconfessed mortal sin is not only judgeing but shows a lack of understanding of what the Catholic Church acutally teaches.

To this statement I do yield, I certainly am not an expert on what is a mortal sin, and what isn’t. I’m under the impression that contraception is a mortal sin, and I may be wrong about this.

To say that a majority of those recieving communion are guilty is to make a judgement without any knowledge.

No. Limited knowledge, imperfect knowledge, anecdotal knowledge. But not without any knowledge.

You are being as judgemental as I have been, by the way, not that I’m personally offended by that or anything.

Another reason why the lines are short, at least in some cases, is that many priests hear confession by appointment and some people travel elsewhere (that is some where other than their parish) for confession.

I’d like the name of a single US priest, who is not connected to a religious community in some direct way, who hears more than, on average, 12 confessions by appointment a week

I am not being cynical, just reasonable, and I’m happy to see specifics to make me zip it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I guess I base this on statistics. If the statistics are right, the majority of Catholics willfully acknowledge using contraception, either before marriage or during marriage, and do not agree that it is sinful to engage in the practice.

That being said you still do not know that these people are guilty of mortal sin. Again the conditions.

In addition, I base this on the fact that the majority of Catholics disregard the sacrament of reconciliation.

I have seen no such statistics and even if I did I would not believe them 100% as statistics are not fool proof nor are such surveys all that reliable.

I hope I am wrong. I hope the statisticians and pollsters are lying when they say that the majority of Catholics contracept at some point in their life, particularly during marriage, and I hope that I am wrong, that most Catholics do regularly receive the sacrament of reconciliation.

I do not base my faith on statistics or polls. As Mark Twain said, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

I do have a right to judge by the way, it is a matter of free will. My judgement, of course, is hardly worth a darn in the grand scheme of things. Jesus never said that we do not have the right to judge. Now, my judgement matters more to you than most Catholics I reckon, and thank you for calling me out on that, I sincerely mean that.

Wrong here. According to the Teachings of the Catholic Church you have no right to judge the state of someone elses soul which is what you do when you assume that the majority of Catholics are in moral sin and committing a sacrilege.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If there was a church that had confession lines as long as communion lines…I GUARANTEE we would know about such a church. We could name it, name the priests at that church, etc. It would be written about in various publications, get EWTN pub, etc.

I am not so sure about this. There were always lines at the times for confession at the University I attended. Not always something that will be reported as it isn’t really anyones business.

To this statement I do yield, I certainly am not an expert on what is a mortal sin, and what isn’t. I’m under the impression that contraception is a mortal sin, and I may be wrong about this.

Again, there are conditions to wether or not a sin is mortal or not. Contraception is of sufficently grave matter but if the person lacks knowledge of it being a sin or uses it with out full consent of their will then it is not a mortal sin for that person. We can never judge if all these conditions are met.

No. Limited knowledge, imperfect knowledge, anecdotal knowledge. But not without any knowledge.

Basicly it is without any knowledge. You accuse people of being guilty of something that you have no way of knowing if they are. Limited, imperfect, anecdotal knowledge is not good enough to condemn people which is what you do.

You are being as judgemental as I have been, by the way, not that I’m personally offended by that or anything.

But I am acting with full knowledge of what you are saying and what the Catholic Church Teaches.

I’d like the name of a single US priest, who is not connected to a religious community in some direct way, who hears more than, on average, 12 confessions by appointment a week

No priest should ever give you such information as it is none of your business what others are doing but I can name a couple who could give you this information if they wanted to.

I am not being cynical, just reasonable, and I’m happy to see specifics to make me zip it.

You are being cynical by judging with no actual knowledge. You assume a majority of those recieving communion are guilty of mortal sin because you do not see them making confessions. The only way that would satisfy you would be for either a priest to violate the seal of the confessional or for you to actually see everyone going to confession. Neither of which is ever going to happen.

 

[jmcrae]

If there was a church that had confession lines as long as communion lines…I GUARANTEE we would know about such a church. We could name it, name the priests at that church, etc. It would be written about in various publications, get EWTN pub, etc.

Actually, my parish is like that, and it’s considered “normal” by everyone who “counts” - it has certainly never been featured on EWTN, whose producers most likely have never even heard of it.

To this statement I do yield, I certainly am not an expert on what is a mortal sin, and what isn’t. I’m under the impression that contraception is a mortal sin, and I may be wrong about this.

Mortal sin requires three criteria: Full knowledge, Full consent of the will, and grave matter.

Not to defend people who contracept, but there are plenty of people who lack full knowledge, because they have been deceived by their doctors into thinking that contraception is a moral good - which goes to the second criteria: full consent of the will - if your doctor, whom you trust, claims that your health will be impaired if you have “too many” children or if you don’t use his special brand of xyz ABC pill, you may feel that you have no choice in the matter - after all, you have literally been threatened with death or grievous bodily harm if you don’t do it.

However, there are also many cases of people contracepting who are fully aware of the Church’s teachings, and who are independent and intelligent enough to do their own research in addition to listening to their doctor; these people would be in the state of mortal sin. My point being that you can’t tell from the outside which is which - and you also don’t know which couples are abstaining from sex or using Natural Family Planning for a serious reason that may not be apparent to you.

Apart from certain habitual sins related to sex, gluttony, and gossip, I doubt that most people commit mortal sins every single week. When I first joined the Church, I used to have to go to Confession every week, but I have conquered my former bad habits, and nowadays I go to Confession about once a month or once every two months, and I really don’t have a whole lot to confess, compared to what I did before.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Actually, my parish is like that, and it’s considered “normal” by everyone who “counts” - it has certainly never been featured on EWTN, whose producers most likely have never even heard of it.

Mortal sin requires three criteria: Full knowledge, Full consent of the will, and grave matter.

Not to defend people who contracept, but there are plenty of people who lack full knowledge, because they have been deceived by their doctors into thinking that contraception is a moral good - which goes to the second criteria: full consent of the will - if your doctor, whom you trust, claims that your health will be impaired if you have “too many” children or if you don’t use his special brand of xyz ABC pill, you may feel that you have no choice in the matter - after all, you have literally been threatened with death or grievous bodily harm if you don’t do it.

However, there are also many cases of people contracepting who are fully aware of the Church’s teachings, and who are independent and intelligent enough to do their own research in addition to listening to their doctor; these people would be in the state of mortal sin. My point being that you can’t tell from the outside which is which - and you also don’t know which couples are abstaining from sex or using Natural Family Planning for a serious reason that may not be apparent to you.

jmcrae,
Great post and thanks. You have said exactly what I was trying to say but in a more clear manner than I could get out. This is a problem I have at times.

Apart from certain habitual sins related to sex, gluttony, and gossip, I doubt that most people commit mortal sins every single week. When I first joined the Church, I used to have to go to Confession every week, but I have conquered my former bad habits, and nowadays I go to Confession about once a month or once every two months, and I really don’t have a whole lot to confess, compared to what I did before.

Just one note. A sin committed due to a habit might not be a mortal sin as a habit could mean that it is being done without full consent of the will.

 

[elliotfc]

That being said you still do not know that these people are guilty of mortal sin. Again the conditions.

Fine, I yield. It is better to assume that everyone who receives communion is not in a state of mortal sin, and believes in the Real Presence.

Wrong here. According to the Teachings of the Catholic Church you have no right to judge the state of someone elses soul which is what you do when you assume that the majority of Catholics are in moral sin and committing a sacrilege.

No, I do have that right. Just like I have the right to do anything within my capacity.

I’m sorry that you reject the doctrine of free will, but you too have that right. We are not automatons. We can willfully do things, think things, and make judgments. To say we don’t have that right is to say that God did not grant us free will and that is a heresy.

 

[BobP123]

This last bit is very uncharitable and you can in no way know this. You are judgeing where you have no right to judge as you do not know any facts.

You know, Byz, you really need to do a reality check. I hear one or two of the abortionist politicians get applauded when they receive communion. How does that fit in with your judgement theory?

Even if you give the cohabitants the benefit of the doubt, there is such a sin called scandal, which is itself a very serious sin. You can’t let that one slide.