Cohabitation and communion

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

The link is the encyclopedia entry on sin, section III is mortal sin.

Go 20% down the link.

Nowhere does it mention Hell of eternal judgment.

Now, if God was bound by a dictionary definition of mortal sin, then mortal sin would be greater than God, or, God would be compelled to act in a predetermined way by what is defined to be mortal sin.

Second, mortal sin, if it had an necessary eternal result. ought to be called immortal sin. No?

Rather than using the Catholic Encyclopedia found at the newadvent site lets use an actual document of the Catholic Church, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

Now, granted this entry does not specifically state the words “mortal sin” but if you read it carefully you will see the three conditions required for a sin to be mortal (knowing, willing, and grave matter). You will see that it brings eternal death (read Hell here) if one dies with such a sin unrepented.

 

[elliotfc]

“Mortal sin” means that they are going directly to Hell without any stop-offs along the way and with no second chances. If you say that people have mortal sin, you are passing the judgement of final damnation upon their souls.

One more try.

I don’t know if an action ought to be defined by the consequence.

Let’s say that I rob a bank. Is “robbing a bank” defined as going to jail? Because that would be the consequence of robbing a bank.

Mortal sin is something that is done…well, I guess it could also be a sin omission. That there are consequences is fine, but it is mortal sin is not essentially a consequence. It is what it is, and cause and effect kicks in as it does.

Also…you can commit a mortal sin. That will never change. A mortal sin can be committed and it has been committed, end of. If you repent of that mortal sin, that doesn’t mean a mortal sin was never committed. It still happened. Therefore, mortal sin does not necessarily lead to eternal damnation.

 

[jmcrae]

One more try.

I don’t know if an action ought to be defined by the consequence.

Let’s say that I rob a bank. Is “robbing a bank” defined as going to jail? Because that would be the consequence of robbing a bank.

I think we are drifting off the point.

If you were to say, “That man robbed a bank,” you would have to know so for a fact, or else you could be sued for libel.

If you say, “That person is in the state of mortal sin,” or if you say, “everyone at my parish is in the state of mortal sin,” then you’d better know so for a fact, or else you’re guilty of passing the kind of judgement against that person that Jesus forbids us to make.

Got it?

 

[elliotfc]

I think we are drifting off the point.

If you were to say, “That man robbed a bank,” you would have to know so for a fact, or else you could be sued for libel.

Sure, and if I were to make such a statement, I wouldn’t do so without reason.

As far as knowing so for a fact…I dunno if that means eyewitness. People make statements all the time without being eyewitnesses to the occasion.

If you say, “That person is in the state of mortal sin,” or if you say, “everyone at my parish is in the state of mortal sin,” then you’d better know so for a fact, or else you’re guilty of passing the kind of judgement against that person that Jesus forbids us to make.

Got it?

Sure. I haven’t said that any particular person is in the state of mortal sin. I suspect it every now and then without obsessing about it, or holding someone in a negative opinion. There are reasons that lead me to believe that a good hunk of people receive communion when they either aren’t prepared or living in a state of mortal sin. Thanks for your opinion about my opinion, I’ll deal with the consequences of it, and I’ll be letting go now.

Plus…we’re all sinners. I guess that’s a judgement too.

 

[whatevergirl]

Well…this is why we have Confession…titled perfectly. Note, it’s not tited ‘Coersion.’ One must willingly come to Confession, if he/she is Catholic…to ask for forgiveness…and offer a good act of contrition. (and to try hard to repent) It’s not for us to say…this or that person should go to Confession…if he/she wants to receive the Eucharist. Or…this or that person shouldn’t be on line.

I remember when Peter was walking with Jesus and turned and looked behind him to see another Apostle following. As if jealous, Peter says to Jesus…‘what about him?’ Jesus’ reply? ‘You follow me. Don’t worry about him.’ (ha–in other words…mind your own beeswax)

We should always help our brothers and sisters on their journey towards Christ…just like we need to help of them for us, as well. But, we shouldn’t condemn. If a priest wants to take an action to ask someone not to receive, because he is aware of the mortal sin that someone has on his/her soul…then that’s a different ballgame.

 

[tcraig]

And I agree that it is not my responsibility to “judge” the disposition of anyone’s soul. It is up to the pastor and bishop. However, it is certainly within my purvue to observe, reflect, and even question why things are the way they are.

Agree with this statement. I know plenty of Catholics who regularly miss mass without a legitimate reason, cohabit, use birth control, advocate sterilization (having had it done themselves), etc. who never go to confession but always go to communion. They aren’t ignorant of the Church’s basic teachings, they just choose to ignore them.

I don’t worry about them too much, certainly I’m not judging their soul, but I do notice and observe. And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that in my parish our confession lines are pitifully small while our communion lines are huge. Our priest talks about the need for confession quite a bit, too.

I think the honest truth is that far too many people just don’t think of themselves as sinful. They view themselves as “good” people (and most that I know who are habitual knowing sinners are generally nice folks), certainly not murderers or child abusers, and think that their particular sins aren’t really that bad in the scheme of things - certainly not bad enough to send them to Hell! To them, confession just isn’t “necessary” - I’ve heard a man argue that God isn’t going to send him to Hell just for knowingly eating meat on a Friday in Lent. And who knows, maybe he’s right? I don’t argue the point; I just say that I prefer not to take any chances.

 

[BobP123]

To them, confession just isn’t “necessary” - I’ve heard a man argue that God isn’t going to send him to Hell just for knowingly eating meat on a Friday in Lent. And who knows, maybe he’s right? I don’t argue the point; I just say that I prefer not to take any chances.

But condemning someone to Hell as opposed to telling him not to go to communion are two different things. If you commit a mortal sin such as you describe, you can say an act of perfect contrition and God I’m sure will take that into account if you die on the spot. But to receive communion, which is very seldom really necessary (unless it fulfills your Easter duty on the last day), you must get absolution through confession if you have a mortal sin on your soul. No ands, buts, or ifs.

 

[whatevergirl]

But condemning someone to Hell as opposed to telling him not to go to communion are two different things. If you commit a mortal sin such as you describe, you can say an act of perfect contrition and God I’m sure will take that into account if you die on the spot. But to receive communion, which is very seldom really necessary (unless it fulfills your Easter duty on the last day), you must get absolution through confession if you have a mortal sin on your soul. No ands, buts, or ifs.

Yeah, that sounds right.

 

[rwoehmke]

HOW do you know they are NOT going to Confession? Are you “in their pockets” all day? LOL. If one would see me they would think I never go to Confession, although I am regularly in Communion line. Why? because I go to a different parish (thta IS allowed you know)…one that has more convenient times. I also go in the half hour before I go to daily Latin Mass…so no one from my parish would ever think that I go to Confession. You should not be so judgmental when you do not know the whole story. Maybe you should ask…

:heart:Blyss

It defies common sense to think these people are all going to confession somewhere else. It seems a common observation by folks on these forums who attend different Parish Churches are seeing the same phenomena in almost all those churches. Now on the other hand to assume that all these folks are laden down with Mortal Sin is a really difficult judgment to make. I wouldn’t disagree that they may be taking part in objectively seriously sinful actions, but unless they understand that what they are doing is seriously wrong and are doing it freely and knowingly one cannot know with any certainty that they are in a state of serious sin. I really don’t think that many people really have the requisite knowledge and judgement to know what they are doing. One could say that as a society we have lost our “sense of sin”.

 

[elliotfc]

I guess we don’t know anything.

We don’t know that 1.5 million abortions are committed every year. I don’t follow abortionists all day long. Maybe the stats are wrong. How can we be sure?

Maybe there is no such thing as a mortal sin. Since I brought up an abortionist, even if they are told by a bishop that they ought not commit an abortion, maybe they have a mental handicap which, for whatever reasons, takes any words said by a bishop and translates them into a different meaning. Meaning, they are responding to something else than what is said. That could be possible. We don’t know that.

Maybe there is no such thing as mortal sin. Or venial sin. We don’t know everything about everybody.