Cohabitation and family visits

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t see much difference. It doesn’t matter if you keep them on your Christmas card list or not. Advice was given that the original poster should not even travel to the same city as this couple, in order to avoid them entirely. Refusing to socialize with members of your own family who are not living up to all of the church’s teachings is highly inappropriate, even if it is ostensibly for the benefit of your children. This is not something Catholics do. It is highly disturbing that posters on here would seriously suggest refusing to share a meal with these people. This is not Jehovah’s Witness Answers.

You are misrepresenting our advice. You may not see much difference but the reality is that there IS a big difference. The OP’s in laws can come and visit their family without the son and his GF, who is pregnant. Yes, it definitely IS something Catholic parents need to do, for the sake of their children. No kids, then it is up to the people involved, if they don’t feel it creates scandal for others, but with kids involved, no, they should not stay in the in laws’ house. I vote that the MIL and FIL come and visit them, problem avoided.

The consequences are with the couple who are fornicating and are unmarried. Do not shame the OP and his wife.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You are misrepresenting our advice. You may not see much difference but the reality is that there IS a big difference. The OP’s in laws can come and visit their family without the son and his GF, who is pregnant. Yes, it definitely IS something Catholic parents need to do, for the sake of their children. No kids, then it is up to the people involved, if they don’t feel it creates scandal for others, but with kids involved, no, they should not stay in the in laws’ house. I vote that the MIL and FIL come and visit them, problem avoided.

The consequences are with the couple who are fornicating and are unmarried. Do not shame the OP and his wife.

“We won’t be coming to visit you, but you are welcome to come see us, just leave the sinners at home” does not sound like a philosophy that the Jesus that I was taught about as a kid would endorse.

Besides, the pregnant woman is carrying the OP’s wife’s niece or nephew. She may want to be able to have a relationship with this child.

 

[Allegra]

Frankly, I wouldn’t worry about it. I don’t know how old your kids are but eventually they are going to have to figure out that some of the people that we love don’t always do exactly what we would like them to be doing. If they are too young to get that, they probably won’t notice anyway. I think it is very unlikely that you are going to be able to shield your kids from the fact that many people don’t understand the relationships between men and women the way we do for very long. (Unless you take some rather unhealthy, extreme precautions) I think in this case, if they even notice, you can use it as a teaching moment to talk about hating the sin and not the sinner. Meanwhile, you can impress the importance and the permanance of family on them.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

“We won’t be coming to visit you, but you are welcome to come see us, just leave the sinners at home” does not sound like a philosophy that the Jesus that I was taught about as a kid would endorse.

Besides, the pregnant woman is carrying the OP’s wife’s niece or nephew. She may want to be able to have a relationship with this child.

Please, if you are going to lecture us about what Jesus would do…Just don’t, OK? You are an atheist, we don’t need to hear what you believe about Jesus. You aren’t a Christian right now.



You might be later, in which case, you can lecture us if you wish.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Please, if you are going to lecture us about what Jesus would do…Just don’t, OK? You are an atheist, we don’t need to hear what you believe about Jesus. You aren’t a Christian right now.



You might be later, in which case, you can lecture us if you wish.

I was still raised in a very religious home and have a strong background in Christian theology. I didn’t tell you what I believe about Jesus, I’m just pointing out that your stance goes against what many Christians, Protestants and Catholics alike, believe about Jesus.

 

[AthenaC]

Also, people that are not yet parents, can not fully understand how impressionable young children truly are. You do not realize how much children, even toddlers, pick up on things said, things seen, and things heard. If a sinful situation can be avoided to protect the child until they are of an appropriate age to understand the consequences of the sin being committed, then that’s what should happen, its the parent’s job to not expose their children to any unecessary sinful situations. Period.

Even before I was a parent, I was raised by a couple of parents. The bolded seemed to be their philosophy; I was very sheltered, which was very destructive. Once I grew up and saw everything I had been sheltered from, I didn’t know what to do with it at first.

Now that I am a parent, I am still not a fan of sheltering kids. Bottom line, they are going to be “exposed” whether anyone likes it or not, unless you live under a rock. Your job is to teach them how to handle that exposure; if you remove every possible exposure from their lives, it’s the equivalent of raising them in a sanitary bubble - once they leave that sanitary bubble they will be constantly ill because their immune system didn’t develop normally and can’t handle the rest of the world. You’ve heard of the stereotype of the sheltered Catholic kid who goes to college and goes wild, yes? There’s a reason it’s a stereotype - stereotypes don’t just materialize out of thin air.

Now, obviously, OP, they are YOUR kids, and not MY kids, so the ultimate decision is yours.

 

[PatriceA]

Even before I was a parent, I was raised by a couple of parents. The bolded seemed to be their philosophy; I was very sheltered, which was very destructive. Once I grew up and saw everything I had been sheltered from, I didn’t know what to do with it at first.

Now that I am a parent, I am still not a fan of sheltering kids. Bottom line, they are going to be “exposed” whether anyone likes it or not, unless you live under a rock. Your job is to teach them how to handle that exposure; if you remove every possible exposure from their lives, it’s the equivalent of raising them in a sanitary bubble - once they leave that sanitary bubble they will be constantly ill because their immune system didn’t develop normally and can’t handle the rest of the world. You’ve heard of the stereotype of the sheltered Catholic kid who goes to college and goes wild, yes? There’s a reason it’s a stereotype - stereotypes don’t just materialize out of thin air.

Now, obviously, OP, they are YOUR kids, and not MY kids, so the ultimate decision is yours.

I wasn’t advocating for sheltering kids forever. But a parent does have the responsibility to not expose them to situations that are inappropriate before the child is old enough to process the situation properly. I’m not a fan for sheltering kids either, my parents also did the same. But I’m not a fan of anything goes and let’s just let kids deal with life and adult situations before they may need to. There should be a balance, it shouldn’t be all or nothing.

If I’m at Thanksgiving and my alcoholic uncle is well on his well to a full blown out drunk session and my child is say, only 5 or 6, I’m leaving the Thanksgiving celebration, I’m not exposing my child to an inappropriate sinful situation. But if my child is much older, I might handle the situation very differently, and I’d definitely be having a discussion with him/her. Same with cohabitating, a child too young will not get that the situation is inappropriate. A child much older, depends upon the maturity of the child and the discussions that can take place.

Again, I’m not the one that suggested that the OP NOT visit his inlaws all together. I do think staying at a hotel is the best way to go, no need to expose the children to the living arrangements at this point in time. We as Catholics believe cohabitation is wrong, trying to teach your children that and then acting as if its no big deal when visiting family or friends that do cohabitate is sending a mixed message, especially when kids are young and impressionable. An older child could probably handle the situation better, a mature discussion could take place between child and parent. But young kids, they won’t get, all you’re teaching your child to do is disregard what you say by exposing them to the exact situation you’ve told them is wrong and pretending its acceptable. THAT is causing scandal, the exact teachings in the link I provided earlier which as Catholics we are required to believe.

As far as the pregnancy goes, there are ways to handle that situation more appropriately when visiting. All the information that the children would need to know is that a miracle is happening. But trying to explain why cousin so and so is sleeping in the same bedroom as his girlfriend, that’s a situation that can not be explained away properly no matter how much a Catholic parent could try.

 

[Demetra2]

“We won’t be coming to visit you, but you are welcome to come see us, just leave the sinners at home” does not sound like a philosophy that the Jesus that I was taught about as a kid would endorse.

Besides, the pregnant woman is carrying the OP’s wife’s niece or nephew. She may want to be able to have a relationship with this child.

This tone is really unfair and uncharitable to the OP. He never said that he wanted to avoid his in-law’s , in fact he stated the opposite. His whole reason for writing to a Catholic forum because he hoped to get Catholic advice from people who know what the Church believes. His children are first and foremost his responsibility. You are so concerned for the brother-in-law and his pregnant girlfriend who by the way are threatening to not let the granparents see the grandchild if they do not let them live in their house. That is really immature and manipulative. I can see why he wants tp protect his kids from him at this time. As I said before there is no way that any of us can live in a bubble anymore. Our culture is very toxic and the only “bubble” that I see are the ones bubbling up from the bottom of the cesspool that is our culture. To the OP -Protect the kids while being as kind and charitable to the disobedient brother-in-law and his child. THAT is the message to send to kids. If your in-laws have any compassion for your kids they would insist on it.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

My concern is not for things that are brought out into the light of day and discussed. You can’t do that with very young children, so to me, it is a no-brainer to protect them until you can pour enough of the right stuff into them so that the junk will make little lasting impression.

My deeper concern is that children pick up the underlying ATTITUDES of people they are exposed to at early ages. Someone’s morals and ethics or lack thereof are easily “caught” without much outward teaching, especially from someone as influential in a child’s life as a grandparent can be. Little things like hearing a grandparent say, “Oh, I just got $5 in change extra back from the cashier! Let’s go have an ice cream courtesy of the store!” will make a huge impression if that child isn’t old enough to know better. Even if he/she does know better, it will be a real dilemma to remind a loved authority figure that stealing is wrong. And in the context of any ordinary day out with the grandparents there could be many such events, some of which would be so slight or subtle that the child would have no defense for them.

These types of events can help undermine the parents’ faithful training of the child’s conscience. And maybe the parents will never even know why their child seems to have the ability to rationalize lying, stealing, cheating, when all along, Grandpa or Grandma has been implanting little seeds in the child’s mind. Yes, it’s evil and yes, it happens a lot. THAT is what I would be sheltering the child against.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

This tone is really unfair and uncharitable to the OP. He never said that he wanted to avoid his in-law’s , in fact he stated the opposite. His whole reason for writing to a Catholic forum because he hoped to get Catholic advice from people who know what the Church believes. His children are first and foremost his responsibility. You are so concerned for the brother-in-law and his pregnant girlfriend who by the way are threatening to not let the granparents see the grandchild if they do not let them live in their house. That is really immature and manipulative. I can see why he wants tp protect his kids from him at this time. As I said before there is no way that any of us can live in a bubble anymore. Our culture is very toxic and the only “bubble” that I see are the ones bubbling up from the bottom of the cesspool that is our culture. To the OP -Protect the kids while being as kind and charitable to the disobedient brother-in-law and his child. THAT is the message to send to kids. If your in-laws have any compassion for your kids they would insist on it.

That was not directed at the OP. It was directed at the person who suggested having the parents come visit them and to not even allow them to bring the BIL and his girlfriend.

 

[Demetra2]

I wasn’t advocating for sheltering kids forever. But a parent does have the responsibility to not expose them to situations that are inappropriate before the child is old enough to process the situation properly. I’m not a fan for sheltering kids either, my parents also did the same. But I’m not a fan of anything goes and let’s just let kids deal with life and adult situations before they may need to. There should be a balance, it shouldn’t be all or nothing.

If I’m at Thanksgiving and my alcoholic uncle is well on his well to a full blown out drunk session and my child is say, only 5 or 6, I’m leaving the Thanksgiving celebration, I’m not exposing my child to an inappropriate sinful situation. But if my child is much older, I might handle the situation very differently, and I’d definitely be having a discussion with him/her. Same with cohabitating, a child too young will not get that the situation is inappropriate. A child much older, depends upon the maturity of the child and the discussions that can take place.

Again, I’m not the one that suggested that the OP NOT visit his inlaws all together. I do think staying at a hotel is the best way to go, no need to expose the children to the living arrangements at this point in time. We as Catholics believe cohabitation is wrong, trying to teach your children that and then acting as if its no big deal when visiting family or friends that do cohabitate is sending a mixed message, especially when kids are young and impressionable. An older child could probably handle the situation better, a mature discussion could take place between child and parent. But young kids, they won’t get, all you’re teaching your child to do is disregard what you say by exposing them to the exact situation you’ve told them is wrong and pretending its acceptable. THAT is causing scandal, the exact teachings in the link I provided earlier which as Catholics we are required to believe.

As far as the pregnancy goes, there are ways to handle that situation more appropriately when visiting. All the information that the children would need to know is that a miracle is happening. But trying to explain why cousin so and so is sleeping in the same bedroom as his girlfriend, that’s a situation that can not be explained away properly no matter how much a Catholic parent could try.

This!

 

[vsedriver]

Unless you raise your children in a basement with no internet and no television and no friends and no movies except those intended for toddlers they are going to encounter the culture at large. I’m not a parent, but it seems to me the solution is to innoculate your children from the poisons of the world, not make them live in a bubble their whole lives so they are never exposed to an offensive particle

 

[BenedictFTW]

Cohabiting is the way of things in England, where I lived for nearly 40 years. When I was raising my children, I had to acknowledge that ‘most people do it nowadays’. However, I taught my children that there is a right way and a wrong way; that the world will tell you one thing when God says something entirely different. I brought my children up to fear God and to be aware that He knows every thought, word and deed.

We watched TV together and I would point out when ‘bad’ messages were coming across. We would decide, as a family, to switch off, nine times out of ten. Today, my grown children hardly ever watch TV and, when they do, I can sit back and enjoy their awareness of falsehood and misrepresentation.

We live in an evil world. The only way to protect your children is to be alert to when they are picking things up and - using your good judgement - tell them the truth. Teaching them what our Church teaches is a great protection. Teaching them prayers, such as the St Michael prayer, the Rosary and the Divine Mercy is helping them to 'Put on the armour of God", as St Paul tells us.

It is heartbreaking when you have innocent children exposed to the wickedness of grown-ups, but they are here and best just get on with the job of raising them.

Speak to their grandparents; express your worry about the present situation and ask for their advice. Do all you can for the peace within the family. Your children need to learn how to meet with disagreement in their own lives and to deal with it peaceably. God bless

 

[deSalingAway]

I imagine a few may be waiting for me to weigh in on the debate.

There is a difference between visiting the house during the day, and staying overnight while grave sin is quite possibly taking place and my children see their uncle and GF enter the bedroom together. Sitting on the couch having a conversation during daylight hours is not sinful in and of itself, and causes no scandal. Staying at a hotel or other family member’s home is a viable option.

If my BIL and his GF want to visit us, that is fine too, but they will stay in separate rooms, thus eliminating any scandal.

There is a time and a place for children to learn about such things. A parent acts foolishly by letting their children be exposed to all worldly things at a young age. Would you let them watch Basic Instinct at 5 years old? Of course not.

As for the “gay friend” comment, saying “hi”, and inviting homosexual neighbors over for a bbq is far different than sleeping in the same house with them. At the bbq, you don’t have to tell your children that they’re gay. Spending the night, there will be questions. Of course, loving someone as Christ would doesn’t mean you have to invite them into your home. Those are friendships I would have for a while to figure out if they know how to act like polite human beings, or if they spout off wildly inappropriate sexual remarks to which no-one should be exposed. (For the record, I wouldn’t let straight people making such remarks around my children either.)

Thanks all for your advice and discussion. I find it greatly helpful.

 

[SouthCatholic]

Again, my wife and I are obedient Catholics. We don’t pick and choose what parts of Catholic teaching we wish to follow, as we wish to follow all of it.

I know in my heart what I want, but I guess I am looking for a statement of teaching of the Catholic Church to help articulate my position or correct it if my position is errant.

Considering this forum is called “Catholic Answers”, I thought I’d find actual Catholic answers, not worldly answers under the guise of Catholicism.

As for the cohabitation debate, Catholic teaching is clear and steadfast. There are plenty of Catholic resources and I assume you (BEL) know the teaching of the Church, but have chosen to follow your own path. I don’t know what there is to debate seeing as how cohabitation by a romantically involved, unmarried couple with a sexual relationship is objectively disordered (as is any sexual relationship by any unmarried couple). There would be nothing to debate.

I’m not at all trying to be offensive, nor am I judging (which would be to say you’re going to hell for your actions, which I am not at all in any position to make that assertion). I am simply stating that your (name removed by moderator)ut is not productive in this conversation and is counter to the information for which I seek.

Thank you for taking the time to reply and give your advice. I know you meant well in doing so. God bless you and have a wonderful day!

The horse is already out of the barn so-to-speak. Unless you plan to never allow your kids near your soon-to-be niece or nephew, you are already going to have to have a conversation with them about sexual sin. I don’t see how adding the conversation about cohabitation is really any different.

 

[PatriceA]

The horse is already out of the barn so-to-speak. Unless you plan to never allow your kids near your soon-to-be niece or nephew, you are already going to have to have a conversation with them about sexual sin. I don’t see how adding the conversation about cohabitation is really any different.

The horse might be out of the barn so to speak for the OP’s relatives, but not necessarily so for the OP’s children. I certainly hope the conversation between the OP and his children about sexual sin was going to happen regardless of this situation. The reason it might be different is that they may not be at the appropriate age to have that conversation. Just because a situation is happening currently in a family does not mean the children have to be subjected to it if they are not age appropriate.

 

[pinetree]

I am jumping into this discussion very late, but would like to add one observation. I have 13 kids and tried this approach (not exposing kids to cohabiting couples, not visiting them in their homes, etc.) the whole time we raised them. Now, so far 6 of my kids have cohabited and 3 still are.

Protecting them from outside error is not enough. We must innoculate them with information about the meaning of the body, of love, of marriage, etc. And surround them with our love. JP2’s theology of the body is something that needs to be brought to kids at an early age. I didn’t understand it when the kids were growing up. Talk to your kids, even when they are little. Help them understand the sacredness of the body, of marriage. It will protect them against child abusers now, on dates when they are older, in college when they go out on their own, and when they find a potential spouse some day.

Children today need to have the wherewithall to understand their faith and its moral teachings, so they can be strong within. There is no protecting them from what is out there. You would have to live in a community like the Amish do to achieve that today. (Not a bad idea, but probably not what most of us can achieve.) They will be exposed to the garbage from their little friends sooner than we imagine.