Cohabitation is fornication

[truelove_88]

This is an assumption and you know what assuming does.

How can you say that if someone is co-habitating there is a sexual relationship going on? How can you make that blanket statement. That is very judgemental and very wrong!

co·hab·it /koʊˈhæbɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[koh-hab-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)

1. to live together as husband and wife, usually without legal or religious sanction.
2. to live together in an intimate relationship.
3. to dwell with another or share the same place, as different species of animals.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

co·hab·it /koʊˈhæbɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[koh-hab-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)

1. to live together as husband and wife, usually without legal or religious sanction.
2. to live together in an intimate relationship.
3. to dwell with another or share the same place, as different species of animals.

So according to this definition that you pulled and according to YOU everytime some one is co habitating they are having sex?

 

[Hellisreal]

TrueLove 88,

While I am sure you sincerely believe that your position is correct and have good intentions behind taking your position, I strongly disagree with your statements.
You said:
I was a little too over zealous about the siblings situation so let me clarify. Living together just to make ends meet, or to help with rent, or because you need a roommate, that is really not a necessity for a brother and sister to live together outside of the family life, it would be improper and and could potentially lead to immodesty, temptation and sin. It could be very easily mistaken for something it is not, such as co-habitation because people do not know thats your sibling.

Where is this written? I don’t follow the gospel according to TrueLove88.
And if you think this is a response that is any less zealous—

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I will say, however, I was a little too over zealous about the siblings situation so let me clarify. Living together just to make ends meet, or to help with rent, or because you need a roommate, that is really not a necessity for a brother and sister to live together outside of the family life, it would be improper and and could potentially lead to immodesty, temptation and sin. It could be very easily mistaken for something it is not, such as co-habitation because people do not know thats your sibling.

Okay, your insistence on this is really starting to make me wonder what kind of family you grew up in, and whether you have issues you’re not sharing with us.

Do not presume to know what financial issues others have that would make them live together outside family life. And by the way, if I’m living with a brother or a sister, that IS family life! And a testimony to wonderful parents who raised us to still like our siblings long after we weren’t forced by necessity to live with them.

We are not responsible for the erroneous assumptions of others. If I were living with a brother, or if my two unmarried sisters were living together, rather than let someone think they were sinners or gay, they would quickly introduce each other to neighbors and there would be no doubt and no reason for neighbors to gossip.

You are presenting your own moral opinions here and acting as if they are Catholic teaching. I want to clarify that for other readers. There is a difference between your private interpretation and the guidelines a priest would give. I know some priests who retire and live with their sisters or brothers. They would not agree with you that they are causing scandal.

 

[truelove_88]

This is an assumption and you know what assuming does.

How can you say that if someone is co-habitating there is a sexual relationship going on? How can you make that blanket statement. That is very judgemental and very wrong!

Did you read the dictionary term of co-habitating?

Okay, your insistence on this
is really starting to make me wonder what kind of family you grew up in, and whether you have issues you’re not sharing with us.

I had a wonderful family life thank you, and just because I am on here does not mean I have to share every time sneezed in my entire life, does it?

Do not presume to know what financial issues others have that would make them live together outside family life. And by the way, if I’m living with a brother or a sister, that IS family life! And a testimony to wonderful parents who raised us to still like our siblings long after we weren’t forced by necessity to live with them.

Money is not a very good reason for people to sin, yet it happens too often, and yes IF you were to live with a brother or sister that would be family life, I clarified myself on that issue. If I correct myself than I do, I know that more often than not I need to clarify myself, I am a convert still learning, so patience is a virtue.

We are not responsible for the erroneous assumptions of others. If I were living with a brother, or if my two unmarried sisters were living together, rather than let someone think they were sinners or gay, they would quickly introduce each other to neighbors and there would be no doubt and no reason for neighbors to gossip.

Yes we are culpable, if we are not leading by Christian example.
That’s wonderful if everyone thought to introduce themselves to the neighbors so promptly, how many neighbors would make themselves available for this though?

You are presenting your own moral opinions here and acting as if they are Catholic teaching. I want to clarify that for other readers. There is a difference between your private interpretation and the guidelines a priest would give. I know some priests who retire and live with their sisters or brothers. They would not agree with you that they are causing scandal.

I am representing a certain amount of my own opinions yes, so is everyone else, that’s why we are here right? you don’t have to believe what I am saying, but I am saying it because I know it to be true. I don’t believe in private interpretation I am not a protestant, and again my entire topic was on co-habitation, not living arrangements. This is a gray area, for some siblings it would be acceptable for others it would not. It is no more wrong of me to say that it should be avoided than it is of you to say it shouldn’t.
I am simply stating the fact that it would be improper and could potentially lead to scandal.
Thank you for your thoughts though.
God bless

 

[truelove_88]

TrueLove 88,

While I am sure you sincerely believe that your position is correct and have good intentions behind taking your position, I strongly disagree with your statements.
You said:
I was a little too over zealous about the siblings situation so let me clarify. Living together just to make ends meet, or to help with rent, or because you need a roommate, that is really not a necessity for a brother and sister to live together outside of the family life, it would be improper and and could potentially lead to immodesty, temptation and sin. It could be very easily mistaken for something it is not, such as co-habitation because people do not know thats your sibling.

Where is this written? I don’t follow the gospel according to TrueLove88.
And if you think this is a response that is any less zealous—

Here is a very good reply, where in scripture does it say that a brother and sister, singular not plural, should live together alone? last I read it was Martha Mary and there brother, not just Martha and her brother. Which makes me think that even in biblical times they had a sense of propriety with those matters. I do not claim to be a source of all knowing information, but what I do know I will post, If I am incorrect I will correct myself, as I have already done numerous times. As for zealousness it is something to both be loved and taken with a grain of salt, often giving into it will lead to rash thinking and improper use of terminology both of which I corrected myself over. Used properly it can sway the hearts of men.
Now is this a type of forum that does not accept when someone has realized they were incorrect, and acknowledged it? If not then why is it Catholic forum and why do so many claim to be Catholic?

 

[bilop]

I share expenses with a person of the same gender. This is the only way to afford an apartment these days, unless you are fabulously wealthy. I don’t give a darn whether anyone thinks I am homosexual. It doesn’t bother me. I wouldn’t care if my roommate actually was homosexual.

I was being extreme to show the fallacy of the argument about siblings living together being a sin.

I too have had roomates in the past.

God Bless

 

[truelove_88]

So according to this definition that you pulled and according to YOU everytime some one is co habitating they are having sex?

According to the correct terminology of Co-habitating yes, and it is not just my beilief it is the Catholic churches. They do not tell us to co-habitat as brother and sister they tell us to live as brother and sister.
If you would like the site I can get the url for you?

reference.com/browse/all/cohabitation

 

[truelove_88]

I was being extreme to show the fallacy of the argument about siblings living together being a sin.

I too have had roomates in the past.

God Bless

It is not a fallacy, It is simply stating that it is **Improper ** to live with a sibling of the opposite sex, key word opposite sex.

 

[jrabs]

It is not a fallacy, It is simply stating that it is **Improper **to live with a sibling of the opposite sex, key word opposite sex.

Are you kidding me? I assure you, the years I spent living with my sibling of the opposite sex - nothing was ever improper. I shudder to think anything different.

Where on earth did you ever come up with this?

Ugh. :whacky:

 

[truelove_88]

Are you kidding me? I assure you, the years I spent living with my sibling of the opposite sex - nothing was ever improper. I shudder to think anything different.

Where on earth did you ever come up with this?

Ugh. :whacky:

I did not say it would be co-habitation, do you people ever read previous posts, I have already corrected myself. I said it would be improper and could potentially lead to scandal and yes it could. I also said it was a** case by case basis** i.e family life is horrible, they got kicked out of home, they were being abused, and etc. Such as it is some might not find it comfortable to live with a sibling of the opposite sex because of lifestyles, they drink or party, or they have there buddies spend the night, or what have you, those would be very improper situations. I realize that this is a gray area, not talked about in the CCC or canon law, but it is advised against by many priests because of the irregularity of it.

 

[truelove_88]

Fornication requires actual sexual conduct, so if there is no sex, there is no sin.

The sin of scandal can occur if the perception is that the roomates are fornicating. Given this, I can’t see siblings co-habiting as giving scandal. Almost no one would assume they are engaged in sexual relations. If you are going to stretch that far, you’d have to say that having a roomate at all (even of the same sex) is scandalous, b/c people could assume they are homosexuals.

Cohabiting with friends could be scandalous depending on the context. If it is a larger group, 3+, and the people are young, college or shortly after, most people would not assume a sexual relationship. If it is just two people, and they appear to be very close, it probably would give scandal.

God Bless

Dictionary Entries (2 more entries. View all »)
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
co·hab·it /koʊˈhæbɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[koh-hab-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)

1. to live together as husband and wife, usually without legal or religious sanction.
2. to live together in an intimate relationship.
3. to dwell with another or share the same place, as different species of animals.
   [Origin: 1520–30; < LL cohabitāre, equiv. to co- co- + habitāre to have possession, abide (freq. of habére to have, own)]

—Related forms
co·hab·it·ant, co·hab·it·er, noun
co·hab·i·ta·tion, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Thesaurus Entries
Roget’s New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source
Main Entry: sexual intercourse
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: making love
Synonyms: cohabitation, coitus, consummation, copula, going to bed with, sex, sexual commerce, sexual congress, sexual relations, sleeping with
Source: Roget’s New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2007 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source

Main Entry: sexual relations
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: having sex
Synonyms: carnal knowledge, cohabitation, coitus, copulation, intercourse, intimacy, lovemaking, marital relations, mating, nookie, relations, screwing, sexual intercourse, sexual union, sleeping together, sleeping with

 

[rayne89]

I did not say it would be co-habitation, do you people ever read previous posts, I have already corrected myself. I said it would be improper and could potentially lead to scandal and yes it could. I also said it was a** case by case basis** i.e family life is horrible, they got kicked out of home, they were being abused, and etc. Such as it is some might not find it comfortable to live with a sibling of the opposite sex because of lifestyles, they drink or party, or they have there buddies spend the night, or what have you, those would be very improper situations. I realize that this is a gray area, not talked about in the CCC or canon law, but it is advised against by many priests because of the irregularity of it.

TrueLove88 you’ve had “many priests” advise against brothers and sisters living together? Was this a question you asked them? Did you here several priests say this in a homily? I’m wondering because in all my years as a Catholic I have never heard a priest address the issue of brothers and sisters living together. I do go to a very traditional parish where birthcontrol, abortion, same-sex marriage, fornication are brought up regularly as well as frequent need of confession. I’ve never heard a priest bring up this subject so I’m rather surprised you’ve heard this many times.

 

[Hellisreal]

Are you implying I am falsely calling myself a Catholic?

I hope not, I would appreciate some clarification on this please. ASAP.

Here is a very good reply, where in scripture does it say that a brother and sister, singular not plural, should live together alone? last I read it was Martha Mary and there brother, not just Martha and her brother. Which makes me think that even in biblical times they had a sense of propriety with those matters. I do not claim to be a source of all knowing information, but what I do know I will post, If I am incorrect I will correct myself, as I have already done numerous times. As for zealousness it is something to both be loved and taken with a grain of salt, often giving into it will lead to rash thinking and improper use of terminology both of which I corrected myself over. Used properly it can sway the hearts of men.
Now is this a type of forum that does not accept when someone has realized they were incorrect, and acknowledged it? If not then why is it Catholic forum and why do so many claim to be Catholic?

 

[truelove_88]

From the other thread:

True Love,

I think that a lot of us are saying to you is that to equate
fornicaton with co habitation is not correct. While, I believe, you will find that most of those on this forum will agree that we are not to co-habitate before marriage, there are circumstances that the Church says it is okay and these are on a case by case basis. But you must bear in mind that they must live as brother and sister.

I was stating that to co-habitat is to fornicate, yes people have a different understanding of the word now, but the church does not. Very clearly the Church states that co-habitation is a mortal sin.

If you say that a brother and sister are not to share an apartment together then you need to provide some Church teaching that supports this statement. Simply hearing it from one priest will not justify this. I have read a lot on the Church’s teachings on moral theology and have yet to see that a brother and sister cannot live together.

I have already made myself abundantly clear on this subject, I corrected myself and moved on. Now are you telling me, that if I were to simply hear this was improper and should be avoided; from a priest who is as Catholic as Fr. Groeschel, that I should just simply ignore it because it is just one priest? is this correct or did I misunderstand that bold statement?

Again, to live with a member of the opposite sex, say a fiance to save up money for a house, for financial reasons is not a valid reason and the Church does not agree that this is acceptable. If it is a case where it cannot be avoided, they are to live as brother and sister. Brothers and sisters do not have sex. They are living a in a morally acceptable way.

The church would never look at this as an exemption to the rule. There case by case basis is when children are involved not just because funds are tight. There is always an alternative to sin always!

Please realize that you cannot make a bold statement that “no one of the opposite sex can live together or they will be in a state of mortal sin” and not have some documented proof for it.

If they are co-habitating then they are sinning. Plain and simple.
Just as it would be no more proper or modest for a single man and a single woman, who are not related to room/live together in a unmarried state. fallen human nature is just that fallen.

That would be like me saying that a priest told me that “Ah use artificial birth control since you cannot afford another baby right now.” Would that make it right? ABC is against what the Church teaches, but a priest says that it is ok? What if a priest says that you cannot drink alcohol? Should you not have a glass of wine? Does that put you in a state of mortal sin because a priests says so? The Catholic Church does not teach that.

Did I talk about ABC, no I did not, and I know that ABC goes against the moral order and law of God and is sinful. This is like comparing apples to oranges, I am talking about co-habitation which is sinful period.

That paragraph was used to make a point here. You cannot say that this is a mortal sin without support (other than a priest told you).

The support is the teaching of Holy Mother Church,
If they are Co-habitating they are sinning. The permit-ability is determined on a case by case basis as to whether or not it should be acceptable for a particular couple. i.e if they already have kids together, are in a civil union or waiting to have there marriage blessed in the Catholic faith, then they must live as brother and sister.

 

[Hellisreal]

TL 88 says she is a family services worker in the profile.

This may explain some of the comments being made here.

Or not- I am speculating.

TrueLove88 you’ve had “many priests” advise against brothers and sisters living together? Was this a question you asked them? Did you here several priests say this in a homily? I’m wondering because in all my years as a Catholic I have never heard a priest address the issue of brothers and sisters living together. I do go to a very traditional parish where birthcontrol, abortion, same-sex marriage, fornication are brought up regularly as well as frequent need of confession. I’ve never heard a priest bring up this subject so I’m rather surprised you’ve heard this many times.

 

[Hellisreal]

You do realize the Church never has told its members to rely on ONE Priest that IN YOUR OPINION is orthodox in his teachings to make ANY binding statements on the faithful.

Um, kinda why we have a magesterium…

I have already made myself abundantly clear on this subject, I corrected myself and moved on. Now are you telling me, that if I were to simply hear this was improper and should be avoided; from a priest who is as Catholic as Fr. Groeschel, that I should just simply ignore it because it is just one priest? is this correct or did I misunderstand that bold statement?

I cant believe your comments about a brother and sister living together, or your desire to not provide any support for this position (no- your priest does NOT count either! )

 

[truelove_88]

TrueLove88 you’ve had “many priests” advise against brothers and sisters living together? Was this a question you asked them? Did you here several priests say this in a homily? I’m wondering because in all my years as a Catholic I have never heard a priest address the issue of brothers and sisters living together. I do go to a very traditional parish where birthcontrol, abortion, same-sex marriage, fornication are brought up regularly as well as frequent need of confession. I’ve never heard a priest bring up this subject so I’m rather surprised you’ve heard this many times.

Yes, I did ask, and I did calrify myself.
“I have already corrected myself. I said it would be improper and could potentially lead to scandal and yes it could. I also said it was a case by case basis i.e family life is horrible, they got kicked out of home, they were being abused, and etc. Such as it is some might not find it comfortable to live with a sibling of the opposite sex because of lifestyles, they drink or party, or they have there buddies spend the night, or what have you, those would be very improper situations. I realize that this is a gray area, not talked about in the CCC or canon law, but it is advised against by many priests because of the irregularity of it.”

Here I am in no way implying or at least it was not my intent to, that the church finds living with a sibling sinful, in some cases it is improper though.
I am stating this:

1. from personal exp.
   2.from a priests advice
2. from parental advice.
   I hope this helps to decipher my posts a little better.
   God Bless

 

[rayne89]

TrueLove I think you may be feeling a bit “beat up on” on this thread and that certainly was not my intent. I get the sense that you are some what scrupulous in your judgements in some situations. I got the first sense of that when you declared “*Under no circumstance will the Church marry couples who live together or who are co-habitating before they are married, even if they are living as brother and sister.” *When I know from my experiences in my extended family that is simply not true.

I provided you with documentation from the US Conference of Catholic Biships which references Familiaris Consortio written by His Holiness Pope John Paul II that priests are allowed to use their judgements in such cases. You in turned replied with *“Lazy and misinformed Priests in whole are the reason for such dissent and disregard for Catholic teaching, Doctrines and Dogmas. If we as the body of Christ are in union with the Head, ROME, then we would know what her teachings are at all times; however, it seems that we too as a whole are Lazy, misinformed and highly in disbelief of Her teachings. If we do not seek teachers who are in accordance with Holy Mother Church, those who teach black and white, wrong from right, then we are seeking teachers to teach us according to our own lusts and desires, this is WRONG!” *Ignoring the fact that I provided references from the Pope himself saying that these situations are not always black and white.

Then you came out with declaration that *“it would be very immodest and inappropriate to live with an unmarried sibling of the opposite sex”. *While corrected your zeal in this matter you are still insisting that opposite sex siblings living together is improper and could lead to temptation.

Never in the catechism, not in any church document have I read that siblings living together are a cause for scandal, nor have I ever heard a priest make such a remark. Please understand I am not trying to attack you, I’m trying to point out that you are seeing sin where there is none.

Since hellisreal pointed out you are a family service worker you may have come across many cases where that involve sexual abuse or incest, I can understand where that could color your view on this matter. You must know that the majority of siblings would find sexual relations with each other repugnant and hardly a cause for temptation.

The majority of Catholics on this board love the church and take it’s teachings very seriously. I know you are fairly new to the board and may not realize that. It is not healthy for ones spiritual life to be scrupulous which is why I think some on the board have advised you seek a spiritual advisor on this matter.

God Bless.

EDIT: Just so you know I wrote this post before reading your last post.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Dictionary Entries (2 more entries. View all »)
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
co·hab·it /koʊˈhæbɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[koh-hab-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)

1. to live together as husband and wife, usually without legal or religious sanction.
2. to live together in an intimate relationship.
3. to dwell with another or share the same place, as different species of animals.
   [Origin: 1520–30; < LL cohabitāre, equiv. to co- co- + habitāre to have possession, abide (freq. of habére to have, own)]

YOU keep posting this defininition. Have YOU read it in its entirity? YOU are asserting by quoting this that indicates in definition 3 that if one person “dwells” with a sibling of the opposite sex, without any other information, it is wrong, a mortal sin, and that Church teaching is clear on this. Is that really your position?