Cohabitation Question

[fix]

Also, what about seminarians who’s parent(s) are living in marriages that are not sacramental for whatever reason, should they no longer go home to visit when they have a break?

One could have a valid, but not sacramental, marriage and that is not necessarily immoral.

I assume you mean some type of irregular or invalid marriage that is objectively sinful?

 

[fix]

If they were married, baptized Catholics who purposely did not attend mass every Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation would you have the same internal moral dilemma?

I think we need more information before we can understand your point here.

If there were a couple that is Catholic, yet they are lukewarm, while that is wrong it is not equivalent to the public sin of living as man and wife while not married.

I would think staying with the lukewarm couple and attending mass would help reinforce that importance of the Sunday obligation and perhaps offer a chance to talk about these things.

With the unmarried folks would staying there be one more opportunity to be a witness to Christ, in some way, or would it be simply a tacit form of approval?

 

[gmarie21]

I assume you mean some type of irregular or invalid marriage that is objectively sinful?

Yes, that is what I meant.

 

[gmarie21]

I think we need more information before we can understand your point here.

If there were a couple that is Catholic, yet they are lukewarm, while that is wrong it is not equivalent to the public sin of living as man and wife while not married.

I would think staying with the lukewarm couple and attending mass would help reinforce that importance of the Sunday obligation and perhaps offer a chance to talk about these things.

With the unmarried folks would staying there be one more opportunity to be a witness to Christ, in some way, or would it be simply a tacit form of approval?

My point is that according to the teachings of the Church, purposely missing mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation (when you know the Church’s teaching pertaining to these days) without a valid reason is as grave of a sin as having sex outside of marriage. If one chooses to not stay with cohabitating friends because of their public sin, would the same person choose to not stay with friends who purposely chose to not attend mass for no valid reasons? Both are in public states of mortal sin. And if one would stay with non-mass attending friends who chose to not attend on purpose, one would be causing as much scandal because it could be percieved that they condone one’s rebellion of the Church’s teaching.

 

[fix]

My point is that according to the teachings of the Church, purposely missing mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation (when you know the Church’s teaching pertaining to these days) without a valid reason is as grave of a sin as having sex outside of marriage.

I agree both are objectively mortal sins.

If one chooses to not stay with cohabitating friends because of their public sin, would the same person choose to not stay with friends who purposely chose to not attend mass for no valid reasons?

IMO, I would separate things out a bit more. Those who intentionally miss mass are not publicly sinning as those who present themselves as married when they are not. I do not know how anyone would know who is attending which mass on any given Sunday. I do know that most folks can perceive a man and woman living together and acting as if they were married yet no marriage exists.

Both are in public states of mortal sin.

In some sense yes, but the latter one is more visible I would think hence greater scandal.

And if one would stay with non-mass attending friends who chose to not attend on purpose, one would be causing as much scandal because it could be percieved that they condone one’s rebellion of the Church’s teaching.

Again, if it were a Sunday and you went to Church while they stayed home that would be a good way to approach the situation in a nonconfrontational manner i would think.

On the other point when you stay with open fornicators how do you casually bring that up? When is the “witnessing” moment in that scenario?

 

[Daniel_Kane]

It is never an act of charity or love to confirm another in sin. Sure, we all sin, and some sin is more “communal” than others, more public than others.

In this instance, and I have experienced this my self, your presence in their home confirms them in their sin and in a very real sense, communicates your approval.

Sad. And Common.

 

[setter]

My point is that according to the teachings of the Church, purposely missing mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation (when you know the Church’s teaching pertaining to these days) without a valid reason is as grave of a sin as having sex outside of marriage. If one chooses to not stay with cohabitating friends because of their public sin, would the same person choose to not stay with friends who purposely chose to not attend mass for no valid reasons? Both are in public states of mortal sin. And if one would stay with non-mass attending friends who chose to not attend on purpose, one would be causing as much scandal because it could be percieved that they condone one’s rebellion of the Church’s teaching.

I fail to see how the two are commensurate in inducing others to similar sin or confirm others in their sin choices, i.e., the grave sin of scandal. An unmarried cohabitating couple is a phenomenon specific to the wider culture at hand. A Catholic couple not attending mass is a Catholic phenomenon. The unmarried cohabitating Catholic is guilty of fornication and not attending Church. The cohabitating Catholic couple is living an integral lifestyle of sin. Whether one should not stay with a non-mass attending Catholic couple should give us all reason to pause over how much we have become casual with the stench of unrepentant grave sin.

 

[gmarie21]

In this instance, and I have experienced this my self, your presence in their home confirms them in their sin and in a very real sense, communicates your approval.

Yet I live with my mom and step-dad and if it weren’t for my presence, my mom wouldn’t be beginning the annulment process and encouraging my step-father to do the same (his will be easy b/c he didn’t get married in the Church nor did he recieve approval to marry outside of the Church in his first marriage). My mom wouldn’t even be considering her soul and salvation pertaining to her situation if I wasn’t around and in my little ways, encouraging her and teaching her the Truth the Catholic Church teaches. Many are in similar situations with loved ones and to shun the loved one only pushes them further from the Truth of the Church.

 

[setter]

Yet I live with my mom and step-dad and …My mom wouldn’t even be considering her soul and salvation pertaining to her situation if I wasn’t around and in my little ways, encouraging her and teaching her the Truth the Catholic Church teaches.

Your situation is obviously different than that of the OP. Prudence would determine if one risks conveying the message of tacit approval or scnadal to third party observers.

 

[litllulu]

Too many fine lines in this one. I don’t think this is any different than visiting a contracepting married couple. I have mentioned before, I have many Jewish friends, I do not believe my presence in their home makes people believe that I do not accept Jesus Christ. If your friend knows where you stand, I do not see the sin. However, from a practical standpoint, I would see if he could stay at his rents house while you are their for the reasons I mentioned above!

 

[mdgspencer]

I think there may be questionable friendships. The last time I watched Schindlere’s List, I found myself wondering how Oscar Schindler could be such good friends with the concentration camp commandant. Of course, he redeemed himself, but all the same he was good friends before he decided to act.

Too many fine lines in this one. I don’t think this is any different than visiting a contracepting married couple. I have mentioned before, I have many Jewish friends, I do not believe my presence in their home makes people believe that I do not accept Jesus Christ. If your friend knows where you stand, I do not see the sin. However, from a practical standpoint, I would see if he could stay at his rents house while you are their for the reasons I mentioned above!

 

[maryjk]

Too many fine lines in this one. **I don’t think this is any different than visiting a contracepting married couple. ** I have mentioned before, I have many Jewish friends, I do not believe my presence in their home makes people believe that I do not accept Jesus Christ. If your friend knows where you stand, I do not see the sin. However, from a practical standpoint, I would see if he could stay at his rents house while you are their for the reasons I mentioned above!

And you would know they are a “contracepting couple,” how?

 

[litllulu]

And you would know they are a “contracepting couple,” how?

A lot of friends are open about having vasectomies, using the pill etc. They also know I am 100% against it. May I add, some of them are Catholic. I think we need to show people they are loved in spite of their sin.

 

[litllulu]

I think there may be questionable friendships. The last time I watched Schindlere’s List, I found myself wondering how Oscar Schindler could be such good friends with the concentration camp commandant. Of course, he redeemed himself, but all the same he was good friends before he decided to act.

I have said this before, I will say it again. Fr. Groeshell has many Jewish friends, in his opinion, they are more “Christian” than some of the Catholics he knows. Have we become a religion that can no longer be around people who do not share our faith? If you had a family member who was Jewish would you not have them over for the Fourth of July in fear of scandal? IMHO this is what is wrong with the people in the Church. Jesus befriended sinners and in his compassion he saved them. When he saved the woman partaking in adultery he saved her from being stoned. I am sure the Pharisees thought that was scandalous. It was in his mercy on the woman (possibly Mary Magdalene), that she repented and sinned no more. If Jesus would have left the scene to avoid being seen at the place of scandal, the woman would be dead and dead in her sin. It is much greater to love those in sin, than to love those who are Holy.
"

 

[maryjk]

"mdgspencer:

I think there may be questionable friendships. The last time I watched Schindlere’s List, I found myself wondering how Oscar Schindler could be such good friends with the concentration camp commandant. Of course, he redeemed himself, but all the same he was good friends before he decided to act.

I have said this before, I will say it again. Fr. Groeshell has many Jewish friends, in his opinion, they are more “Christian” than some of the Catholics he knows. Have we become a religion that can no longer be around people who do not share our faith? If you had a family member who was Jewish would you not have them over for the Fourth of July in fear of scandal?

Having a friend that is another religion is very different than supporting someone “living in sin.” Being another religion is not cause for scandal. Supporting someone in their sin can be cause for scandal. I think mdgspencer is questioning Schindler being friends with a concentration camp commandant. That has nothing to do with religion, but the slaughter of human beings.

Speaking from experience here, by loving the sinner but hating the sin, you help the sinner come out of the sin. I know this because I lived with my husband and we used contraception. We have been married for 15 years and have not used contraceptives for a number of years.

But it was made known to me, by my Mom, that when we would visit her house before we were married, we would stay in separate bedrooms. And we did. They would not stay at our house. Some of our friends had the same rules. They would still come by and visit, but they would not spend the night. There would also be comments like, “so when are you guys setting the date?” There was never the hard sell, but we knew what they thought.

My parents and our friends did not abandon us. But they did make it clear to us that they didn’t like how we were living.

Now, all of these people have friends that are another religion. None of these “rules” apply to them. My parents will spend the night at the house of someone that is not Catholic. They have married couples in their home that are not Catholic.

 

[litllulu]

The prostitutes and tax collectors will enter Heaven before you.
I think shunning someone is what Jesus warned us against, we are all sinners. If the sin of scandal means that we must lead others into sin, what sin are they leading others to? Assuming that the friend knows she does not advocate shack up relationships.

 

[blessedtoo]

I heard a great homily about this very reading just the other day. The priest was saying that we are not supposed to identify with Jesus in this story but with the sinners. We are the sinners that Jesus dines with. Jesus dines with us because we are in need of healing.
It is not our job to heal others. We may be an agent of the Lord’s healing, but it really is His work. I don’t think there is anything wrong with merely visiting or being friends with someone who is cohabitating (as long as they know you do not approve), but sleeping at their house is another thing altogether. Sleeping over implies approval, implies that you are comfortable enough with their living arrangement to be part of it for at least a night.

ElizabethAnne, I absolutely love this observation by your priest. I do think we forget that Our Lord IS sinless and we are not. By comparing our actions to His, we are falsely elevating ourselves to His same status. While it is right to emulate Christ’s actions, attempting to qualify what we do by quoting what He did simply seems arrogant.

 

[Katie1723]

A lot of friends are open about having vasectomies, using the pill etc. They also know I am 100% against it. May I add, some of them are Catholic. I think we need to show people they are loved in spite of their sin.

Unless we live spotless lives, we are friends with someone “just because”
The other way would be to come up with a checklist of sorts to hand to someone before we “bless” them with our friendship. Just so we can be sure that they are in complete agreement with all our values.

As for me and mine, I prefer to take my chances and give them the benefit of the doubt until they do something that would cause me to question their sincerity.
Kathy

 

[fix]

The prostitutes and tax collectors will enter Heaven before you.
I think shunning someone is what Jesus warned us against, we are all sinners. If the sin of scandal means that we must lead others into sin, what sin are they leading others to? Assuming that the friend knows she does not advocate shack up relationships.

What if failing to stay with them with a charitable explanation was the act needed to make them see they are living unjustly? Would that not be a wonderful act of charity?