Cohabitation

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It is clear that sex outside marriage is a sin and this is never being disputed in my arguments. The issue is what constitutes marriage and what breaks it. All arguments made by me regarding aspects that break a marriage have been ignored or discarded despite Church and Gospel teachings. As if Jesus never said that a man can not send his wife away except in the case of a bad marriage, setting a rule that supports divorce. Does the fact that the Catholic Church is the only major Church that refutes divorce tell us anything? It was an interesting experience for me. Thank you all and may we all Love God and our Neighbour within the spirit of the Life of Jesus
 
The issue is what constitutes marriage and what breaks it. All arguments made by me regarding aspects that break a marriage have been ignored or discarded despite Church and Gospel teachings. As if Jesus never said that a man can not send his wife away except in the case of a bad marriage, setting a rule that supports divorce.
Does that also support re-marriage? Nope.
Does the fact that the Catholic Church is the only major Church that refutes divorce tell us anything?
Sure does. In fact, it tells us several things: the Church doesn’t change true teaching based on societal norms, the Church is the only major Church that is right, that the Church is more concerned with your eternal soul than other churches are.

Peace

Tim
 
It is clear that sex outside marriage is a sin and this is never being disputed in my arguments. The issue is what constitutes marriage and what breaks it. All arguments made by me regarding aspects that break a marriage have been ignored or discarded despite Church and Gospel teachings. As if Jesus never said that a man can not send his wife away except in the case of a bad marriage, setting a rule that supports divorce. Does the fact that the Catholic Church is the only major Church that refutes divorce tell us anything? It was an interesting experience for me. Thank you all and may we all Love God and our Neighbour within the spirit of the Life of Jesus
Nothing breaks a valid consumated sacramental marriage. Nothing. This has been Church teaching since day one. Your interpretation of scripture to say that something does is rejected by the Church - to find out why, I suggest you explore the tracts on this website or some of Jimmy Akins old blog posts, or any other number of sources.

The position that what you where in was not ever a real marriage is possible, however you do not yourself have the authority to declare that it is so. If you believe it to be so, then start the process of having the people who do have the authority check it out. You are considered married until they, not you, decide it is otherwise.

And finally, cohabitation would be wrong even if your marriage were invalid, because you are still not married to this woman. And the only way for a Catholic to validly marry is inside the Church. Which can’t happen while the Church considers you married. So the answer is still the same - even if you were right about your marriage (you aren’t), sex outside of marriage is still wrong, and so you still can’t do it.

Again, no wiggle room whatsoever.
 
It is clear that sex outside marriage is a sin and this is never being disputed in my arguments. The issue is what constitutes marriage and what breaks it. All arguments made by me regarding aspects that break a marriage have been ignored or discarded despite Church and Gospel teachings. As if Jesus never said that a man can not send his wife away except in the case of a bad marriage, setting a rule that supports divorce. Does the fact that the Catholic Church is the only major Church that refutes divorce tell us anything? It was an interesting experience for me. Thank you all and may we all Love God and our Neighbour within the spirit of the Life of Jesus
You are trying to justify your wrong actions. Stop doing so. Man up, and accept the clear teachings of God through His Church. Sex outside marriage is SINFUL. End. Of. Story. And you aren’t married to your current girlfriend.
 
From the newspaper…The bishops have made it clear that cohabiting people cannot receive Holy Communion but the debate also has a grey shade

Fr George, a renouned Biblisicist, may have created controversy by saying he could not deny Holy Communion to a cohabiting woman but his words echoed similar sentiments by a senior cardinal on divorced Catholics last year.

The former Archbishop of Milan and veteran Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini had urged the Church to find solutions for admitting divorced Catholics who remarried to the sacraments.
His thoughts were published last year in the book We’re All In The Same Boat, a compilation of dialogues between him and Fr Luigi Maria Verzé, founder of the San Raffaele University and Hospital in Milan.

Cardinal Martini also made it clear he was not talking about all divorced Catholics because the Church “must not favour flimsiness and superficiality but rather promote fidelity and perseverance”.

In many ways, what Fr George said two weeks ago has semblance to the words of Cardinal Martini, only the subject was not divorce but cohabitation.

Fr George was answering a question about a woman’s particular case when he uttered the controversial words: “I would be abusing my power were I not to administer Holy Communion.”

Subsequently, Fr George also drew a distinction between the different reasons that led people to cohabit and insisted he could not condemn a married woman who was abandoned with three children and who found meaning and love in a new relationship.
Faith was a personal relationship with God, he added, and people had their conscience.
Father John joined the debate saying that he refrained from putting cohabiting couples all in the same basket insisting there was no such thing as a “cohabiting people”. “My experience tells me there is a unique individual with her particular history in a unique relationship with another individual, who is also a unique person with a particular history, and their unfathomable personal and joint journey of faith with yet another person, God!”
The personal touch in dealing with cohabiting people was also raised by Fr Paul, senior lecturer at the University’s Faculty of Theology, who said prohibition was “certainly not the right way to engage” with these couples.

“Nothing replaces the personal pastoral encounter either in the confessional or in a counseling setting,” Fr Paul said.

However, he did point out that prohibition to receive Holy Communion was based on two arguments: upholding the moral teaching and reducing scandal.

“The difficulties arise with couples who presumably live a life like married people without actually being married. According to Christian morality, sexual activity is licit only between married couples. Engaging in sexual relationships before or outside marriage goes against the sixth commandment, if not against the ninth,” Fr Paul said.
His concern was also about scandal and the Church being perceived as condoning cohabitation if it administered Holy Communion.

“If the couple is known to be living in an irregular state this could create problems of a pastoral nature by setting a bad example or scandal to those who know them,” he said.
He insisted it could also be interpreted as “open defiance” of Christian morality and the priest who, “knowingly or unknowingly, gives them Holy Communion could be interpreted as approving of their behavior”.

Fr Paul did call for a different approach, “imbued with understanding and love” to engage with those cohabiting and help them reach a solution that respects both moral law and their conscience.

“People who understand the reasons behind the prohibition rather than feel offended often feel challenged to do something about their situation and try to change as much as it is possible,” he said.

The moral dilemma was also posited by sociologist Fr Joe, who widened the discussion beyond cohabitation, which he described as a “loaded word”.

“Is it correct for a Catholic who is having extramarital sexual relations to receive Holy Communion? Our bishops have given a clear reply. In my view, when anyone appeals to his conscience, one cannot avoid giving very serious consideration to the teaching of the bishops,” Fr Inguanez said.

“I think the best way of dealing with people on any matter, but more so in questions of conscience, is through a loving search for truth. The avoidance of truth on the part of either saints or sinners is a way of blocking communication with God and men,” .

The Church’s stand on cohabiting couples and their eligibility for Holy Communion is bound to remain a bone of moral contention inside the walls of religious officialdom as much as for the flock of people outside those walls.

However, according to Fr John, a myriad of issues from the civil regulation of cohabitation to matters of faith and intimate processes are being stitched together, confusing the arguments at stake.

“They are being put in the same electric mixer and from this only something very indigestible can come out,” he said.

It is possibly the aftereffect of eating the indigestible that has led to Fr George’s words being lost in translation.

What they said

Fr George

“The Eucharist is not mine. I would be abusing my power were I not to administer Holy Communion. What shall we tell this woman… abandon your children and leave this man? If in her conscience she feels Christ is inviting her to participate in the Eucharist nobody has the right to interfere with her conscience.”

The bishops
“We wish to affirm that everybody – these couples included – is welcome in the Church… however, the Catholic Church reiterates that those couples who live together outside of marriage are not to receive the Eucharist. The Church does not impose this as a form of punishment but, rather, because their way of living is not in conformity with the Sacrament of Christian marriage.”
 
Oh boy! I thought I used to be good at rationalization! You have me beat by a long way!

I have never read or heard of such blatant twisting of what the Gospel and the Church teaches!!

Whenever we are looking for something that supports our desires, we cannot see anything else. So we twist every bit of evidence so that it suits what we want.

You are living in fairyland! The problem is that you have no excuse, because you have decided that you are the one who determines what constitutes sin.

I hope that you receive the Mercy of God, like I did, although at the time I didn’t think that was what it was! It was what I needed, and, after some time, it brought me to my senses. The details do not matter. All that matters is that you open yourself, even just a little crack, to His Grace. Once that happens, you will change, and you will wonder why you had been so stupid as to endanger your immortal soul in that manner.

May God show you his Mercy.
 
dannyseek, I’m really just not clear as to the purpose of this thread. You clearly believe what you believe and that that trumps Church teaching. Why are you here? Hasn’t the Holy Spirit already given you your answers?

Peace

Tim
 
Even that article very clearly says that what you’re doing is against Church teaching, with only one priest saying that he feels that performing his duty is an abuse of his power. There’s a lot of sympathy in there for people in hard situations, but nothing to say that what you’re doing is OK according to Church teaching. This would be because it’s not.

You’re cherry picking, looking for opinions that approve of your actions and accepting them as right. The problem is that you’re going over to dissidents to find this approval. The mere fact that you can find someone who approves of your actions - even if that person be a priest - does not make your actions OK, and you can tell that this person is wrong because he disagrees with the bishops. In news articles “the bishops teach” translates into “the Church teaches” because the news typically doesn’t want to offend dissidents by pointing out that they are in dissent with the faith they claim to hold.

So let me point out once again: according to the Catholic faith, sex with anyone you aren’t married to is gravely wrong. No gray.

Even in the case where there are children there is no gray. The parents may remain together as brother and sister for the good of the children, but the rule still holds. Following the rule may be hard, but the rule is simple.
 
Fr Paul did call for a different approach, “imbued with understanding and love” to engage with those cohabiting and help them reach a solution that respects both moral law and their conscience.

“People who understand the reasons behind the prohibition rather than feel offended often feel challenged to do something about their situation and try to change as much as it is possible,” he said.

The moral dilemma was also posited by sociologist Fr Joe, who widened the discussion beyond cohabitation, which he described as a “loaded word”.

“Is it correct for a Catholic who is having extramarital sexual relations to receive Holy Communion? Our bishops have given a clear reply. In my view, when anyone appeals to his conscience, one cannot avoid giving very serious consideration to the teaching of the bishops,” Fr Inguanez said.

“I think the best way of dealing with people on any matter, but more so in questions of conscience, is through a loving search for truth. The avoidance of truth on the part of either saints or sinners is a way of blocking communication with God and men,” .

The Church’s stand on cohabiting couples and their eligibility for Holy Communion is bound to remain a bone of moral contention inside the walls of religious officialdom as much as for the flock of people outside those walls.

However, according to Fr John, a myriad of issues from the civil regulation of cohabitation to matters of faith and intimate processes are being stitched together, confusing the arguments at stake.

“They are being put in the same electric mixer and from this only something very indigestible can come out,” he said.

It is possibly the aftereffect of eating the indigestible that has led to Fr George’s words being lost in translation.

What they said

Fr George

“The Eucharist is not mine. I would be abusing my power were I not to administer Holy Communion. What shall we tell this woman… abandon your children and leave this man? If in her conscience she feels Christ is inviting her to participate in the Eucharist nobody has the right to interfere with her conscience.”

**The bishops
“We wish to affirm that everybody – these couples included – is welcome in the Church… however, the Catholic Church reiterates that those couples who live together outside of marriage are not to receive the Eucharist. The Church does not impose this as a form of punishment but, rather, because their way of living is not in conformity with the Sacrament of Christian marriage.”/**QUOTE]

The answer to your “question” is right here. The idea that cohabitation in OK for some is just wrong. The bible and church are very clear on this issue. What I took from the information above is that the Church recongnizes there are situations in life that are not ideal and she should help those to resolve a bad situation. I can’t imagine any circumstance where the Church would condone cohabitation.

In all reality I’m a bit offended by your rationalization of this issue. I’m a convert and had to work hard to get my marital situation taken care of to be worthy of the Eucharist. I also know there are some who do take the Eucharist when in fact they are not in a state of grace. That is something they will have to deal with at a much higher level than here.
 
So danny, if I can find a priest who is willing to tell me that killing my best friend when they upset me is okay and doesn’t go against church teaching then according to you, I would be justified or that I can change my conscience to go along with the one priest?

I think your problem is listening to one individual when you should be listening to the whole church. An individual can err. The church being lead by Christ through the Holy Spirit will not err.
 
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