Cohabiting and Church Leadership

[BrushedByAngels]

I don’t know either of you, but based on what you’ve said, I’d at least be concerned about there being both a temptation of sin resulting from the arrangement- either for you or him, as well as an appearance that something may be going on that isn’t giving scandal to others.

Pax and God Bless.

No worries here, there is no temptation what-so-ever! As far as scandal? Who would I give the appearance of scandal to…???

Look at all the catholics in remarriage without annulments. The priest tells them the way to rectify the situation if they were refused an annulment is to live as brothers and sisters (no sexual relations.) Would you consider that scandalous as well

 

[Dan_Daly]

No worries here, there is no temptation what-so-ever! As far as scandal? Who would I give the appearance of scandal to…???

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How do you know there is no temptation on the part of your landlord?

Scandal would be given to anyone who knows you live in the same home as a man you are not married to.

Look at all the catholics in remarriage without annulments. The priest tells them the way to rectify the situation if they were refused an annulment is to live as brothers and sisters (no sexual relations.) Would you consider that scandalous as well /

Absolutely.

1. I know of no one, who is “married” in the secular sense who lives a brothers and sisters. When the folks you know in this situation go out, does the man introduce the woman as his wife? Brothers don’t introduce their sisters as their wives.
2. “remarriage” of someone who doesn’t have an annulment- that is someone is who already MARRIED- is a grave sin.

The proper advice to someone in that situation is to seperate. If a priest is telling a couple who is not married, that they can go ahead pretending they are, he is giving them very bad advice.

Pax.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

How do you know there is no temptation on the part of your landlord?

Scandal would be given to anyone who knows you live in the same home as a man you are not married to.

Absolutely.

1. I know of no one, who is “married” in the secular sense who lives a brothers and sisters. When the folks you know in this situation go out, does the man introduce the woman as his wife? Brothers don’t introduce their sisters as their wives.
2. “remarriage” of someone who doesn’t have an annulment- that is someone is who already MARRIED- is a grave sin.

The proper advice to someone in that situation is to seperate. If a priest is telling a couple who is not married, that they can go ahead pretending they are, he is giving them very bad advice.

Pax.

What would be scandal is having a female landlord and having people like you ‘think’ I was a lesbian. Gasp

I learned very early in life to not worry what others are thinking about you. I know I am not sinning at all, so there are no worries here.

 

[Hopemercy]

What would be scandal is having a female landlord and having people like you ‘think’ I was a lesbian. Gasp

I learned very early in life to not worry what others are thinking about you. I know I am not sinning at all, so there are no worries here.

You are right; there are so many landladies and landlords of course. Must they rent rooms only to… er… same sex?

And must rooming houses be all the same sex tenants then? Even in Victorian times this was not so.

lol…

But the Ops situation is very different indeed. There has to be integrity and purity .

 

[BrushedByAngels]

You are right; there are so many landladies and landlords of course. Must they rent rooms only to… er… same sex?

And must rooming houses be all the same sex tenants then? Even in Victorian times this was not so.

lol…

But the Ops situation is very different indeed. There has to be integrity and purity .

I agree and I should probably start a new thread : Landlord / Rommates of the opposite sex. LOL

 

[Hopemercy]

I agree and I should probably start a new thread : Landlord / Rommates of the opposite sex. LOL

This caught my eye because of a situation here in Ireland. A woman has been refused a medical card ( free medical care etc) although she has lost her job, because she shares her house with a man. They thus call him her partner, and as he is working she gets no help etc,… and the fact that he is gay means nothing to them.

It is the outward appearance that they take as else.
It happened with someone esle and they blanket bombed the social welfare dept with proof of the man’s homosexuality ie membership of clubs etc and won.

It is though to me in these cases a grey area as he is paying half the rent etc.

But in the OPs scenario? We must truly be totally above reproach if we are to lead any way in the Church and be credible. The Corapi affair shows that. How can a leader be believed when he is breaking the Law he teaches?

 

[Dan_Daly]

What would be scandal is having a female landlord and having people like you ‘think’ I was a lesbian. Gasp

I learned very early in life to not worry what others are thinking about you. I know I am not sinning at all, so there are no worries here.

I’m not sure what I’ve said that would give you the impression I’d assume two women living in the same home were lesbians.

“Not worrying what others are thinking” is in many ways a good thing. We must be obedient to God above all others. The world is often trying to pull us away from Him, and not being swayed by peer pressure into living an unChristian life is a very good thing indeee.

However, at the same time, we must indeed be concerned with what others think about us. This is Church teaching. The appearance of our actions to others can lead them to sin, and if we help lead someone to sin, we bear some of the responsibility for that sin.

Say a man and a woman are “boyfriend-girlfriend”. They have seperate places, but sometimes spend the weekend together at one of their residences. This is scandalous. To be sure if they are fornicating, they add on a mortal sin, but even if they are not, they give the appearance that they are and show an abusive and vulgar attitude towards the sacrament of marriage.

You spend the weekends in the same home as an unmarried man. You are not romantically involved with him, but many who have some, but not complete knowledge of the situation may not know that. They may take the fact that you share a home with a man you are not married to, and use it to justify themselves doing likewise- with a person they are romantically involved with.

What happens when either you or him, do find someone you want to discern a marriage vocation with? How do you think that person would feel about the two of you living in the same home?

I do not mean to be harsh or judgemental. You asked me what I thought of your situation, so I told you what I thought. I do know that often times in a male/female relationship the female may very sincerely believe they are “just friends” and be completely unaware of romantic/sexual feelings on the part of the man.

There is also far more to intimacy then sex. This is why I think, even for married couples, it is unwise for either the husband or the wife, to become “close friends” with someone of the opposite sex. It allows for an intellectual intimacy to develop which can detract a good bit from the intimacy of the married couple.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I don’t see how you can feel you know someone well enough to write a recommendation letter about their character and yet feel you can’t ask if he’s married or not.

I’d ask again. And be prepared with your follow up questions. “Bob, I’m concerned that some may assume you are living together without being married. I hope that’s not the case.” I doubt he will lie about it. If they are living together, he’s much more likely to start in with his ‘reasons’ as to why it is OK, that the church law is outdated, his previous wife was awful, etc. etc.

If you find that they are living together, than you should withdraw your recommendation and speak to the pastor of the church where he is an EMHC. Let him know your actions also so he understands the consequences of his decision.

Yeah, your idea about confession and advice is probably what I’m going to do.

To clarify, he asked me in person to write the letter. I agreed. Then he emailed me details about it and his fiance’s name was used for the name of the email account and she now had his surname. It made me stop and think. I wondered if they had gotten married but he is divorced and so I thought it might take longer than that for an annulment, etc. I fear that I sinned by not questioning him at that point (but I didn’t want to involve myself in his personal life).

Anyway, I wrote the letter, perhaps with some willful blindness on my part even though I had no evidence that there was any cohabitation. A couple of weeks later, the first time I saw the couple, I came out and asked them if they had gotten married. They said “no”. I was surprised and mumbled something about noticing the female had changed her surname. The male made some comment that they thought she “might as well”. I was more shocked and should’ve asked what he meant but I didn’t. After that, I spoke to a saintly and (non-gossiping) woman about it. This woman had actually asked me if I’ve seen this guy lately. I told her what I’ve told you all. She was surprised because she had assumed they were married because she was sure that the female had talked about selling her house and moving to the geographic area where the male lives.

Anyway, I like to think the best of people, but I am 99% sure they are living together. I feel duped because he knows the Church’s teachings very well and he asked me to write this letter which was supposed to speak of his moral character. Anyway, it’s not my business what he’s doing except for the fact that I wrote a glowing letter saying he was a good, upstanding Catholic Christian. I just don’t want to hurt him by asking him (if it turns out I’m wrong) and if I’m correct, then I’m not sure if he duped me or if he just thinks he can make his own rules about morality. I will also add that I care about these two people and it breaks my heart if they are doing wrong (but I don’t want to be the one to tell them this).

Thanks for listening and your thoughts on this.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

A fellow church member asked me to write him a letter of recommendation for a church program which would allow him to be involved in leadership in the parish (he’s already a Eucharistic minister). At the time he asked me, I wondered if he and his fiance were living together (I had no evidence but I knew they had taken a trip together and wondered about hotel rooms, etc.). In retrospect, I should’ve told him I need to ask him some questions before writing the letter but I was cowardly and thought I might be wrong about his living situation and his private life isn’t my business. Plus, around that time, I noticed his fiance had signed her name with the guy’s surname and they were sharing an email address, so I reasoned that they must’ve gotten married in a small ceremony.

The whole thing has been nagging at me so the last time I saw them, I came out and asked if they had gotten married. The response was “no” and then I asked about the woman’s surname change and one of them answered something to the effect that they thought she might as well change it. I was shocked and perplexed and didn’t ask any follow up questions. Since then, I was chatting with a mutual friend who told me she assumed they had married because she was pretty sure they are living together.

I am worried that I have committed a sin in writing the letter. I wrote a good letter for him where I spoke well of his spirituality (from what I knew) but if he’s in mortal sin and distributing Communion, then that’s a major problem.

I am debating what to do. I hate thinking the worst about someone but I feel he duped me. I don’t know whether to ask him about things and tell him that I could not have recommended him for the program and then contact the person to whom I wrote the letter. Or whether to just let this go. After all, the priest also wrote him a recommendation letter and somewhere along the way, someone should’ve checked out his living situation. I’m torn up because I feel I’ve done grave wrong in this matter and I know if I ask this guy for clarification, he’ll probably get angry.

If it were me in this situation, I would have a meeting with your Pastor and ask him what you should do.

 

[Hopemercy]

I’m not sure what I’ve said that would give you the impression I’d assume two women living in the same home were lesbians.

“Not worrying what others are thinking” is in many ways a good thing. We must be obedient to God above all others. The world is often trying to pull us away from Him, and not being swayed by peer pressure into living an unChristian life is a very good thing indeee.

However, at the same time, we must indeed be concerned with what others think about us. This is Church teaching. The appearance of our actions to others can lead them to sin, and if we help lead someone to sin, we bear some of the responsibility for that sin.

Say a man and a woman are “boyfriend-girlfriend”. They have seperate places, but sometimes spend the weekend together at one of their residences. This is scandalous. To be sure if they are fornicating, they add on a mortal sin, but even if they are not, they give the appearance that they are and show an abusive and vulgar attitude towards the sacrament of marriage.

You spend the weekends in the same home as an unmarried man. You are not romantically involved with him, but many who have some, but not complete knowledge of the situation may not know that. They may take the fact that you share a home with a man you are not married to, and use it to justify themselves doing likewise- with a person they are romantically involved with.

What happens when either you or him, do find someone you want to discern a marriage vocation with? How do you think that person would feel about the two of you living in the same home?

I do not mean to be harsh or judgemental. You asked me what I thought of your situation, so I told you what I thought. I do know that often times in a male/female relationship the female may very sincerely believe they are “just friends” and be completely unaware of romantic/sexual feelings on the part of the man.

There is also far more to intimacy then sex. This is why I think, even for married couples, it is unwise for either the husband or the wife, to become “close friends” with someone of the opposite sex. It allows for an intellectual intimacy to develop which can detract a good bit from the intimacy of the married couple.

Pax and God Bless.

I don’t think I have ever read anything quite so… words are hard to find.

Friendships are good and pure. To see relationships as you do is deeply revealing of your mind. And besmirches what is innocent and good.

By your ideas, the disciples were very dubious, as are religious. Most of us do not automatically see sex in everything. That seems a very impure way of thinking which I see no justification for in Jesus or in Church teaching… " To the pure all things are pure" and vice versa.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I don’t think I have ever read anything quite so… words are hard to find.

Friendships are good and pure. To see relationships as you do is deeply revealing of your mind. And besmirches what is innocent and good.

By your ideas, the disciples were very dubious, as are religious. Most of us do not automatically see sex in everything. That seems a very impure way of thinking which I see no justification for in Jesus or in Church teaching… " To the pure all things are pure" and vice versa.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I’m saying, and I apologize is the fault is mine for not being clear enough. What did I say about the disciples? Or religious? When did I say I see sex in everything? I tried to make the point that there is much more to relationships other than sex.

To elaborate on what I meant by friendships. I am married. My wife and I have friens who are male and female, single, married, and religious. I spend time with female friends regularly. However, I do not spend time with female friends ALONE with any regularity and that is intentional. Likewise my wife does not spend time with male friends alone with any regularity- again intentionally. We do things with other couples as couples. We have single male friend or single female friends over. I spend time alone with male friends. My wife spends time alone with female friends. Having a close friend of the opposite sex, that you talk about things seperate from your spouse, is an invitation to problems. I am not simply talking about sexual infidelity. I am talking about emotional intimacy.

There is nothing wrong with a man having a woman friend or a woman having a friend who is a woman. However, these relationships are different from friendships with a member of the same sex.

I hope that explains things better.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Newbie2]

How do you know there is no temptation on the part of your landlord?

**Scandal would be given to anyone who knows you live in the same home as a man you are not married to. **

Not necessarily. It’s a landlord-renter situation. Most people, methinks, would get that and not assume anything further.

 

[legaleagle]

You’ve got bigger problems than your letter! You say the priest himself wrote a recommendation? You say this fellow is a EMHC in the parish? So your priest is, possibly knowingly, allowing a sacrilege?

The critical issue is not this letter, although you may wish to send a simple retraction saying you were uncertain of the man’s living status when you wrote it (that’s all you need to say).

The issue is why on earth is this man, not only living in sin, but in deceit by the girlfriend changing her name, an EMHC?!? That is an outrage I would speak to the priest about immediately. Just tell him factually what you know and that’s all, the decision is the priest’s. Then you’ve done your part.

Yep, the priest wrote a letter for him too. It’s a diocesan program for training for church leadership that the guy was applying for so he needed his priest’s recommendation and one other person’s. Complicating matters, we have a new priest now. In the past, some people have made comments to me which insinuate that we have lectors and EMHC’s who are living in sin. So it would appear that this guy (if he is indeed living in sin) is one of many. I don’t know the others and know nothing about their backgrounds so I don’t know what to think but you are right, it’s a sacrilege if this is happening.

I don’t see how you can feel you know someone well enough to write a recommendation letter about their character and yet feel you can’t ask if he’s married or not.

I’d ask again. And be prepared with your follow up questions. “Bob, I’m concerned that some may assume you are living together without being married. I hope that’s not the case.” I doubt he will lie about it. If they are living together, he’s much more likely to start in with his ‘reasons’ as to why it is OK, that the church law is outdated, his previous wife was awful, etc. etc.

If you find that they are living together, than you should withdraw your recommendation and speak to the pastor of the church where he is an EMHC. Let him know your actions also so he understands the consequences of his decision.

As for not knowing him well enough, you are correct. I don’t and I should’ve told him so before agreeing to write the letter but it’s a long story and I agreed to do it and didn’t want to back out after agreeing.

I like your method of telling him I’m concerned and then asking.

Some people on here are saying I don’t know for sure – that’s it’s just gossip, and technically, I do not know and will not know for sure until I hear the guy admit it, and that’s why I’ve been hesitating on doing anything. But, I keep reminding myself, if this were a court of law, it would be an open and shut case.

Thanks, everyone for your comments.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

Not necessarily. It’s a landlord-renter situation. Most people, methinks, would get that and not assume anything further.

I agree. I lived with my male cousin prior to my current situation. We hung out together and went to mass together as well. I am sure in the eyes of some that could have been scandal too For how would theses so called people that Dan speaks of know that he is my cousin