Cohen's re-written "Hallelujah" at Mass?

[Loud-living-dogma]

The traditional melody that we use with the song ‘pange lingua’ on Holy Thursday was from a marching song used by Julius Caesar’s soldiers - with accompanying filthy lyrics.

There is nothing wrong with taking something that has a non-Christian bent - wedding veils and rings, the title Pontifex Maximus or Pontiff, Christmas trees - and giving it a Christian reframing.

Source for Caesar’s soldiers and filthy lyrics?

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Cohen’s Hallelujah does not belong in a Mass, or any type of Christian church. It’s not written as a religious or liturgical piece, and it’s extremely out of place. It’s mind-bogglingly offensive and sickening that some people have such awful liturgical sense.

 

[LisaB]

The moderators have in the past weighed in on the whole Novus Ordo vs OF business, and said using the term on this forum is just fine.

 

[LilyM]

Cohen’s Hallelujah does not belong in a Mass, or any type of Christian church. It’s not written as a religious or liturgical piece, and it’s extremely out of place. It’s mind-bogglingly offensive and sickening that some people have such awful liturgical sense.

Nothing easier. The link below references the song the Pange Lingua is believed to be derived from : "Ecce, Caesar nunc triumphat qui subegit Gallias.”:

Hymnody: “Pange Lingua” [Gregorian Chant]

Dear Readers, “This hymn is one of the most beautiful and renowned in the repertory of Gregorian chant. St. Thomas Aquinas, the Italian scholar-priest, wrote the words in 1263 at the reque…

margopayne.wordpress.com

And page 3 of the link below gives the Latin and English (it’s the middle of the section headed “Urbani”, but if you read the complete lyric on that page you’ll see what I mean. The reference to Nicomedes relates to his alleged homosexual affair with Julius Caesar ):

http://www.romanarmy.net/pdf/Handbook/Members Handbook (Part 7)-Songs and Chants.pdf

 

[Darryl_B]

I had a non-Christian friend get all excited at me that this song was “Biblical”. But then so are Dan Brown novels. No?

 

[Flor]

Martin Luther turned Popular German Drinking Songs of his era into fine hymns. This song, Hallelujah, seems appropriate for Protestants … not us.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Okay, your second source seems amusing but in no way authoritative, and in your first source, all it says is “the rhythm of the pange lingua is said to have come down from a marching song from Caesar’s legions”. Rhythm, not melody. “Is said to have”.
So, do you have any actual sources?

 

[LilyM]

Okay, your second source seems amusing but in no way authoritative, and in your first source, all it says is “the rhythm of the pange lingua is said to have come down from a marching song from Caesar’s legions”. Rhythm, not melody. “Is said to have”.
So, do you have any actual sources?

Yes, it says rhythm. The point remains valid unless you are suggesting that it is only the melody of something like a death metal song or a polka that would make them unsuitable for use in worship?

Let me underline it for you. Sacred music borrows from secular - and vice versa - all the time. Has done from early on too.

Time was when using an organ in church was forbidden, or having women in the choir at Mass (hence male castrati, which were the next best thing). The idea of an organ or a female voice would have been just as shocking then as Leonard Cohen is to you now.

Times change, musical tastes change. Such things are far from set in stone.

 

[exnihilo]

I was joking with my wife that they should sing Elvis’s ‘Hard Headed Woman’ at the Easter Vigil. It has a very Biblical story that recounts the struggles of man since the beginning starting with Adam and Eve. It would fit in great with the readings.

I was joking of course. I’m glad I haven’t shared the joke with anyone else because sadly, in modern Catholic practice, it might become reality.

 

[Wesrock]

People’s comments so far are largely about the appropriateness of Cohen’s and Buckley’s original lyrics, which to my understanding are not the issue here. There was a link earlier in this topic to a girl singing a Christianized version of the song having to do with Christ’s life and sacrifice. This was for Easter, I saw one with Christmas lyrics earlier in the year, too.

Now, as to whether it’s appropriate to use that song and the original melody, I can’t say. Some have pointed out the melody may call the original lyrics to mind even if the Christian lyrics are used. I do think the Christian version is a beautiful sing in itself, but for mass…? I suppose that comes down to the Bishop’s approval.

 

[TheLittleLady]

When this song was used in a kid’s animated movie, “Shrek”, it moved into the zeitgeist as a song suitable for children. That then moves a step further to thinking because it mentions Biblical accounts and says “Hallelujah” that it is somehow a spiritual song.

Thing is, the Biblical accounts in the lyrics are those of illicit sex.

I’ve seen little girls perform this song for talent shows. I cannot comprehend that parents do not find the lyrics inappropriate for kids.

So, now we have made up Christian lyrics to the tune. When your kids hear this song on the radio they are going to want to turn it up. Music gets ideas into our brains in a special way.

Do you want your 8 year old to sing:

Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew ya
She tied you to a kitchen chair
She broke your throne, and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the hallelujah

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

You say I took the name in vain
I don’t even know the name
But if I did, well really, what’s it to you?
There’s a blaze of light in every word
It doesn’t matter which you heard
The holy or the broken hallelujah

 

[straykat]

I’m a musician myself and know that musical notes are obviously neutral. It’s just that there’s already a wealth of riches in the church. Many of us would love to see them and not hear pop music that reminds us of something worse. And if you just like Cohen’s underlying tune, Myriam’s song below almost sounds like the same chord progression. Heh. Almost.

In any case, I’m also not about to slam the “Novus Ordo”. I understand the need to defend this. But my two cents: I think the new changes to services were good and especially made for Christians like her (she’s Chaldean Catholic) and for all of us to simply speak in vernacular.

 

[Phemie]

What about these?

Baby I’ve been here before
I know this room, I’ve walked this floor
I used to live alone before I knew you
I’ve seen your flag on the marble arch
love is not a victory march
it’s a cold and it’s a broken Hallelujah

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah

There was a time you let me know
What’s really going on below
but now you never show it to me, do you?
And remember when I moved in you
the holy dove was moving too
And every breath we drew was Hallelujah!

 

[ProVobis]

Forma Ordinaria was the way it was worded by Pope Benedict; Novus Ordo Missae by Pope Paul.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

You cannot back up your claims. You lose.

 

[ProVobis]

And if you want to assign years it is the 2002 Missal using the 2011 English translation.

 

[horselvr]

I am also a fan of Cohen and so I remember watching him in an interview where he explained the meaning of Hallelujah. He said it is a song of unrequited love. And not a religious song as some think. I think it is not a proper song for Mass even with the words changed.

 

[LilyM]

I am also a fan of Cohen and so I remember watching him in an interview where he explained the meaning of Hallelujah. He said it is a song of unrequited love. And not a religious song as some think. I think it is not a proper song for Mass even with the words changed.

Do you have similar objections to the hymn “Come, Sing A Song of Joy”, which is Beethoven’s Ode to Joy with the lyrics rewritten? The original has some objectionable lyrics

Ode to Joy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[dochawk]

And not a religious song as some think. I think it is not a proper song for Mass even with the words changed.

“songs” aren’t appropriate for liturgical use; “hymns” are.

“Dropkick Me Jesus” by Bobby Bare is a wonderful and pious song, but it’s sure not a hymn . . .

hawk

 

[babochka]

horselvr:

And not a religious song as some think. I think it is not a proper song for Mass even with the words changed.

“songs” aren’t appropriate for liturgical use; “hymns” are.

“Dropkick Me Jesus” by Bobby Bare is a wonderful and pious song, but it’s sure not a hymn . . .

hawk

So how do you differentiate? Seems like a fine line to draw.