Cold in Purgatory

[flower_lady]

I read this book that my priest gave me entitled; Purgatory (explained by the lives and legends of the saints, by Fr. F.X, Schouppe, S.J. and in the eleventh chapter it states that there is a part of Purgatory where you see much fire and ice. This is the part where souls go that during life, have neglected to confess their sins, and who have deferred their conversion to the end. Thanks to a special mercy of God, they managed to repent before death and were saved from Hell’s eternal fire. In all of the yrs. I have gone to catholic school I have never heard of ice and cold in Purgatory by anybody until I read this book. Have you? I must add the whole book scared the daylight out of me. Thank you. Brenda

 

[porthos11]

I read this book that my priest gave me entitled; Purgatory (explained by the lives and legends of the saints, by Fr. F.X, Schouppe, S.J. and in the eleventh chapter it states that there is a part of Purgatory where you see much fire and ice. This is the part where souls go that during life, have neglected to confess their sins, and who have deferred their conversion to the end. Thanks to a special mercy of God, they managed to repent before death and were saved from Hell’s eternal fire. In all of the yrs. I have gone to catholic school I have never heard of ice and cold in Purgatory by anybody until I read this book. Have you? I must add the whole book scared the daylight out of me. Thank you. Brenda

That’s the problem I see with books and writings like these, trying to speculate about the nature of Purgatory and then scare the living daylights out of the faithful. The only things we need to believe about Purgatory are:

1. That those who die in the state of grace, but with unrepented venial sin or incomplete satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to sin go through a purification process but are assured of eternal Bliss; and
2. That this will entail some kind of suffering.

Whether the suffering is fire, ice, or whatever, we do not really know and the Church has not defined. The fire imagery is common because of its association with purification (as in the refining of precious metals) and the fire of God’s love.

The other problem I have with fear-mongering when it comes to Purgatory is that they tend to neglect the fact that in Purgatory, the souls are in a state of grace, and therefore, charity subsists in them. In fact, the assurance of heaven, despite the purification, should mean that even in the suffering, there is joy, perhaps even a greater joy than one has on earth because in Purgatory, there is no worry, no uncertainty. The suffering borne is purely suffering out of love for God, and that kind of suffering can only be a happy one.

I prefer this image instead: we’re sitting in Purgatory, the purifying flames burning away our bits of imperfections and worldly attachments. Not too far from us is an open door, with God standing there, beckoning us to enter Heaven. But we ourselves say “Not yet”, and choose to remain until we know our souls are pure for Heaven.

I would be glad to find myself in Purgatory.

 

[GEddie]

Of course it is icy and snowy in Purgatory, Colorado.



As to the real one, we can only conjecture. Those who know are too dead to tell us.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[flower_lady]

Of course it is icy and snowy in Purgatory, Colorado.



As to the real one, we can only conjecture. Those who know are too dead to tell us.

ICXC NIKA.

I do believe in the saints and apparitions. We don’t have to, but I do. However there are some that sound not quite right to me too. lol Or you can call it Michigan. lol Thanks for the laugh.

 

[GEddie]

I do believe in the saints and apparitions. We don’t have to, but I do. However there are some that sound not quite right to me too. lol Or you can call it Michigan. lol Thanks for the laugh.

Hell is in Michigan; Purgatory is in Colorado.

ICXC NIKA

 

[OraLabora]

I just knew that living through a Quebec winter would get me time off from purgatory

And since I’ve lived through 56 of 'em, I should be getting a pretty good discount

 

[flower_lady]

I just knew that living through a Quebec winter would get me time off from purgatory

And since I’ve lived through 56 of 'em, I should be getting a pretty good discount

I live 15 minutes away from Detroit. Last winter was bone chilling cold. I should get time off for that one winter. You guys have made my day! lol. You guys are comedians.

 

[GEddie]

I live 15 minutes away from Detroit. Last winter was bone chilling cold. I should get time off for that one winter. You guys have made my day! lol. You guys are comedians.

Detroit huh? So you’re less than 70 miles from Hell!!!

The real funny thing is I know someone from Detroit who doesn’t believe in Hell!! I’m gonna ask her if she knows her own local towns

We’ve got it made down here as we are ALWAYS hotter than Hell!!!

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Gorgias]

In all of the yrs. I have gone to catholic school I have never heard of ice and cold in Purgatory by anybody until I read this book.

That’s because it’s not Church teaching. As others have mentioned, the Church doesn’t have an official teaching on what, exactly, Purgatory will ‘feel’ like (although there are many figurative descriptions of its ‘pains’).

I read this book that my priest gave me entitled; Purgatory (explained by the lives and legends of the saints, by Fr. F.X, Schouppe, S.J.

OK… so, Fr Schouppe published this book in the late 19th century. I found a version online from 1920, with a 1905 preface that, in part, describes this book as “a scrap-book of legends, of folklore, of hearsay episodes in relation to that state of expiation about which the Council [of Trent] is so discreet… caution seems due to the reader.” (p. viii)

So, at the very least, this is simply a book of stories which, although pious in its exposition, can’t be confused with books which provide doctrinal statements about the faith.

and in the eleventh chapter it states that there is a part of Purgatory where you see much fire and ice.

This is a story told by the Venerable Bede, in his ‘Ecclesiastical History of the English People’ (ca 731AD). In this story, Bede talks about the life of St Drithelm, who was reported to have had a near-death experience, and returned to tell of visions of heaven, hell, and purgatory.

So, if you believe in “near-death experiences”, or thrill to read the stories that people who have had NDEs tell, then this story will interest you. It might even encourage you to live your life in a way that will be more pious and holy. And, if it does that, then this story has accomplished its raison d’etre. If, on the other hand, it leads you to believe that these fantastic details are part of the doctrine of the Church, then there’s a problem – since these details aren’t doctrinal.

I must add the whole book scared the daylight out of me.

That, it would seem, is the goal of the book.

 

[GEddie]

Yes, afterlife accounts are by definition hearsay, even if they take place in a hospital as told by the owner of a nearly dying body.

Even when the narrator was someone who was later named to sainthood, they are nothing to put faith in. They form no part of formal Church teaching.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Jon_S_1]

That’s the problem I see with books and writings like these, trying to speculate about the nature of Purgatory and then scare the living daylights out of the faithful. The only things we need to believe about Purgatory are:

1. That those who die in the state of grace, but with unrepented venial sin or incomplete satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to sin go through a purification process but are assured of eternal Bliss; and
2. That this will entail some kind of suffering.

Whether the suffering is fire, ice, or whatever, we do not really know and the Church has not defined. The fire imagery is common because of its association with purification (as in the refining of precious metals) and the fire of God’s love.

The other problem I have with fear-mongering when it comes to Purgatory is that they tend to neglect the fact that in Purgatory, the souls are in a state of grace, and therefore, charity subsists in them. In fact, the assurance of heaven, despite the purification, should mean that even in the suffering, there is joy, perhaps even a greater joy than one has on earth because in Purgatory, there is no worry, no uncertainty. The suffering borne is purely suffering out of love for God, and that kind of suffering can only be a happy one.

I prefer this image instead: we’re sitting in Purgatory, the purifying flames burning away our bits of imperfections and worldly attachments. Not too far from us is an open door, with God standing there, beckoning us to enter Heaven. But we ourselves say “Not yet”, and choose to remain until we know our souls are pure for Heaven.

I would be glad to find myself in Purgatory.

OP, purgatory is not physical but spiritual, it is likely unimaginable.

 

[flower_lady]

That’s because it’s not Church teaching. As others have mentioned, the Church doesn’t have an official teaching on what, exactly, Purgatory will ‘feel’ like (although there are many figurative descriptions of its ‘pains’).

OK… so, Fr Schouppe published this book in the late 19th century. I found a version online from 1920, with a 1905 preface that, in part, describes this book as “a scrap-book of legends, of folklore, of hearsay episodes in relation to that state of expiation about which the Council [of Trent] is so discreet… caution seems due to the reader.” (p. viii)

So, at the very least, this is simply a book of stories which, although pious in its exposition, can’t be confused with books which provide doctrinal statements about the faith.

This is a story told by the Venerable Bede, in his ‘Ecclesiastical History of the English People’ (ca 731AD). In this story, Bede talks about the life of St Drithelm, who was reported to have had a near-death experience, and returned to tell of visions of heaven, hell, and purgatory.

So, if you believe in “near-death experiences”, or thrill to read the stories that people who have had NDEs tell, then this story will interest you. It might even encourage you to live your life in a way that will be more pious and holy. And, if it does that, then this story has accomplished its raison d’etre. If, on the other hand, it leads you to believe that these fantastic details are part of the doctrine of the Church, then there’s a problem – since these details aren’t doctrinal.

That, it would seem, is the goal of the book.

Thank you for looking this up for me…If it has not been approved by the catholic church then I am not interested in it. I thought since the priest gave it to me to read it may have been true. So, now I know. It pays to ask.

 

[Mintaka]

Well, there’s nothing wrong or unapproved with St. Drythelm’s Purgatory narrative, either. St. Bede got asked to write it up because it was deemed pious and credible by his contemporaries.

But you have to know that visions, dreams, and near-death experiences of holy people are still going to be pretty darned symbolic, because there’s no way that human brains in this life can deal with what the afterlife is really like. St. John of the Cross’ books The Ascent of Mount Carmel and its sequel, The Dark Night of the Soul, talk a lot about how mystical experiences are to be interpreted, how they work with your brain and soul, and what’s the really important thing about them.

In this case, the really important thing that St. Drythelm was supposed to learn, and to tell others, was “It’s better to be a saint than just some guy. Don’t be satisfied with just good enough. Try to be a saint and go straight to heaven, or you’ll feel painful regret when you die and realize you could have done better stuff for God.”

 

[Gorgias]

"flower lady:

If it has not been approved by the catholic church then I am not interested in it.

Well, there’s nothing wrong or unapproved with St. Drythelm’s Purgatory narrative, either. St. Bede got asked to write it up because it was deemed pious and credible by his contemporaries.

Right – it’s not that it’s ‘wrong’, it’s just that it’s not part of the Deposit of the Faith (that is, Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition). As long as it doesn’t contradict Catholic doctrine and dogma, and is edifying for you, it’s all good. That doesn’t mean that it’s ‘doctrinal’, though…

 

[Thomas_White]

While I also believe that Purgatory is spiritual and not physical, by definition one’s spell in Purgatory would have both a beginning and an end. It would therefore seem it necessarily occurs in time. There is much that could be said about this. But it is enough to say here that it would seem that while in Purgatory one’s soul has not yet entered the eternal present moment of heaven. The eternal present is timeless, or outside of time.

 

[Denise1957]

I read this book that my priest gave me entitled; Purgatory (explained by the lives and legends of the saints, by Fr. F.X, Schouppe, S.J. and in the eleventh chapter it states that there is a part of Purgatory where you see much fire and ice. This is the part where souls go that during life, have neglected to confess their sins, and who have deferred their conversion to the end. Thanks to a special mercy of God, they managed to repent before death and were saved from Hell’s eternal fire. In all of the yrs. I have gone to catholic school I have never heard of ice and cold in Purgatory by anybody until I read this book. Have you? I must add the whole book scared the daylight out of me. Thank you. Brenda

I’ve never heard of cold and ice in Purgatory, but that alone would cause me to not want to go there (if true), since I hate to be cold.

OTOH, St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great, St. Thomas, and St. Bonaventure all taught that the fires of Purgatory are real, and that souls suffer from it. I don’t think that this is the official teaching of the Church, though.

 

[Thomas_White]

Thomas Aquinas thought that the soul as not corporeal but was a rational and subsistent form and not consisting of both matter and form (for example as in the case of the living human body). But this immaterial subsistent form is in the form of the human body. This form, or soul, is immortal and indestructible. The argument has its origins in Aristotle’s theory of the psyche, and it was elaborated on by Saint Augustine. The full argument is in Question 75 of the Summa Theologica of Aquinas. Aristotle was forgiven for his errant beliefs since he lived centuries before the time of the historical Jesus.

Aquinas, following Augustine, wrote that, “This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world.” It is only worse since there will be the realization that the soul, in its suffering, is not in the presence of God–the very event that would relieve the soul of its terrible suffering. According to Aquinas, this suffering is “punishment by corporeal fire.”

The soul is immortal and indestructible, Aquinas said. How the immaterial soul, without corporeal matter and form, could suffer from corporeal fire does seem mysterious. In this teaching, Purgatory is one awful and dreadful place even if one’s soul were there for only ten seconds.

Fortunately, the works of Thomas Aquinas are not Scripture. They were written about eight-hundred years ago. However, as Catholic schoolchildren prior to Vatican II, this was precisely what we were taught, and we were taught it well and fast. And we were to believe this teaching of the Church lest it become our very fate. It most definitely got our attention. Hell was infinitely worse and involved other eternal tortures as well.

This and other teachings were so onerous to bear as children, with Purgatory seen as a virtual given, that as our generation aged and continued its education, in this the age of secular science, many things were questioned and subsequently were discarded and no longer believed at all. This teaching was certainly one of them. With this questioning, there too often became a falling away from the teachings of the Church and then from the Church itself, I think. Well, actually, I know it.

 

[Denise1957]

The soul is immortal and indestructible, Aquinas said. How the immaterial soul, without corporeal matter and form, could suffer from corporeal fire does seem mysterious. In this teaching, Purgatory is one awful and dreadful place even if one’s soul were there for only ten seconds.

It is indeed mysterious how one (one’s soul in Purgatory) could suffer from corporal fire, even though the soul is immaterial. It might have something to do with our soul and body, since they were meant to be together after death, and not separate as they became after the Fall. Somehow the soul can experience pain, but we may never really know why. The Angelic Doctor probably wrote about this at some point, though. I might look in some of my Aquinas books for it, unless you might know more about it.

Also, aren’t there supposedly different levels of Purgatory? The lowest levels being the worst? The upper one’s may not be so bad (depending on how much one needs to be purified). This can be cause for hope, right?

 

[Gorgias]

Aquinas, following Augustine, wrote that, “This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world.” It is only worse since there will be the realization that the soul, in its suffering, is not in the presence of God–the very event that would relieve the soul of its terrible suffering. According to Aquinas, this suffering is “punishment by corporeal fire.”

Actually, there are two ‘pains’ that Aquinas describes in this part of the Summa. First, though, it’s necessary to state a caveat: this description of Purgatory is from the appendix to the supplement of the Summa Theologiae. It was not written by Thomas, so to speak; after his death, his colleagues compiled his (unfinished) discussion on penance, and added to them other things he had written elsewhere, and appended these to the Summa. So… ‘grain of salt’ time, if you want to say that this is Aquinas writing in the Summa, right?

OK, anyway: you seem to be conflating the two pains described here. One is, as you mention, the pain of the coulda-shoulda-woulda recognition: it’s that pain of realizing that, but for our sins and the damage they did to us, we would be in heaven, in the presence of God, right now!!!, but that we need to be cleansed of these imperfections before attaining to heaven. Think of Christmas morning, when you were a kid. You knew there were toys from Santa down in the other room… you just knew that they were there, just waiting for you! But… you weren’t allowed to get up and start opening them until Mom & Dad gave the ok. (Longest… morning… evar!!!) And so, you lay there in bed, wide awake, just dying inside until it was ok for you to go to the Christmas tree and start opening your presents. That’s the kind of pain Aquinas is talking about… just that it’s not Christmas presents, it’s eternal bliss that we’re missing out on.

There’s a second kind of pain, and that’s the one described as “punishment by corporeal fire.” There’s another name for this pain right there in the question you’re referencing: it’s the pain of sense.

How the immaterial soul, without corporeal matter and form, could suffer from corporeal fire does seem mysterious.

Denise1957:

It is indeed mysterious how one (one’s soul in Purgatory) could suffer from corporal fire, even though the soul is immaterial… Somehow the soul can experience pain, but we may never really know why.

It’s really not all that mysterious. Time for an experiment: close your eyes and remember the greatest pain you ever felt: it might have been physical pain (giving birth, some sort of accident or illness) or emotional pain (the heartbreak of a relationship that ended). For just a minute, close your eyes and remember that pain… in fact, re-live it. Go ahead… I’ll wait.

OK – are you breaking out in a cold sweat right now? Is the memory of that pain so vivid that you were able to begin experiencing it all over? Good. 'Cause that’s what Aquinas is talking about here. It’s not that pain is, by definition, “flesh on fire.” Rather, pain is that sensation that we have. That sensation is felt by our soul. So, the pain that the soul feels, Aquinas is asserting, is the sensation of pain, as if by fire.

In q. 70 of the appendix, in speaking of the fires of hell, Aquinas asserts that it’s not just that the soul sees the fire, and therefore feels pain, or even that it perceives it as painful and therefore feels the pain that it thinks it should. Aquinas agrees that corporeal fire cannot ‘touch’ the soul. But, the fire is the agent of God’s punishment (that is, he’s talking about fires in hell, remember?), and the soul can be considered to be ‘located’ in the fires of hell, and from that location, experience the pain of the punishment of the fire.

If that still sounds mysterious, then consider it this way: your soul is not physical, and therefore, it does not exist in a given ‘place’ (after all, ‘place’ is a quality that only physical things have). But, your soul is united to you; and so, your soul has that quality of being located ‘with’ you. (This being united to you, and therefore, sharing (in a sense) in your location, is what Aquinas is getting at: if your soul is ‘here’, united with you while your body is alive, then it can certainly be considered to be ‘there’, united with the fires of hell if you are damned to hell.

The same sort of argument applies to the ‘fires of Purgatory’, at least as far as the notion of the soul being ‘there’ and feeling their pain. It’s the pain of sense, not of physical sensation, and if it’s reasonable to think that our souls are united to us, then it’s reasonable to think that they can be caused to be united to the ‘fire of Purgatory’ or the ‘fire of hell’.

Fortunately, the works of Thomas Aquinas are not Scripture. They were written about eight-hundred years ago.

No, they’re not Scripture… but, they are utilized, in various places and in various ways, to explain magisterial teaching – which, along with Scripture as part of the Deposit of the Faith, does have the force of Scripture, so to speak.

 

[Denise1957]

It’s really not all that mysterious. Time for an experiment: close your eyes and remember the greatest pain you ever felt: it might have been physical pain (giving birth, some sort of accident or illness) or emotional pain (the heartbreak of a relationship that ended). For just a minute, close your eyes and remember that pain… in fact, re-live it. Go ahead… I’ll wait.

OK – are you breaking out in a cold sweat right now? Is the memory of that pain so vivid that you were able to begin experiencing it all over? Good. 'Cause that’s what Aquinas is talking about here. It’s not that pain is, by definition, “flesh on fire.” Rather, pain is that sensation that we have. That sensation is felt by our soul. So, the pain that the soul feels, Aquinas is asserting, is the sensation of pain, as if by fire.

In q. 70 of the appendix, in speaking of the fires of hell, Aquinas asserts that it’s not just that the soul sees the fire, and therefore feels pain, or even that it perceives it as painful and therefore feels the pain that it thinks it should. Aquinas agrees that corporeal fire cannot ‘touch’ the soul. But, the fire is the agent of God’s punishment (that is, he’s talking about fires in hell, remember?), and the soul can be considered to be ‘located’ in the fires of hell, and from that location, experience the pain of the punishment of the fire.

If that still sounds mysterious, then consider it this way: your soul is not physical, and therefore, it does not exist in a given ‘place’ (after all, ‘place’ is a quality that only physical things have). But, your soul is united to you; and so, your soul has that quality of being located ‘with’ you. (This being united to you, and therefore, sharing (in a sense) in your location, is what Aquinas is getting at: if your soul is ‘here’, united with you while your body is alive, then it can certainly be considered to be ‘there’, united with the fires of hell if you are damned to hell.

The same sort of argument applies to the ‘fires of Purgatory’, at least as far as the notion of the soul being ‘there’ and feeling their pain. It’s the pain of sense, not of physical sensation, and if it’s reasonable to think that our souls are united to us, then it’s reasonable to think that they can be caused to be united to the ‘fire of Purgatory’ or the ‘fire of hell’.

Thanks for the further info on the subject.