Colin Kaepernick and true social justice

[styrgwillidar]

Just my .02 cents:

I don’t care one way or the other what the players do. But, to me the core of the CP and other players doing this during the ‘Entertainment Production that is the game’ with the audience in the stands, is it’s a workplace conduct issue about what type of product the NFL is trying to sell. Up to the NFL as to how they want their employees to conduct themselves in the workplace as it affects their product.

If I tune into the game, I do so, for entertainment. I have plenty of venues to ponder and discuss social and political issues. If I’m with other folks watching a game it’s also a bonding experience amongst fans, put aside any other differences within the context of following and cheering on our teams. During the week if I see someone with a sticker, shirt, cap with ‘my’ team’s logo on it, that can be an opportunity to chat about something unifying — regardless of any other difference in race, politics, gender etc. The players now bringing this into the game production now a potential distraction from the entertainment as well as something that can be divisive and disruptive.

Diversity seems to be a code-word for fomenting divisions vice unity. Sports, in some ways, has more upside in bringing diverse people together than many other venues.

Plenty of worthy causes out there, how many does the NFL want to introduce into the game production. They’ve brought breast cancer awareness into the game. Should they bring in pro-life? Should they bring in prostate cancer awareness? Should they bring in Veteran’s care? Are they morphing from a sports entertainment product to a social issues presentation product? Is the game’s purpose only to draw audiences for political/social messages?

Because, I’ll tune out not because I disagree with CP about the seriousness of police brutality, misconduct, or misuse of force against people of all colors. If that’s something I want to spend a couple hours of my life focusing on-- I’ll do it someplace else.

A lot of players volunteer a lot of their time on worthy causes they’re interested in. Without bringing it into the Entertainment Production which is the game.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

CK has the legal right to protest. The laws stating proper respect do not provide for a legal punishment if respect is not rendered. Free Speech - including protest - is a sacred right in this country. It is not a crime to disrespect our Flag and or National Anthem.

Protest may motivate change or it may be ignored by the general public. It has now been several weeks since CK started and his protest has received considerable media coverage. While there is some support, it is not much. But then again, the Civil Rights protests in the 60s went on for several years before meaningful change in our laws occured. So we shall see if time is on his side or not.

Was he spurred on by his girlfriend? Who knows for sure. What is his relationship with Islam? Who knows. His protest is legal.

But here is why I think he is foolish although maybe well meaning.

1. America has never been perfect because humans are not perfect. There is always something wrong to protest. He kneels for his issue. We all could kneel for our issues too. To protest a particular issue is to ignore the countless good that America has done. We honor the sacrifices made to make and keep us free even if, at times that freedom is abuse because we are not perfect. It seems that the 99% that is good has be set aside because 1% is wrong in his mind.
2. Protest is not the same as taking action to make a more perfect union. Protest is simply saying I am not happy. Someone else has to fix it so that I am happy. OK, fine, if that is all you are capable of.
3. But CK is educated and very well paid. He has the ability to do so much more than just protest. His protest would be seen sincere if he had first had a record of helping to fix it. He is doing nothing more than grandstanding. All talk, no action.
4. OK, in response to much criticism he said he will now donate $1 million. He has already earned $5 million in his NFL career and is earning $12 million this year. One who earns $100,000 a year would need 50 years to earn $5 million.

5. But he is still stuck with kneeling for the rest of his playing career as it is very unlikely that the fix that would satisfy him will be achieved nationwide anytime soon because humans are imperfect. We have some 750,000 police. Allowing for shift work 24/7/365, that is more than 16 billion hours a year of police duty. We have less than 1,500 police kilings a year, less than 600 are black citizens. Of that 600, perhaps 30 might be unjustified. So 30 criminal killings in 16 billion hours of duty is certainly something to protest and demand perfection be achieved. If only CK could play football as perfectly as he demands police all across the nation to police.
Yes, there will be some improvement, hopefully faster than slower, with or without his protest. But still there will be a few unjustifed shootings amidst the vast majority of justified shootings because we are imperfect humans.

That is one of the silliest things about these protests. They are dine with no clear end game or stated goal. It is all nebulous grandstanding.

Since racial unrest has been a part of this and every country since the dawn of time, we can assume he and other players will never stand again. Which is fine as well, but usually these things are done to bring about a specific goal - to raise a minimum wage, to stop construction on a piece of land, to change a law. What is the end game that will cause him to stop kneeling?

And like I said before, he is the worst ambassador for his message of unity. With a history of vulgar innuendos towards police, he comes off as a hypocrite and wholly insincere. Anyone who preaches unity carries themselves in that manner. They don’t stop wearing offensive clothing when they get caught. He’s a fraud, and the backlash his protest causes is unlikely to affect positive discussion or change. It has led people to talking about proper etiquette, respect for the flag, and the politicization of sports. Since that wasn’t his goal, he is failing. And you can’t blame viewers for not responding to his actions the way he wants to.

 

[Latias]

I know lots of people hate Obama but he did say something I think we all should think about.

Said something about how CP and people like him need to feel the pain of many people who lost their loved ones whilst fighting for this country. He also said that people who are shaming CP need to feel the pain of black people who lost their loved ones because of racism.

It’s honestly time to stop being childish and whine about what a guy did IMO, this drama seems so unnecessary.

Colin Kaepernick did not say anything bad about the US military to my knowledge or even organizations such as the CIA, which really was involved in torture and subverting sovereignty, more than the KGB or Stasi. But really, even if Colin Kaepernick did not like the military and if he was even more blunt and said that the military (the Ohio Submarines, TOW missiles, Tridents, Minutemen, 10 super carriers) really do not “defend his freedom” but are tools of an imperialist foreign policy, then that doesn’t mean he would not feel some sadness for those who lost their lives fighting under the US. (I would say they fought in the interests of US foreign policy as opposed to fighting for their country, since the US is not facing any existential military threats. If Colin Kaepernick does not fighting fighting for US foreign policy magnanimous, then so be it.)

I don’t care one way or the other what the players do. But, to me the core of the CP and other players doing this during the ‘Entertainment Production that is the game’ with the audience in the stands, is it’s a workplace conduct issue about what type of product the NFL is trying to sell. Up to the NFL as to how they want their employees to conduct themselves in the workplace as it affects their product.

Fine, boycott the first quarter then. The NFL would lose 25% of ad revenue if everyone does this (unless late game ads are more expensive).

I don’t even watch the beginning of games, since I tune about about 30 minutes after the first snap. This is not my way of avoiding the protests or national anthem or as boycott, but if you do this, then would not either see displays of patriotism or reverence for the military this way or any protest against patriotic rituals. If you do that, you will only see entertainment. It would also help if you didn’t watch the news about NFL players. You will only have your entertainment then. You will still see some fourth down conversion attempts, long field goals, some quarterback rushes, hail marys, sacks.

Perhaps it should be purely about the entertainment then, with no appeals to patriotism made before the start of the game; without hearing on television Joe Buck commemorating the troops. No, in fact, we want professional sports to commemorate US exceptionalism and values, and regard them above reproach.

Because, I’ll tune out not because I disagree with CP about the seriousness of police brutality, misconduct, or misuse of force against people of all colors. If that’s something I want to spend a couple hours of my life focusing on-- I’ll do it someplace else.

You are most likely tuning out because you are offended that the NFL is tolerating the irreverence of the players. I doubt you really care that much about the pink ribbons. I say that because I am a moral sentimentalist (the view that sentiment motivates moral judgment and action), and I doubt pink ribbons would elicit emotions of condemnation. If the NFL was anti-abortion, you would most likely support them. And yes, I would invite Ben Watson to also join Colin Kaepernick to protest this country’s high abortion rate. I doubt he would since pro-lifers are conservatives and they do not want to offend those with conservative sentiments.

If you do not want to take about the Kaepernick’s protest, then ignore those who talk about him. Talk about Blaine Gabbert’s ability, or the final drive in the game, instead of the merits of Kaepernick’s protest. Just say you to others you are not willing to tolerate talk about that and leave. Perhaps, you should suppress your emotions if you see a Colin Kaepernick jersey.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Pride is pride, and all pride is a Deadly Sin, including national pride. I have a deep love for everyone, including my fellow Americans, but when it comes to national pride, you can count me out. I’m sure that CK is abstaining from national pride for other reasons, but I think that people need to recognize national pride for what it is, a most deadly sin!

 

[styrgwillidar]

Colin Kaepernick did not say anything bad about the US military to my knowledge or even organizations such as the CIA, which really was involved in torture and subverting sovereignty, more than the KGB or Stasi. But really, even if Colin Kaepernick did not like the military and if he was even more blunt and said that the military (the Ohio Submarines, TOW missiles, Tridents, Minutemen, 10 super carriers) really do not “defend his freedom” but are tools of an imperialist foreign policy, then that doesn’t mean he would not feel some sadness for those who lost their lives fighting under the US. (I would say they fought in the interests of US foreign policy as opposed to fighting for their country, since the US is not facing any existential military threats. If Colin Kaepernick does not fighting fighting for US foreign policy magnanimous, then so be it.)

Fine, boycott the first quarter then. The NFL would lose 25% of ad revenue if everyone does this (unless late game ads are more expensive).

I don’t even watch the beginning of games, since I tune about about 30 minutes after the first snap. This is not my way of avoiding the protests or national anthem or as boycott, but if you do this, then would not either see displays of patriotism or reverence for the military this way or any protest against patriotic rituals. If you do that, you will only see entertainment. It would also help if you didn’t watch the news about NFL players. You will only have your entertainment then. You will still see some fourth down conversion attempts, long field goals, some quarterback rushes, hail marys, sacks.

Perhaps it should be purely about the entertainment then, with no appeals to patriotism made before the start of the game; without hearing on television Joe Buck commemorating the troops. No, in fact, we want professional sports to commemorate US exceptionalism and values, and regard them above reproach.

You are most likely tuning out because you are offended that the NFL is tolerating the irreverence of the players. I doubt you really care that much about the pink ribbons. If the NFL was anti-abortion, you would most likely support them. And yes, I would invite Ben Watson to also join Colin Kaepernick to protest this country’s high abortion rate. I doubt he would since pro-lifers are conservatives and they do not want to offend those with conservative sentiments.

You’re under the misconception that my not watching is some kind of statement on my part, or some sort of concerted attempt to influence the NFL. It isn’t, truly they can do whatever they want. By they I mean the NFL, it’s their product they’re trying to sell to the public.

Given the myriad of forums for entertainment-- including getting out of the house and participating in activities, and the myriad opportunities (like these forums) to have meaningful discussions on social issue – if I’m in the market for entertainment it won’t be the NFL as more and more of the articles and on-air discussions turn political. It’s just a consumer choice on my part, which product out there suits my entertainment desire.

 

[Latias]

You’re under the misconception that my not watching is some kind of statement on my part, or some sort of concerted attempt to influence the NFL. It isn’t, truly they can do whatever they want. By they I mean the NFL, it’s their product they’re trying to sell to the public.

Given the myriad of forums for entertainment-- including getting out of the house and participating in activities, and the myriad opportunities (like these forums) to have meaningful discussions on social issue – if I’m in the market for entertainment it won’t be the NFL as more and more of the articles and on-air discussions turn political. It’s just a consumer choice on my part, which product out there suits my entertainment desire.

This is what you said earlier:

Because, I’ll tune out not because I disagree with CP about the seriousness of police brutality, misconduct, or misuse of force against people of all colors. If that’s something I want to spend a couple hours of my life focusing on-- I’ll do it someplace else.

I think I am correct. If you are tuning out after Colin Kapernick’s protest, then your decision to “tune out” was influenced by his actions and you are being disingenuous. If you did not watch NFL games in the first place, then you really did not “tune out” because you were not tuned in at all. I find it hard to believe that you or anyone would tune out because of the issues the NFL brings awareness to, such as Play 60 or breast cancer. I say that because I am a moral sentimentalist (the view that sentiment motivates moral judgment and action), and I doubt pink ribbons would elicit emotions of condemnation. You might not call it a boycott or a statement, but if Colin Kaepernick’s actions influenced you to tune out, then you are doing so because you are disgusted by his actions or the NFL for tolerating these expressions.

In my area, last Sunday, I had the AFC Raiders vs. Titans, NFC Bucs vs. Rams (I only watch a few minutes of that one), and Cowboys vs. Bears. I didn’t have to see Kaepernick or even think about the National Anthem when I watched those games. After all, like I said, there are easy ways to avoid the politicization of the game, such as not watching the National Anthem part.

Continuing on with my disgust thesis, you would not even consider those measures. I doubt you even want to watch one minute of the NFL, since it would give Colin Kaepernick and players sympathetic to him the air of attention you think they crave.

No, I am not attacking you. I am simply saying that your decision not to watch the games is influenced by your emotions. It is very simple.

 

[Latias]

I still think I am correct. It is not a “boycott” since you are not making a conscious effort to do so, and you are not encouraging others to do so or broadcasting to others (except on this thread) that you are.

Still, I never heard anything about Kaepernick, police brutality, or the anthem from the CBS or NBC telecasts last week. I did not watch every minute of those games, but the sample that I watch did not say that.

 

[styrgwillidar]

You assume too much. I’m a Raider’s fan, and used to be a Rams fan prior to their leaving LA. They actually used to do their pre-season practice at a college nearby and my friends and I would go over and get autographs when I was a kid.

I usually look forward to the season and watch games most sundays. By tune out, I mean I’m not watching them this season. It’s not a boycott-- I just got tired of all the talk, the commentary, the discussions and the articles.

I brought up the breast cancer awareness because this is all, at least to me, a business decision by the NFL. Just like their participation there, they made a business/marketing decision about how their participation would impact a demographic they want – women viewers. I’ve got no objection to it. I brought it up to point out there are a lot of worthy causes the NFL could do the same thing with, how many should they support during the game, again up to them in their assessment on how it affects their bottom line. But, once you start doing them at what point do you stop?

It is completely up to them about employee conduct in the workplace. Mine doesn’t permit political or religious discussions in the workplace because they can be divisive, a distraction, and impact workplace productivity. I don’t see my employer as muzzling my first amendment rights by making those rules. They’ve made a business decision.

ETA: similarly, I couldn’t care less if they cut the National Anthem tradition entirely, their product, their choice. If it cut the distractions, I might go back to watching.

When I’m in the market for a vegan burger, I don’t demand In-N-Out provide me one, I go someplace else. This isn’t an emotional thing to me. It is just a consumer choice. What is more enjoyable- ride my motorcycle for a couple of hours or watch an NFL game with the added distraction of who is doing what on the side line and why, who did what on the sideline at the other games, pontificating by the announcer etc.

So, again up to the NFL on what they’ll allow their employee to do in the workplace. I don’t care because it’s their product not mine. I have lots of choices for entertainment.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I still think I am correct. It is not a “boycott” since you are not making a conscious effort to do so, and you are not encouraging others to do so or broadcasting to others (except on this thread) that you are.

Still, I never heard anything about Kaepernick, police brutality, or the anthem from the CBS or NBC telecasts last week. I did not watch every minute of those games, but the sample that I watch did not say that.

And, if it calms down and more folks tell me the same thing- it’s not a distraction, I may go back to watching. Of course, part of that is who you’re watching with, went to lunch at a place with the game on, and some patrons were getting into a heated discussion over the whole issue of BLM, national anthem, nature of patriotism, free speech etc.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Pride is pride, and all pride is a Deadly Sin, including national pride. I have a deep love for everyone, including my fellow Americans, but when it comes to national pride, you can count me out. I’m sure that CK is abstaining from national pride for other reasons, but I think that people need to recognize national pride for what it is, a most deadly sin!

Well, that’s certainly depressing. Showing pride in your nation isn’t even close to the sin of pride, in classical terms, any more than being proud of your daughter for learning to read is. It is so far off the intent of the sin that you might as well be opposed to the existence of the three-toed sloth, because sloth is a deadly sin too.

Poor animals.

Can one take national fervor too far? Sure, in the same way that one can take eating into gluttony if not checked. But simply being proud does not make one sinful, unless every time someone posts “I am so proud of our Bishop for saying that!” they were sinning.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well, that’s certainly depressing. Showing pride in your nation isn’t even close to the sin of pride, in classical terms, any more than being proud of your daughter for learning to read is. It is so far off the intent of the sin that you might as well be opposed to the existence of the three-toed sloth, because sloth is a deadly sin too.

Poor animals.

Can one take national fervor too far? Sure, in the same way that one can take eating into gluttony if not checked. But simply being proud does not make one sinful, unless every time someone posts “I am so proud of our Bishop for saying that!” they were sinning.

How is it that God considers us to all be sinners? I admit that many times when we tell a person that we are proud of them, we really mean it as a compliment, and it’s not true pride. But when we take deep pride in our nation, it’s more often than not a sinful form of pride.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

How is it that God considers us to all be sinners? I admit that many times when we tell a person that we are proud of them, we really mean it as a compliment, and it’s not true pride. But when we take deep pride in our nation, it’s more often than not a sinful form of pride.

Says who?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Says who?

The fact that we are all sinners comes directly from the Gospels.

Are you claiming that pride is not a sin? Or that we are somehow exempt from sin when we direct our pride to our nation?

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

The fact that we are all sinners comes directly from the Gospels.

Are you claiming that pride is not a sin? Or that we are somehow exempt from sin when we direct our pride to our nation?

My question was a response to your statement: when we take deep pride in our nation, it’s more often than not a sinful form of pride.

Says who? If you think that, fine. But that is hardly gospel or provable.

I maintain claiming being proud of your country is no sinful that being proud of your children. It may be misguided at times, but not sinful.

You are taking the word “pride” as identified as a deadly sin and expanding the meaning so broadly as to lose all meaning and relevance.

If as you imply the word pride is simply attached to sin, a pride of lions implies some sort of bestial sin I can’t comprehend. That clearly is not how the Church defines pride and its sinful nature.

 

[Robert_Sock]

My question was a response to your statement: when we take deep pride in our nation, it’s more often than not a sinful form of pride.

Says who? If you think that, fine. But that is hardly gospel or provable.

I maintain claiming being proud of your country is no sinful that being proud of your children. It may be misguided at times, but not sinful.

You are taking the word “pride” as identified as a deadly sin and expanding the meaning so broadly as to lose all meaning and relevance.

If as you imply the word pride is simply attached to sin, a pride of lions implies some sort of bestial sin I can’t comprehend. That clearly is not how the Church defines pride and its sinful nature.

Where in the bible or Church teaching does it say we should have pride in our nation? It’s fine to hold our nation in high esteem, which I do, but we are not to feel proud because of it. To me, esteem is related to brotherly love, but pride carries along with it a certain sense of arrogance in which we place it above other nations.

 

[zab]

Where in the bible or Church teaching does it say we should have pride in our nation? It’s fine to hold our nation in high esteem, which I do, but we are not to feel proud because of it. To me, esteem is related to brotherly love, but pride carries along with it a certain sense of arrogance in which we place it above other nations.

Don’t confuse being proud to be an American with the vice of pride. Among the various definitions of “proud” is having a proper sense of respect. And this is the sense in which one speaks of being proud to be an American, or to be a father or a mother, etc.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Don’t confuse being proud to be an American with the vice of pride. Among the various definitions of “proud” is having a proper sense of respect. And this is the sense in which one speaks of being proud to be an American, or to be a father or a mother, etc.

I got what you said and I agree that many people who say they are “proud” are really not guilty of the sin of pride, but my point is that there are also many who are being proud of America in such a way that they are sinning with pride.

 

[Trader]

I feel like I should let you know that the full national anthem espouses slavery. Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so when he writes “Land of the free, home of the brave” he’s not talking about blacks.

Francis Scott Key had a brother-in-law named Roger Brooke Taney, who wrote the Dred Scot decision as Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court. He was appointed by Andrew Jackson. That not only denied the personhood of slaves, but guaranteed a civil war eventually.

As bad as that was it does not negate the meaning and importance of Key’s poem.

 

[Trader]

it was well known that his job was on the line- now that his protests have become news, there is no way that he will be cut. can you imagine the PR nightmare for the 49ers if they cut him?

Kaepernick had an historic game yesterday against a really bad Chicago Bears team. He completed on pass for four yards and was sacked five times. No quarterback in NFL history ever had such a bad stat line. The Bears probably tackled him because he was half black.

It would be hard not to cut him now.