College Age People and The Latin Mass

[C794]

I can tell that you don’t hate the OF and in essence I agree with most of your post. I think the problem is that you seem to say the ordinary form is responsible for the problems. In actuality I’d say the problem is primarily catechetical (it’s a mistake to place blame on the rubrics, the only time problems occur is when they are intentionally altered) and due to parishioner attitudes. A large portion of those who lived through Vatican 2 misinterpreted the council. As a result, they thought they could improvise liturgically and had presented doctrine in a watered down fashion or failed to teach that which they disagreed with. The problem isn’t the OF, but with how parishioners are taught. Bad teaching can cause great harm to a parish. Since the people with these beliefs wouldn’t elect to attend the EF, those parishes have remained, for the most part, problem free. The Ordinary Form parishes have suffered from these attitudes, but I believe it would be a mistake to say most have, although we can say that it’s a large portion. I also, think we need to be careful saying what is or isn’t taught. While my youth group was more emotional based we did have a talk about the dangers of exposing ourselves to certain forms of entertainment. This was at a parish that I would label as mostly liberal. At the same parish we had two nuns (in full habits) come and speak of the need for confession and the dangers of mortal sin and Hell. Again, at this parish, the lay leadership was very liberal (though the priest was fairly orthodox). This shows that even in parishes that aren’t the best, good teachings can be heard, if the people listen. I have also experienced the Ordinary Form celebrated with great reverence and it was very beautiful. I think those who improvise and try to make the Mass “more relevant,” are those who chose to violate the rubrics in the first place (I think they form a vocal minority). They see that their changes didn’t work and believe it’s because the youth want more changes. They don’t realize that the attempts to make the Mass relevant have actually made it appear irrelevant. But this has more to due with attitudes in specific parishes (a large minority), not the Ordinary Form itself. Also, we see that the younger priests tend to celebrate the Mass more reverently and preach orthodoxy. In addition, more faithful catechetical material has been produced. As time passes, the problems are being fixed. Implementing a new council is difficult and would naturally cause temporary problems. Honestly, I have a hard time saying that these problems are widespread. Although, I think the area in which a person lives will affect their perception of the commonality of such issues. Problems would tend to be more common in liberal areas.

Sorry if this post was hard to follow, I had a difficult time organizing my thoughts.

Sorry for the repost, but I wanted to edit this further. .

 

[holyfamily1]

I can tell that you don’t hate the OF and in essence I agree with most of your post. I think the problem is that you seem to say the ordinary form is responsible for the problems. In actuality I’d say the problem is primarily catechetical (it’s a mistake to place blame on the rubrics, the only time problems occur is when they are intentionally altered) and due to parishioner attitudes. A large portion of those who lived through Vatican 2 misinterpreted the council. As a result, they thought they could improvise liturgically and had presented doctrine in a watered down fashion or failed to teach that which they disagreed with. The problem isn’t the OF, but with how parishioners are taught. Bad teaching can cause great harm to a parish. Since the people with these beliefs wouldn’t elect to attend the EF, those parishes have remained, for the most part, problem free. The Ordinary Form parishes have suffered from these attitudes, but I believe it would be a mistake to say most have, although we can say that it’s a large portion. I also, think we need to be careful saying what is or isn’t taught. While my youth group was more emotional based we did have a talk about the dangers of exposing ourselves to certain forms of entertainment. This was at a parish that I would label as mostly liberal. At the same parish we had two nuns (in full habits) come and speak of the need for confession and the dangers of mortal sin and Hell. Again, at this parish, the lay leadership was very liberal (though the priest was fairly orthodox). This shows that even in parishes that aren’t the best, good teachings can be heard, if the people listen. I have also experienced the Ordinary Form celebrated with great reverence and it was very beautiful. I think those who improvise and try to make the Mass “more relevant,” are those who chose to violate the rubrics in the first place. They see that their changes didn’t work and believe it’s because the youth want more changes. They don’t realize that the attempts to make the Mass relevant have actually rendered it irrelevant. But this has more to due with attitudes in specific parishes (probably a minority by now), not the Ordinary Form itself. Also, we see that the younger priests tend to celebrate the Mass more reverently and preach orthodoxy. In addition, more faithful catechetical material has been produced. As time passes, the problems are being fixed. Implementing a new council is difficult and would naturally cause temporary problems. Honestly, I have a hard time saying that these problems are widespread. It may be common to find small problems, but ones that are spiritually damaging are quite rare. Although, I think the area in which a person lives will affect their perception of the commonality of such issues. Problems would tend to be more common in liberal areas. But still I think 95% of issues aren’t spiritually dangerous. This is not to say that they are okay. I’m bothered by even the smallest alteration to the rubrics.

Sorry if this post was hard to follow, I had a difficult time organizing my thoughts.

I agree but, I would say that I don’t think that it is merely catechetical but, also a result of abuses that did and still do occur within the liturgy. And, I think that these things are spiritually dangerous as this has and will continue to do until we return to an authentic Catholic characterization lead souls away.

 

[ProVobis]

I think we need to be careful with making generalizations like this. Attendance to the ordinary or extraordinary is a matter of personal preference. The Masses are equal to each other.

It may be a generalization but my pastor on more than one occasion stated that of those who make their First Communion at his parish, most will never step foot inside the church again.

So what in college will move them to come back?

 

[holyfamily1]

It may be a generalization but my pastor on more than one occasion stated that of those who make their First Communion at his parish, most will never step foot inside the church again.

So what in college will move them to come back?

I know, this is something that I usually don’t understand either. If you don’t and don’t intend to anytime soon start assisting at Holy Mass, why have your child Confirmed or receive First Holy Communion?

 

[C794]

I agree but, I would say that I don’t think that it is merely catechetical but, also a result of abuses that did and still do occur within the liturgy. And, I think that these things are spiritually dangerous as this has and will continue to do until we return to an authentic Catholic characterization lead souls away.

Yes the abuses do cause problems, but these are due to parishioner attitudes and can even be traced back to catechetics. They’d never occur if people were properly taught about the Mass. At least in my experience (I’ve only been involved at one parish), people are taught that such alterations are perfectly okay and part of the beauty of Catholicism. If we continue to fix how we catechize people, then we will see more faithfulness to the rubrics.

 

[otjm]

It seems to me (now I start to anger people) most of the young people who are actually concerned about God, their life, staying in a state of grace, and getting to heaven (prayer, penance, mortification, etc.) generally attend the Traditional Latin Mass. Read YoungTradCath’s post about how priests sometimes in the OF try to attract youth to Mass. Just my honest opinion.

Considering that there are probably something in the range of 17,500 Masses said on a weekend, and about 400 of them are EF Masses, yes, it is your opinion.

Not one, however, that would seem to be based on much experience.

You have just called out thousands upon thousands of young people. Not to mention tens of thousands who are not “young people”.

 

[holyfamily1]

Considering that there are probably something in the range of 17,500 Masses said on a weekend, and about 400 of them are EF Masses, yes, it is your opinion.

Not one, however, that would seem to be based on much experience.

You have just called out thousands upon thousands of young people. Not to mention tens of thousands who are not “young people”.

With my experience, the majority of young people who care about their faith and desire to go to Heaven (prayer, penance, mortification) attend the EF. Why? I don’t know. That is just how it is. Maybe it is because their priests are faithful in all aspects, and they are determined for the sanctification of their parish’s souls. Yes, it is my opinion but, if you go to an EF and then back to an OF; tell me which of the youth look like they care about their faith, that they want to be at Holy Mass. It is true. Yes, I did just call out unfaithful Catholics in general (both EF and OF)

I guess that the youth don’t know their own, considering I have many ‘Catholic’ friends both at OF and EF in different parishes and TLM communities too.

Can I ask you why do you think that EF parishes typically have 5 seminarians from that parish while OF might have 1 or 2? And, never have I at a EF Mass heard a homily on vocations (nor have I at an OF)

 

[Baelor]

With my experience, the majority of young people who care about their faith and desire to go to Heaven (prayer, penance, mortification) attend the EF. Why? I don’t know. That is just how it is. Maybe it is because their priests are faithful in all aspects, and they are determined for the sanctification of their parish’s souls. Yes, it is my opinion but, if you go to an EF and then back to an OF; tell me which of the youth look like they care about their faith, that they want to be at Holy Mass. It is true. Yes, I did just call out unfaithful Catholics in general (both EF and OF).

All of the young people at the parishes I go to, and all of the people at my college Masses. Your experience is not everyone’s.

Can I ask you why do you think that EF parishes typically have 5 seminarians from that parish while OF might have 1 or 2?

Larger families?

And, never have I at a EF Mass heard a homily on vocations (nor have I at an OF)

I have heard several at OFs in the last couple weeks.

 

[ProVobis]

FWIW, according to this article from

newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0412-gerbracht (I don’t know how much non-subscribers can see.)

Data from American Catholics Today, published in 2007, compares the commitment to the Church of the generation of Catholics born before 1941 with those born after 1979. Among the pre-1941 generation (who attended Catholic schools or parish catechism classes in the 1950s-1960s), 43 percent maintain a “high commitment” to the Church. Of the post-1979 generation, a dismal zero percent maintain a “high commitment” to the Church.

 

[otjm]

With my experience, the majority of young people who care about their faith and desire to go to Heaven (prayer, penance, mortification) attend the EF. Why? I don’t know. That is just how it is. Maybe it is because their priests are faithful in all aspects, and they are determined for the sanctification of their parish’s souls. Yes, it is my opinion but, if you go to an EF and then back to an OF; tell me which of the youth look like they care about their faith, that they want to be at Holy Mass. It is true. Yes, I did just call out unfaithful Catholics in general (both EF and OF)

I guess that the youth don’t know their own, considering I have many ‘Catholic’ friends both at OF and EF in different parishes and TLM communities too.

Can I ask you why do you think that EF parishes typically have 5 seminarians from that parish while OF might have 1 or 2? And, never have I at a EF Mass heard a homily on vocations (nor have I at an OF)

In 2012 there were 3723 graduate level seminarians in the US.

400 parishes x 5 would equal 2000 of those from EF parishes.

Pardon me if I question your statistics.

You might have experience with one or two parishes that have the EF. I sort of doubt you have much experience beyond that.

Then again, maybe you travel all across the US.

As to the youth, I find you to be extremely judgmental about them with very little apparent life experience to make such claims.

 

[C794]

With my experience, the majority of young people who care about their faith and desire to go to Heaven (prayer, penance, mortification) attend the EF. Why? I don’t know. That is just how it is. Maybe it is because their priests are faithful in all aspects, and they are determined for the sanctification of their parish’s souls. Yes, it is my opinion but, if you go to an EF and then back to an OF; tell me which of the youth look like they care about their faith, that they want to be at Holy Mass. It is true. Yes, I did just call out unfaithful Catholics in general (both EF and OF)

I guess that the youth don’t know their own, considering I have many ‘Catholic’ friends both at OF and EF in different parishes and TLM communities too.

Can I ask you why do you think that EF parishes typically have 5 seminarians from that parish while OF might have 1 or 2? And, never have I at a EF Mass heard a homily on vocations (nor have I at an OF)

I think you are only speaking from opinion. What you’ve noticed could simply be a result of where you live. I think it’s unfair to say it’s the norm within the Ordinary form. The larger number of vocations at an Extraordinary Form parish (I’m unsure if there are, I haven’t researched this) could be due to the fact that there aren’t many per diocese. In an EF parish you’ll find people from every part of the diocese. If someone wants the TLM they often have to commute a greater distance to get their. This is bound to create a higher concentration of seminarians. On the other hand, there are more ordinary form parishes. This could create the appearance of less seminarians; those who would be called (we need to remember this is a vocation from God and would be felt no matter what environment a person grew up in) are going to be more spread out.

In addition, while I’ve never heard a homily on vocations, I’ve heard prayers for vocations and some discussion of it.

Can we move on past this debate. I don’t feel that it’s a healthy thing to argue about. We are arguing whether one approved rite is better than another approved rite. That can’t be good. This wasn’t my intent in starting this thread.

 

[Monica4316]

Since I’ve decided to eventually begin attending a Latin Mass, I was wondering how often do college aged people attend. Is it typical to find people between 18 and 23 involved in the parishes?

At the FSSP parish I’ve attended, there are many young people and are very involved as well, like in the choir I’m in my 20s myself.

 

[TimothyH]

I know, this is something that I usually don’t understand either. If you don’t and don’t intend to anytime soon start assisting at Holy Mass, why have your child Confirmed or receive First Holy Communion?

What do you mean by “assisting at Holy Mass?”

Do you mean attending Mass and participating in the Mass through prayer and the postures and responses, or do you mean such things as altar serving?

-Tim-

 

[holyfamily1]

What do you mean by “assisting at Holy Mass?”

Do you mean attending Mass and participating in the Mass through prayer and the postures and responses, or do you mean such things as altar serving?

-Tim-

Attending Mass