College Is Pitting Me Against The Church-PART 2

[LifeIsAbsurd]

There is this young man who sits right next to me. (I can’t change seats because I am in a wheelchair) and at every opportunity makes it known that he is a proud Atheist

That is the nature of free speech. He may say what he believes, and you may say what you believe. Of course, there are certain limits placed upon the discussion by law, college rules, and your professor’s rules. But generally and naturally, colleges and especially in-class discussions encourage the free and open discussion of ideas. If you chose, you could similarly make it known at every opportunity you’re a proud Catholic.

who is not going to tolerate any mention of spirituality or anything that even “hints” at having a relation to religion even if it is relevant to the text we are reading or to the discussion that is being led.

He’s a student. He has no control over what you say. It doesn’t matter what he wants to tolerate any more than it matters what you want to tolerate.

Even when the word “faith” was used as an alternative to “trust” for another human being, he went into a tirade and would not let up until the teacher apologized for the usage of the term in the reading we were doing!

Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
Trust: Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.

From the standard dictionary definitions–faith implies a lack of material evidence while trust does not. Perhaps in the context of the discussion ‘trust’ was a more accurate word than ‘faith’. Eg, I ____ my haircutter to do a good job because he did a good job the last 24 times’. ‘trust’ would be a more accurate choice than ‘have faith’.

He ‘won’ his argument. If you disagreed, speak up! Again, most professors encourage open discussion and would not ‘shoot you down’ nor allow someone else to ‘cut you off’ if you decided to speak your mind. In college there were outspoken atheists, outspoken religious nuts (note, I’m not implying you are one), outspoken animal rights activists, outspoken gays, outspoken people who believed HIV didn’t exist, etc.

Be polite, but speak up for yourself. What’s the worst that could happen? Certainly no worse than being silent, feeling the victim, and dropping out.

This person who wants their beliefs to be respected has absolutely no tolerance for anyone Else’s beliefs because Atheism has taught him that he is “enlightened” to the folly of believing in “fairy tales” and “lies” and that those of us who do believe are intellectually stunted.

And he has as much right to his beliefs as you have to yours.

I am starting to become enraged by this person and their attitude. I think people should be free to have whatever opinion they want

Good.

but should exercise restraint when in a room with others who may not share their opinions.

You may believe this, but our country believes in free speech, and colleges generally encourage anyone who wants to speak up, to speak up, as long as they do not berate classmates or violate rules.

I do try to understand that bad experiences with religion in general sometimes leads people to choose to believe in nothing. I can definitely sympathize with just giving up when all you have seen and experienced is so negative and stereotypical. I have been to some churches where what they were preaching would scare you into a stupor-so I can understand when someone who is feeling manipulated by certain christian practitioners would choose to reject God altogether

This is not generally why people choose atheism. Did Carl Sagan view life as ‘negative and stereotypical’. Was John Lennon’s ‘Imagine’ about how terrible life is? I’m cautiously optimistic and one of my favorite movies is ‘Life is Beautiful’.

however, I don’t understand the seething hatred that Atheist some times exude.

:: There are people out there who are intolerant. Some claim to be Christians. Some claim to be atheists.

What would you do?

Speak up for your beliefs in class! Don’t be a victim! Don’t be a wallflower! If you can’t handle other people stating their beliefs, too, college will be a difficult time.

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

This would be grounds for a discrimination lawsuit.

Many college campuses have student clubs for various religions denominations. I’m not sure why yours would be any different.

Definitely. Colleges encourage clubs and assemblies of almost every type.

 

[vsedriver]

Personally, I’d stay in the class and find a way to mention God at least five times per class period. And, I’d let the teacher know in no uncertain terms that she had better not let this loud mouth bully the class or take over the discussions.

But that’s me.

I’d probably do about the same thing. Whenever this guy opens his mouth and says something as idiotic as the word ‘faith’ is offensive I’d bust a gut laughing. Laughing is contagious. If one or more start to laugh it will rob this guy of his thunder. No one can hold power when they look ridiculous.

This isn’t a case of a true believer but a case of a bully. Bullies must be confronted. He’s got everyone buffaloed. Nothing disarms a person faster than laughter.

Believe me, you aren’t the only one who has an issue with this guy. You show the way and the others will back you up.

 

[Ceil-1]

Complain to the higher-ups. You have a right not to be intimidated or cowed.

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

Complain to the higher-ups. You have a right not to be intimidated or cowed.

True, assuming she’s been bullied twice and the teachers don’t care.

“If I tried to start a college club for Catholics I’d be bounced out of the Student Union so fast I wouldn’t know what hit me.”

First, that’s not true of any public college or university I have ever attended, visited, or heard about.

“What’s sad is that HE would probably have me thrown out for mentioning God”

Second, it’s odd she believes that (a) this fellow student has the power to have her thrown out of class and (b) that the professor would do so for simply mentioning she believes in god(s).

Third, she’s encountered supposed bullies in two different classes, and in this case it’s a student and her professor apparently doesn’t feel the same… in a core class like English where schools often vet teachers more carefully.

I encourage her to at least consider the possibility that things are not as they appear to her.

I’ve met people before who thought they were victims when they weren’t, and the sad thing is that belief resulted in them becoming victims.

 

[maryharket]

True, assuming she’s been bullied twice and the teachers don’t care.
I encourage her to at least consider the possibility that things are not as they appear to her.

I’ve met people before who thought they were victims when they weren’t, and the sad thing is that belief resulted in them becoming victims.

Hello Lifels

Well I could continue on as I’ve always had letting everyone assume that they are right and continue to believe that there is ALWAYS something wrong with me. I’m sure that would solve everything. Funny how even if someone witnesses something (my professors) its always preferable to turn a blind eye, or to transfer blame from the offender to the offended. Now since you have virtually nothing to lose by joining this discussion-I can see how you may have come to the above conclusion as stated in your quote. But take heart the professor responded to an email I sent (I will not include what I sent because it is long and I don’t want to take up oodles of space here with it) but the response was short and to the point and supports your perceptions of my situation.

Professor A- "I’m thinking about what you have written. I would have said he was long-winded and opinionated, at worst. Let’s talk next week about this, if it still seems like a big problem to you."

Mind you she was right there, 2 feet from him-hearing and seeing everything! But hey who I am just some some intellectually stunted believer in fairy tales!

Sorry if I’m not conveying an attitude of charity that is expected of me by the group but I can’t help how much hurt this has caused me. I think this thread should just end here and I apologize for even bringing this up. Thank you all for your advice, I have taken a lot of it to heart.

Take Care M

 

[3DOCTORS]

Hello Lifels

Well I could continue on as I’ve always had letting everyone assume that they are right and continue to believe that there is ALWAYS something wrong with me. I’m sure that would solve everything. Funny how even if someone witnesses something (my professors) its always preferable to turn a blind eye, or to transfer blame from the offender to the offended. Now since you have virtually nothing to lose by joining this discussion-I can see how you may have come to the above conclusion as stated in your quote. But take heart the professor responded to an email I sent (I will not include what I sent because it is long and I don’t want to take up oodles of space here with it) but the response was short and to the point and supports your perceptions of my situation.

Professor A- "I’m thinking about what you have written. I would have said he was long-winded and opinionated, at worst. Let’s talk next week about this, if it still seems like a big problem to you."

Mind you she was right there, 2 feet from him-hearing and seeing everything! But hey who I am just some some intellectually stunted believer in fairy tales!

Sorry if I’m not conveying an attitude of charity that is expected of me by the group but I can’t help how much hurt this has caused me. I think this thread should just end here and I apologize for even bringing this up. Thank you all for your advice, I have taken a lot of it to heart.

Take Care M

Mary, I don’t know if you’re still checking this thread, but in your very first post it was apparent to me that the prof wimped out on her duty to keep the students respectful to one another, and now she’s trying to pin the blame on you. Shame on her. :tsktsk: You’ve paid your money, you deserve to get what you paid for.

I’d take it to the dean. When I was in a 4-year state university - an English major like one poster above - the profs themselves were the secularized ones who’d “outgrown” Catholicism. It was mind-boggling - and that was over 25 years ago!!! I feel for anyone having to put up with the stuff you’re describing. Good grief.

I’ll pray for you. If nothing else, consider online courses maybe?

 

[Erich]

This person who wants their beliefs to be respected has absolutely no tolerance for anyone Else’s beliefs because Atheism has taught him that he is “enlightened” to the folly of believing in “fairy tales” and “lies” and that those of us who do believe are intellectually stunted.

Personally, I’d stay in the class and find a way to mention God at least five times per class period. And, I’d let the teacher know in no uncertain terms that she had better not let this loud mouth bully the class or take over the discussions.

But that’s me.

Exactly.

When that guy starts one’s of his tirades… just say that you feel he is being intolerant and discriminating against you and other people of other world-views.
Just use the terminology of the post-modern *new ethics * which he is probably already using, to show that he is undemocratic to the core.

And if he uses words like “fairy tales” and “lies” in one of his tirades, I would – loudly – say something like “Joe, did you just hear being intolerant of people of faith? Mary, did you just hear discriminating against people of faith?”

It would help if Joe and Mary knew ahead of time that plan to call on them, so they can respond loudly – at least, loudly enough for and the instructor to hear.

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

Dear Mary,

Now since you have virtually nothing to lose by joining this discussion

I also have virtually nothing to gain by entering this discussion.

Professor A- "I’m thinking about what you have written. I would have said he was long-winded and opinionated, at worst. Let’s talk next week about this, if it still seems like a big problem to you." Mind you she was right there, 2 feet from him-hearing and seeing everything!

So your professor was not turning a blind eye! She doesn’t perceive him to be a bully and she’s willing to meet with you to discuss the matter. That’s a good sign, and a good time to reflect upon what he’s actually said.

But hey who I am just some some intellectually stunted believer in fairy tales!

Academic codes usually prevent physical threats, personal insults, and harassment but permit verbal disagreement with classmates or the teacher during open discussion. If he actually has called you or other classmates “intellectually stunted” you have a solid case. If instead you feel like he’s saying that, you do not. Question–If he hasn’t called you intellectually stunted, then who was the first to do so?

I think this thread should just end here and I apologize for even bringing this up.

It’s no bother. I was actually thinking about you throughout a dental appointment today. Maybe I just needed something to keep my mind off that big drill! In any event, I hope your discussion with the teacher is productive and you find a way to continue your classes. I’ve found my education to be worth much more than it cost. And I also hope you’ll update us so we’ll know everything is okay with you.

Intelligent people can disagree (I do not believe the Catholic God exists!) without insulting one another. There are ignorant, uncivilized people of all faiths and unfaiths in this world–and that’s certainly true of Catholics and Atheists.

Take Care M

You too. :hug3:

 

[Newbie2]

Hello All!

 I should change my handle to "disgruntled college student". As you may or may not know I am having some serious issues concerning things I am experiencing as a college student in regards to my faith and Christianity in general. It's now coming to a head and I'm seriously considering just giving up on getting my AA degree. I was reading some of the other threads concerning other faiths and how much we should tolerate whatever those beliefs entail. I agree with what posters have said about charity etc. but now I'm hitting a wall as it were in regards to what my soul can tolerate. I am a very sensitive person when it comes to matters of my faith. I am tough as nails otherwise but if someone messes with my belief in God and the church it feels like they are literally bludgeoning me and the Lord for no good reason but just for the satisfaction of utter hatred. Here's my latest scenario:

 I finally got accepted into an Honors English course after 2 yeas of waiting. It's a lovely course full of good literature and open discussions however, I am starting to get the same feeling I had in my history course-that is that God is under attack and that I should just leave.

There is this young man who sits right next to me. (I can’t change seats because I am in a wheelchair) and at every opportunity makes it known that he is a proud Atheist who is not going to tolerate any mention of spirituality or anything that even “hints” at having a relation to religion even if it is relevant to the text we are reading or to the discussion that is being led.

 Even when the word "faith" was used as an alternative to "trust" for another human being, he went into a tirade and would not let up until the teacher apologized for the usage of the term in the reading we were doing! This person who wants their beliefs to be respected has absolutely no tolerance for anyone Else's beliefs because Atheism has taught him that he is "enlightened" to the folly of believing in "fairy tales" and "lies" and that those of us who do believe are intellectually stunted. I am starting to become enraged by this person and their attitude. I think people should be free to have whatever opinion they want but should exercise restraint when in a room with others who may not share their opinions.

 I do try to understand that bad experiences with religion in general sometimes leads people to choose to believe in nothing. I can definitely sympathize with just giving up when all you have seen and experienced is so negative and stereotypical. I have been to some churches where what they were preaching would scare you into a stupor-so I can understand when someone who is feeling manipulated by certain christian practitioners would choose to reject God altogether however, I don't understand the seething hatred that Atheist some times exude. I wish I knew what to think about all this. I feel like the enemy is just dogging me no matter what I do in regards to school and at the same time I wonder if God just wants me to leave and devote my energies to something else. I wonder if it is even right for Catholics to attend college at all (except for catholic run universities) I would love to go to a Catholic college but can't consider it until I have my AA because I didn't do well enough in H.S. to get accepted. 

 What would you do? I did write to the professor ,as has now sadly, become my custom, I don't know what if anything she will do to rectify the situation. Other than that I'm stuck. I want a higher education so badly. It is a dream that I have had all my life but I wonder if its just not a dream meant for me.

Take Care Mary M.

If the other student used the phrase “intellectually stunted” to describe people of faith, here’s what I’d do:

1. Get a copy of the student handbook or download the page(s) that deal with harrasment.
2. Speak with the Professor in private at your next available opportunity. Tell him that the other student crossed the line between academic debate and insulting personal attacks. Tell him that you expect to speak with the other student immediately about the problem and put an immediate end to it. Tell him that if he does not, you will find someone (start with the department head) who will.
3. Take dated and detailed notes when you speak to him. Make sure he sees you taking notes. He knows that people do not take notes unless they want to use the information later on.
4. Follow up. If the behavior continues, go up the chain: Department head, Dean, College Board members. If it gets this far, do the same with them as you would with the instructor: meet in person. Do not accept any less. Take notes and a copy of the relevant academic handbook information with you, including any copies of any emails sent back and forth.
5. IF and only IF you feel intimidated even in part because you are wheelchair bound, do not hesitate to mention so. Be honest about that, don’t bring it up if you don’t think it is the case. Administrators fear attention being brought to situations like these, even though you might never consider it for a moment, and as patronizing as this might sound, they see unhappy student in wheelchair=lawsuit. And even the thought of a lawsuit scares the **** out of them.

 

[kentuckyliz]

^ I work at a college and I can testify–this is true! ^

Go, be a problem!

 

[kentuckyliz]

Oops, my post started a new page!

My up-carets or whatever they’re called are referring to Newbie2’s post.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I’m a college student as well, and I’ve found that a decent number of the students are atheists here as well, though they generally haven’t been quite so obnoxious as the one you describe.

One thing you could do during discussions is, whenever this fellow hijacks the discussion for one of his tirades, you could raise your hand and make a comment that changes the subject to something more relevant to the class. This is a literature class, right? If so, it is not likely that this atheist’s comments are all that relevant to the discussion topic. If not, you could just bring the discussion back on track immediately after his rants, just ignoring him. It will likely annoy him quite a bit, as people like that often just like to hear themselves talk, but maybe he’ll get the message that he should stay on topic and not waste the class’s time.

Don’t be too intimidated by him. Overconfidence is rarely a sign of intelligence; most people like that are just desperate to find a reason to consider themselves better than everyone else. If one wanted to be psychoanalytical about it, one might speculate that he condescends others to compensate for his own insecurity.

 

[PbloPicasso]

If the other student used the phrase “intellectually stunted” to describe people of faith, here’s what I’d do:

1. Get a copy of the student handbook or download the page(s) that deal with harrasment.
2. Speak with the Professor in private at your next available opportunity. Tell him that the other student crossed the line between academic debate and insulting personal attacks. Tell him that you expect to speak with the other student immediately about the problem and put an immediate end to it. Tell him that if he does not, you will find someone (start with the department head) who will.
3. Take dated and detailed notes when you speak to him. Make sure he sees you taking notes. He knows that people do not take notes unless they want to use the information later on.
4. Follow up. If the behavior continues, go up the chain: Department head, Dean, College Board members. If it gets this far, do the same with them as you would with the instructor: meet in person. Do not accept any less. Take notes and a copy of the relevant academic handbook information with you, including any copies of any emails sent back and forth.
5. IF and only IF you feel intimidated even in part because you are wheelchair bound, do not hesitate to mention so. Be honest about that, don’t bring it up if you don’t think it is the case. Administrators fear attention being brought to situations like these, even though you might never consider it for a moment, and as patronizing as this might sound, they see unhappy student in wheelchair=lawsuit. And even the thought of a lawsuit scares the **** out of them.

Spot On!!! One of my old bosses use to call it “let’s have a come to Jesus meeting”. It’s not my favorite way to put it but it does get the point across that this is unacceptable behavior for anyone that is truly professional, including a college campus. Students have a code of conduct they agree to abide by and if not are subject to disciplinary action.

 

[Catholic90]

Evil will continue to surge forward when good people do nothing.

So, it seems your options are:

1. Do nothing and let this guy “win”.
2. Take action as many others have suggested, show your intelligence, your intestinal fortitude, your drive, your determination, and your FAITH!

 

[Erich]

One of my old bosses use to call it “let’s have a come to Jesus meeting”. It’s not my favorite way to put it but it does get the point across

Especially in this instance

 

[The_Old_Medic]

“Oh ye of little faith” is the way that Jesus would put it.

Are you ashamed to be Catholic? Is your faith so weak that you can not stand to even be next to a person that has no faith?

College can NOT become between you and your faith, unless you allow this to happen. The opinions of others do not mean a thing, if your faith is strong.

Let me give you a little analogy.

I began to take college courses in 1963, while on active duty with the US Army. I took correspondence courses, courses at Post Educational Centers, and when possible, I took courses at local colleges or Universities.

In 1968, I was taking a course at the University of Pennsylvania. The course was a History course, history from 1945 to the present. The professor was virulently anti-war and anti-military.

I had a typical GI haircut, I wore Army issued glasses and it was not hard to tell that I was a GI. I was stationed at Valley Forge General Hospital in Phoenixville, PA, where I was assigned to the neurosurgical ward.

The professor began singling me out, because it was obvious that i was a soldier. One day, he stood in front of me and asked, “Have you served in Vietnam?” I told him that I had. He stepped back, pointed at me, and asked the class, “How do you feel about having a professional killer in this class?” There was some murmuring, but nobody said a thing.

I stood up, and said to him, “I am a Medical Corpsman and my job is to save lives. I have never killed anyone in my life.” There was dead silence in the class.

After that day, I wore my Class A uniform to that class, with all of my “fruit salad”. I sat in the front row, and I made a point of asking at least one question each day (so he had to look at me).

If you have faith, then engage the people that put you down. Let them know that their scorn does not rock your faith, but that all it does is make you pray for them.

Nobody can come between you and your church, your faith, your beliefs or your standards, unless YOU allow them to do so.

 

[maryharket]

Hello Everyone-

 I was reading over everyone's post and it seems that the consensus is that I should antagonize my classmate by-among other things-finding reasons to bring up my faith or bothering him in other ways. I don't think that is very helpful. Yes, he is causing me a lot of discomfort but by aggravating him in the same way that he is aggravating me is not much of a solution. Other solutions such as taking my complaint to a higher authority are more practical. I don't want to treat this person as if they are my enemy, even if they are an enemy of my faith.

Which brings me to another concern that I have with some of the posts- my level of faith should not be measured by how much I am willing to tolerate. To assume that my faith is “weak” because I find this person offensive is way off base! I have a very strong faith and do not look for others to validate my faith, I only want the same respect that I show to others who do not share my faith to be shown to me. Just because a person finds another person’s hateful remarks unbearable does not mean that their faith is not strong. On the contrary, if I was weak in my faith I probably would let this guy convince me that all that he is saying is true or should at least be considered. I know the truth and that’s why this person is hurting me deeply.

Someone claiming that God does not exist-for me-is the same as if someone were to come to one of you one day and say that your parents are not your parents. You would be hurt and probably not believe them and any proofs they gave you would be subject to rejection. You know what you know and would be appalled if someone tried to say that most important thing in your life is a lie! So please, don’t get carried away in judging mine or anyone’s level of faith. It is not helpful and only shows me that some of us may call ourselves, Christians or Catholics but think we reserve the right to judge one another’s level of “catholic-ness” or christian-ness and that is just as hateful as what is going on in my issue.

Now I can see why Atheist are so smug in their assertions. They encounter discussions like this one and come away thinking that Christianity is all about being judgments and one upmanship! Sigh!

Take Care Mary M.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Mary,
It sounds like you already know what to do. I’ll bet you just vented here over it. I do the same thing from time to time.

God bless you.

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

I was reading over everyone’s post and it seems that the consensus is that I should antagonize my classmate

What I encouraged you to do was to speak up for yourself, not to antogonize anyone. Mine and all five posts that addressed the “intellectually stunted” comment suggested that if he really called you that you have a solid case to raise it to the professor, dean, etc. If he didn’t actually say “intellectually stunted”, what’s causing you to insult yourself in such a way?

Someone claiming that God does not exist-for me-is the same as if someone were to come to one of you one day and say that your parents are not your parents. You would be hurt and probably not believe them and any proofs they gave you would be subject to rejection.

If I were taking a college class, at work, or in a grocery store and someone who didn’t know me said, “I don’t believe your parents do exist.” I would not feel hurt. Why would I? I’m confident they exist, so their lack of belief does not shake me. If they wanted to show me DNA evidence my parents were not my parents, their evidence wouldn’t be ‘subject to rejection’ merely because there’s a tiny chance I wouldn’t like the result.

Now I can see why Atheist are so smug in their assertions

I offered you advice in a charitable spirit and you now reveal yourself to be the intolerant one, by stereotyping and insulting me and other atheists as ‘smug’. Agnostic atheists are probably the largest subset of atheists.

If you go about your life imagining people are calling you “intellectually stunted” when they’re not, rejecting evidence because you’re afraid you won’t like where it leads, and/or stereotyping or insulting people you don’t agree with–you may wind up living exactly the life that attitude deserves.

Smug - Exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one’s situation; self-righteously complacent.

Agnostic atheists - * are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they claim not to know or be able to know whether any deity exists.*

Apparently, we’re smug because we’re humble enough to admit we do not know everything about the universe…

I would meet your insult with my own, but my code of ethics wouldn’t permit that, so I’ll simply hope you’ll see the light one day, and not respond to you or your thread any further.

PS - I don’t recall what drew me to this site, but after three times this, I’ve been drawn away. Good riddance? Au revoir and happy days.