Columbarium at the Altar

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PaulfromIowa said:
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BornInMarch:
yes it is bizarre to put human remains under the altar. That would be reason enough for me to start going to a different parish.
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Do you know where St. Peter and his family are buried?
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Having been to the Scavj under St. Peter’s, I know very well where he is buried. I’d be most interested in your information as to where his “family” is buried, as I’ve never heard any reference to them, and certainly not in our Scavi tour.
 
Frankie_G said:
The point is that the body remains unaltered, whether it is in the ground or a mausoleum.
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OK. So, it’s not the columbarium that you have a problem with.

(The location you suggest they’re considering – at the altar itself – seems problematic (and, one hopes, unlikely to be approved). Nevertheless, it’s not the notion of being interred in a columbarium that has you upset.)
Also how can a priest perform a burial Mass when the body is gone by cremation?
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A few thoughts:
  • It’s not a “burial Mass”. It’s either a “Funeral Mass” or a “Funeral Liturgy outside Mass”.
  • The body isn’t ‘gone’; rather, it’s present as cremains.
  • Are you suggesting that, in those cases in which a body is not present, a Funeral Mass cannot be held? Think long and hard about the assertion you’re attempting to make… 😉
 
If you yourself have an issue with cremation, you are free to choose burial. I don’t like it for myself, that scene in James Bond was scary.

But you don’t have a right to impose your opinion on others when the Church permits it, and not just in extreme cases either. For many, it is a significant cost issue.
 
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This is not allowed under Church law. Canon 1242.

Hopefully, the bishop will not approve.
 
I’m not imposing anything. I’m merely expressing my opinion
on the matter of cremation which the Church for centuries have
prohibited.
 
BornInMarch said:
Cremation isn’t sinful in-and-of-itself. Only scattering ashes.

Apart from that, yes it is bizarre to put human remains under the alter. That would be reason enough for me to start going to a different parish.
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Before the 1960’s every Catholic altar contained at least a small relic of a saint–usually a martyr. Yes, every…single…one. If it was a consecrated altar, it had the remains of a saint.

Most of the original altars in large churches (built before 1960) were built above the bodily remains of saints. It was not just common practice, it was the usual practice. It was unusual not-to-have the body of a martyr beneath the altar.

See here http://www.conradschmitt.com/images/project/xlarge/159.jpg

Those red “pillows” inside the altar contain the bones of ancient Roman martyrs.
 
It’s not the columbarium at the altar that concerns me. It is the
acceptance of something that has been prohibited for centuries.
A Funeral Mass would be very difficult to perform without the body
Saying goodbye with a kiss would be extremely unorthodox. The ashes
could get caught between one’s teeth.
 
Frankie_G said:
It’s not the columbarium at the altar that concerns me. It is the
acceptance of something that has been prohibited for centuries.
A Funeral Mass would be very difficult to perform without the body
Saying goodbye with a kiss would be extremely unorthodox. The ashes
could get caught between one’s teeth.
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The ashes are always in an urn, or similar closed vessel.

Just because something was “prohibited for centuries” does not mean that it is wrong to do it today.

Do you know why cremation was prohibited?

First, one must understand the reason behind the law–the value that the law protects. Only then can we move to the next step of asking whether or not it would be good to change the law.
 
Frankie_G said:
A Funeral Mass would be very difficult to perform without the body

Saying goodbye with a kiss would be extremely unorthodox. The ashes

could get caught between one’s teeth.
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I find this to be a very bizarre statement. We get it, you’re against cremation. Move on.
 
I’m not sure why people refer to the sanctuary in Catholic parishes the “altar”? The altar in most Latin Rite parishes today is a table which consists of a mensa (table top or insert in table top) and the stipes (base.)

A number of priests were buried in the floor of the sanctuary of my parish church many years ago (18th Century.) This practice was common in many parts of the world but no longer is, nor is it allowed. I think if it was in my parish today, it would be a huge status symbol enjoyed more by non-Catholics/non-parishioners than those Catholics who actually attend the parish.

I hope your bishop rejects the project. Please let us know what happens.
 
Yes, you are correct. It is an old habit mixing sanctuary with altar. The practice
of having a columbarium near or within the sanctuary began in San Francisco,
which is spreading throughout the country. The pagan hippies still have sway over
the churches in San Francisco. And, yes, the bishop did approve the placing of
a columbarium at the sanctuary.
 
Gorgias said:
It’s not a “burial Mass”. It’s either a “Funeral Mass” or a “Funeral Liturgy outside Mass”.
The body isn’t ‘gone’; rather, it’s present as cremains.
Are you suggesting that, in those cases in which a body is not present, a Funeral Mass cannot be held? Think long and hard about the assertion you’re attempting to make…
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Our priest told us when the body is present, the correct term for the Eucharistic liturgy is “Mass of the Resurrection.”
When cremains present, the term is “Memorial Mass.”

I prefer the full symbolic gesture of the first option, as does the church, however I respect Mom’s wish. It’s been a year.
 
Crocus said:
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Gorgias:
It’s not a “burial Mass”. It’s either a “Funeral Mass” or a “Funeral Liturgy outside Mass”.
The body isn’t ‘gone’; rather, it’s present as cremains.
Are you suggesting that, in those cases in which a body is not present, a Funeral Mass cannot be held? Think long and hard about the assertion you’re attempting to make…
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Our priest told us when the body is present, the correct term for the Eucharistic liturgy is “Mass of the Resurrection.”
When cremains present, the term is “Memorial Mass.”
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I think he’s either pulling your leg, or confused. 😉

There is a musical setting for liturgy called the “Mass of the Resurrection”, but that’s not the ‘official’ title of the Mass itself. In the ritual book “Order of Christian Funerals”, the names given are as I noted upthread.

A “Memorial Mass” would be a Mass in memoriam of the person, other than a funeral Mass. In the Roman Missal, as part of the section of “Masses of the Dead”, there are a number of memorial Mass prayers. However, a memorial Mass is distinct from a funeral Mass. A Funeral Mass (whether with the body or with cremains) is still a “Funeral Mass”, because it’s tied to the burial/interment of the person. (For instance, the conclusion of a Funeral Mass or ‘Funeral Outside the Mass’ is not the usual blessing and dismissal – that dismissal occurs at the conclusion of the comittal.)
 
On second thought he didn’t call it Mass of the Resurrection but instead Mass of Christian Burial.

My search shows you are correct about presence of either body or cremains, as follows from osv.com (bolding mine):
Outline of the Average Catholic Funeral
A. VIGIL FOR THE DECEASED
B. MASS OF CHRISTIAN BURIAL
Introductory rites:
◗ Greeting, sprinkling of casket or cremains with holy water, placing of the pall (if customary), the entrance procession, placing of Christian symbols (if desired), and opening prayer.
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Gorgias said:
I think he’s either pulling your leg, or confused. 😉
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🙁 Sad either way. Kinda glad I didn’t know better at the time … practised humble obedience vs arguing for (naming) rights. (Sigh)

Edit added: My sister though, had greater objection to not being allowed to display mom’s photo next to the urn during mass.
 
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FrDavid96 said:
This is not allowed under Church law. Canon 1242.

Hopefully, the bishop will not approve.
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Thank you, Father. I was looking at that canon a few weeks ago when reading about canons surrounding sacred places, but couldn’t recall where exactly it was.
 
It is something that I heard on EWTN radio, that there were male and female remains found near St. Peter, thought to be his family members. I wonder if any DNA testing has been done on these remains to confirm this.
 
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