Columbarium at the Altar

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Gorgias:
It’s not a “burial Mass”. It’s either a “Funeral Mass” or a “Funeral Liturgy outside Mass”.
The body isn’t ‘gone’; rather, it’s present as cremains.
Are you suggesting that, in those cases in which a body is not present, a Funeral Mass cannot be held? Think long and hard about the assertion you’re attempting to make…
Our priest told us when the body is present, the correct term for the Eucharistic liturgy is “Mass of the Resurrection.”
When cremains present, the term is “Memorial Mass.”

I prefer the full symbolic gesture of the first option, as does the church, however I respect Mom’s wish. It’s been a year.
Actually “Mass of the Resurrection” is precisely the wrong term for a funeral Mass of any kind. That term is reserved for the Masses on Easter Sunday and the Octave. The Holy See actually very specifically forbids using that term for funeral Masses in a document about 10 years ago. I’m searching for it, but can’t find the reference right now.

A funeral Mass is an opportunity for the faithful to pray for the deceased. It is not a canonization.

If the remains (either whole or cremated) are present, it’s a funeral Mass (which is itself a subset of “Masses for the Dead”)

If the remains are not present, it’s properly called a Mass for the Dead (Missa pro defunctis). That’s the official term used in the Missal. Other terms can also be used, such as Requiem Mass. Yes, some use the term “memorial Mass.”

I avoid using the term “memorial” because that is too easily confused with a “memorial” or a saint in the calendar. Also, it’s insufficient. We aren’t there to “memorialize” the deceased, but to pray for the deceased. As I said, though, many people do use the term. It’s my personal preference not to use it.
 
Yes, you are correct. It is an old habit mixing sanctuary with altar. The practice

of having a columbarium near or within the sanctuary began in San Francisco,

which is spreading throughout the country. The pagan hippies still have sway over

the churches in San Francisco. And, yes, the bishop did approve the placing of

a columbarium at the sanctuary.
You are mistaken. Your comments about “pagan hippies” are offensive.

The columbarium was built in the former friar’s chapel at St. Dominic’s in San Francisco which is physically located behind the church’s high altar. It’s a separate space from the sanctuary/nave of the church.

This was built with Archbishop Salvatore Joseph Cordileone in charge of the Archdiocese. He is a very solid and orthodox churchman.

 
Actually “Mass of the Resurrection” is precisely the wrong term for a funeral Mass of any kind. That term is reserved for the Masses on Easter Sunday and the Octave. The Holy See actually very specifically forbids using that term for funeral Masses in a document about 10 years ago. I’m searching for it, but can’t find the reference right now.
@FrDavid96,
In my reply to @Gorgias I corrected my memory, in actuality the priest called it “Mass of Christian Burial” not “Mass of the Resurrection.” 😊 My bad.
 
You are mistaken. Your comments about “pagan hippies” are offensive.

The columbarium was built in the former friar’s chapel at St. Dominic’s in San Francisco which is physically located behind the church’s high altar. It’s a separate space from the sanctuary/nave of the church.

This was built with Archbishop Salvatore Joseph Cordileone in charge of the Archdiocese. He is a very solid and orthodox churchman.

‘Eternal life condos’ at St. Dominic’s | The New Fillmore
I have to say that it makes me uncomfortable.

It comes too close (for me) to encouraging cremation by sending the message that if one chooses cremation, that person gets to be interred in the “special place” whereas those who choose full body burial are left outside (both literally and figuratively).

In my own diocese, parishes are forbidden to build columbarium niches in any way that gives them prominence over actual graves. It’s one thing to tolerate cremation, it’s another to outright encourage it.

I’m just not comfortable with what I’m reading there.
 
@FrDavid96,
In my reply to @Gorgias I corrected my memory, in actuality the priest called it “Mass of Christian Burial” not “Mass of the Resurrection.” 😊 My bad.
OK. Big difference!

Certainly “Mass of Christian Burial” is another term. There are others I just cannot recall at the moment.

That was an easy one that I probably should have thought to mention the first time around.

I still cannot find the reference. It’s out there somewhere, I just can’t find it. I am certain though that the Vatican said a big “don’t do it” to calling funerals “Mass of the Resurrection.” Maybe someone else can find it.
 
320 spots under an altar for urns isn’t worth building, it would just become a race to purchase a space before places run out. An all it is going to do is give the impression that those who are interred there some how are recieving some kind of special privilage from God or some other non sense that the person is getting some kind of bonus that others may not have. Or at the very least that the person was rich enough to purchase a spot versus others who couldn’t.

It is a terrible idea all around and sounds nothing more like a stunt to raise money.

If anything parishes could take a look at their physical properity on site and determine if it would be prudent set aside some of the land for a cemetery. Though I doubt that would happen either, I tend to see plenty of available physical land on church property that just goes empty , an more often than not i suspect that a Bishop keeps it as such in the event the church is closed, it becomes easier to sell land that isn’t built upon versus that which is.
 
320 spots under an altar for urns isn’t worth building, it would just become a race to purchase a space before places run out. An all it is going to do is give the impression that those who are interred there some how are recieving some kind of special privilage from God or some other non sense that the person is getting some kind of bonus that others may not have. Or at the very least that the person was rich enough to purchase a spot versus others who couldn’t.

It is a terrible idea all around and sounds nothing more like a stunt to raise money.

If anything parishes could take a look at their physical properity on site and determine if it would be prudent set aside some of the land for a cemetery. Though I doubt that would happen either, I tend to see plenty of available physical land on church property that just goes empty , an more often than not i suspect that a Bishop keeps it as such in the event the church is closed, it becomes easier to sell land that isn’t built upon versus that which is.
It’s not “under an altar.” Just out of curiosity, where should parishioners be buried? There’s no property “on site” to build a cemetery – or even a columbarium outside the church.

I suspect those 320 niches collectively sold for between $1,600,000 and $3,200,000. Quite possibly more. Excellent income to add to the parish’s facilities maintenance endowment.
 
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Having tombs under or near the altar is not unusual.

Cremation, however IS.

In Orthodoxy, we still forbid Cremation generally (of course, there are some places where Caesar has forced it upon the Church like Japan, and in the cases of a plague or some other circumstance it could be permitted), and discourage embalming (in some places it is forbidden).

It Depends is often the answer here, but it is definitely not just “an option.” But something that is undertaken for serious reasons, like the above.
 
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Well Frankie the O.P stated the idea is to build a Columbarium " AT" the church’s altar, so I guess it is time to be technical and define the location of " AT", does that mean under, off to the side, in front or behind.

Really doesn’t matter,

an everything else i said still stands, if a church parish is so small that it can only 320 of the deceased for a cool 1-3 million a pop, it becomes quite obvious doing so isn’t to benefit " parishioners " because only 320 people can be interred. Less we are talking that the entire community is 320 people and this is some remote location and everyone just wants to be interred inside a church when they die and leave all their money to the bishop of the diocese, then that is their perogative.

It would make more sense to just buy property in the community through raising funds by the diocese, to have a Catholic Cemetary with a Columbarium on site, it could be opened to the public and then you are creating more income instead of just limiting income to parishioners and the well endowed out of the 320 people who can afford it. Though I would guess that the area in question already has a cemetery, and a new one isn’t needed or there isn’t enough interest by the local catholics in the diocese to have such a cemetery.

An to try an claim that 1-3 million is good enough of a reason to have a private Columbarium inside a catholic church for only 320 rich people so that a tiny parish can have funds for facilities maintence, come on, ya already said there is no extra property or room. less you want to argue that the money would be used to buy a bigger property to make a bigger church and then the columbarium would be moved to said new property where a cemetery would also be on site.

In the end it is just a money making scheme is all it sounds to be. An I am extremely skeptical that the suggestion of it even being made is real. When you have that much money on the line that is all the issue become about, Money, and who gets access to it and decides what to do with it.

I would take a paupers grave any day than do something as sick as to pay any where near a million dollars for a spot to be interred inside a church. It is a sick and ridiculous notion to do such a thing at a religious institution for only the rich. Plus if a parish is that thirsty to make millions all they have to do is pander to the rich and ask for such a donation and do what slick talkers do, talk about how worthy it is to donate such a large sum, how much good it would do, how their name would be on a shiny plaque some where and that it would forever be known as such n such donated all their money so we could build and do x, y, and z. An then what ever priest, abbot, bishop or cardnial who goes to sell such a story gives the impression that one is earning some special favor with God because all of a sudden God an the Church has this giant interest in what can be done with a couple of million.

So you turned the issue into money and hence how my response took a turn about money.
 
Having tombs under or near the altar is not unusual.

Cremation, however IS.

In Orthodoxy, we still forbid Cremation generally (of course, there are some places where Caesar has forced it upon the Church like Japan, and in the cases of a plague or some other circumstance it could be permitted), and discourage embalming (in some places it is forbidden).

It Depends is often the answer here, but it is definitely not just “an option.” But something that is undertaken for serious reasons, like the above.
Yet you allow for divorce which along with cremation shows just how different Catholicism and Orthodoxy is on many practical issues.
 
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Sometimes we “allow” Cremation too. Perhaps you missed the part where while the general rule is natural burial, I said that exceptions are made on occasion, depending.

Cremation is supposed to be an act of Economy, due to certain circumstances. It is certainly not supposed to be the norm. and traditionally was even more strictly forbidden, even in your Tradition. Your backhanded slap at us over Ecclesial Divorce, which isn’t even what is being discussed here has no bearing on the issue.
 
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an everything else i said still stands, if a church parish is so small that it can only 320 of the deceased for a cool 1-3 million a pop…
The church is not small. There’s just no excess land. 320 niches isn’t that small for a single parish columbarium. Check your math and then check what I actually posted. $1-3M/pop is ridiculous. Those are YOUR numbers. Here is what I actually posted:

“I suspect those 320 niches collectively sold for between $1,600,000 and $3,200,000. Quite possibly more. Excellent income to add to the parish’s facilities maintenance endowment.”
It would make more sense to just buy property in the community through raising funds by the diocese, to have a Catholic Cemetary with a Columbarium on site, it could be opened to the public and then you are creating more income instead of just limiting income to parishioners
LOL! Do you have any idea how much “property” would cost in San Francisco if you could find any for sale? It wouldn’t matter anyway. There really aren’t any cemeteries in SF based on local laws.
An to try an claim that 1-3 million is good enough of a reason to have a private Columbarium inside a catholic church for only 320 rich people so that a tiny parish
You’re talking about that which you do not know. It’s not a tiny parish. It’s not a “private” columbarium – it’s open to any parishioner. You comments about “the money would be used to buy a bigger property to make a bigger church” is ridiculous. You shouldn’t comment on things before doing your own research.
In the end it is just a money making scheme is all it sounds to be. An I am extremely skeptical that the suggestion of it even being made is real.
No, it’s about providing a place for parishioners to eventually be buried.
I would take a paupers grave any day than do something as sick as to pay any where near a million dollars for a spot to be interred inside a church. It is a sick and ridiculous notion to do such a thing at a religious institution for only the rich.
Who is paying a millions dollars to be buried? I suspect the niches are $5-10K. Your notion that they are doing this for the $$$ is very misplaced. Here is a photo of the “tiny parish”:


Saint Dominic Parish, San Francisco, California
So you turned the issue into money and hence how my response took a turn about money.
No, YOU did, without knowing anything about the project. All you had to do was read the article I posted. Then you would see how…difficult some of your posted ideas are.
 
Sometimes we “allow” Cremation too. Perhaps you missed the part where while the general rule is natural burial, I said that exceptions are made on occasion, depending.

Cremation is supposed to be an act of Economy, due to certain circumstances. It is certainly not supposed to be the norm. and traditionally was even more strictly forbidden, even in your Tradition. Your backhanded slap at us over Ecclesial Divorce, which isn’t even what is being discussed here has no bearing on the issue.
It shows that there are differences between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox state churches. I would be willing to wager there are also big differences within Orthodoxy between the different state churches and parts of the world when it comes to burial.
 
There are about 4 bishops buried under the floors of my Cathedral, and in the three altars there are relics of at least 3 Saints.
@FrDavid96

We also have a piece of flattened Gold set in two main cathedral doors in glass, Any idea what that’s about? The Cathedral is one of the oldest in Australia.
 
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I already said that exceptions are made in different ways. I mentioned the Church in Japan, where Cremation is mandated by secular law. What part of that do you not understand? We adapt to each place we are in while trying to maintain the integrity of the Faith as best we can. In some places Cremation is allowed under certain circumstances. In other places it is forbidden strictly. TRADITIONALLY, Cremation is forbidden. This was the UNIVERSAL Apostolic Teaching, East and West.

Again, I don’t see what your deal is. Why the hostility?
 
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At means to the side facing the parishioners. The columbarium is the idea of
the church’s parish council with the blessings of the parish priest and bishop.
The point of the columbarium is to promote cremation as superior to the old
traditional method of being buried. A parishioner can visit a departed love one
during Mass and pray for him or her while the departed receives the blessings
of the Mass. Unfortunately, the body has been completely destroyed, which
casts doubts on the possibility of being resurrected. The columbarium becomes
a distraction from the Mass. This is about tradition being replaced by pagan novelties.
Money is not an issue.
 
I already said that exceptions are made in different ways. I mentioned the Church in Japan, where Cremation is mandated by secular law. What part of that do you not understand? We adapt to each place we are in while trying to maintain the integrity of the Faith as best we can. In some places Cremation is allowed under certain circumstances. In other places it is forbidden strictly. TRADITIONALLY, Cremation is forbidden. This was the UNIVERSAL Apostolic Teaching, East and West.

Again, I don’t see what your deal is. Why the hostility?
I’m not being “hostile.” I’m just pointing out there are differences between the different churches. Another big difference you just illustrated is the difference in how Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy “adapts” to differing secular pressures.
 
At means to the side facing the parishioners. The columbarium is the idea of

the church’s parish council with the blessings of the parish priest and bishop.

The point of the columbarium is to promote cremation as superior to the old

traditional method of being buried.
A parishioner can visit a departed love one

during Mass and pray for him or her while the departed receives the blessings

of the Mass. Unfortunately, the body has been completely destroyed, which

casts doubts on the possibility of being resurrected. The columbarium becomes

a distraction from the Mass.
This is about tradition being replaced by pagan novelties.

Money is not an issue.
Nope, no source that I read says that. That’s your personal opinion.

Also, why do they bury bishops inside of Catholic churches even today if doing so would be a “distraction from the Mass”?
 
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Burying Bishops inside their Cathedral. Where their Bishop seat was, is a very different topic. Please do not conflate the two, Duesenberg.
 
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