Combining Vespers with Mass

[stephraim]

When combining Vespers with Mass, the Magnificat is sung “after communion with its communion song” and before the Prayer after Communion (cf. GILOTH, no. 94). My questions is: Does everyone stand and sign themselves as usual during the singing of the Magnificat, and is there an incensation of altar, priest and congregation during it?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

When combining Vespers with Mass, the Magnificat is sung “after communion with its communion song” and before the Prayer after Communion (cf. GILOTH, no. 94). My questions is: Does everyone stand and sign themselves as usual during the singing of the Magnificat, and is there an incensation of altar, priest and congregation during it?

Yes, we would still stand. We stand because it is a Gospel Canticle. Censing during the Magnificat is optional anyway.

 

[stephraim]

That’s what I thought, but just wanted to check. Thanks.

 

[AJV]

I think actually there is there room for interpretation in the other direction. A general principle seems to be that the gestures and postures of the Mass are generally observed with parts of the LOTH added in according to their function. Thus the psalms are viewed as preparatory, the intercessions take the place of the Prayers of the Faithful, the Concluding Prayer is either the same as the Opening Prayer of the Mass, or is replaced by it, etc.

Now, in a stand alone celebration of the LOTH, the Gospel Canticle is enhanced with the sign of the cross, incensing, standing etc. because it takes the place of the Gospel as the culmination of the hour. This does not seem to be the case at Mass, where the Gospel is read. Rather, its function seems to be more as a song of praise and thanksgiving after Communion (cf. GIRM 88, Tres Abhinc Annos 15). Thus it seems that one could make an argument for omitting both the sign of the cross, and the standing posture. As for incensing, I am pretty sure that that would receive a negative answer, since it seems opposed to the general principles of the celebration, where the altar has already been incensed twice, and a third incensing immediately so close to the dismissal seems odd, to say the least.

 

[stephraim]

That makes a lot of sense, too.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

GIRM #88 makes no reference to the position one adopts. One may argue that this paragraph may not have been composed with the singing of the Magnificat from the Office of Vespers in mind. Tres abhinc annos #15 is similar in direction to GIRM #88 and the Magnificat is not listed as one of its suggestions.

The section in GILH only tells us how to combine Mass and Vespers but it does not give any indications as to posture, etc.

GILH #138 states that the Gospel canticles should be given the same solemnity and dignity as is usual for hearing of the Gospel. GILH #261 says the altar may be censed, so censing the altar wouldn’t be obligatory. In public celebrations, GILH # 263 c) says all should stand during the Gospel canticle.

While I agree censing the altar at this point may seem odd one could argue that there are other liturgies associated with Mass where incensation takes place at other points than normal during Mass.

 

[AJV]

GIRM #88 makes no reference to the position one adopts. One may argue that this paragraph may not have been composed with the singing of the Magnificat from the Office of Vespers in mind. Tres abhinc annos #15 is similar in direction to GIRM #88 and the Magnificat is not listed as one of its suggestions.

Oh, indeed. I was referring to the paragraphs to support my position that placing the Gospel Canticle in this position is a reflection of its character of Thanksgiving

The section in GILH only tells us how to combine Mass and Vespers but it does not give any indications as to posture, etc.

GILH #138 states that the Gospel canticles should be given the same solemnity and dignity as is usual for hearing of the Gospel. GILH #261 says the altar may be censed, so censing the altar wouldn’t be obligatory. In public celebrations, GILH # 263 c) says all should stand during the Gospel canticle.

While I agree censing the altar at this point may seem odd one could argue that there are other liturgies associated with Mass where incensation takes place at other points than normal during Mass.

True, but I would argue that the GILH section is directed toward a standalone celebration and does not really provide instructions for combinations. Though, as I noted earlier and as you say, it is only conjecture, since it’s not definitive from either the GIRM or the GILH.

IIRC, the PNAC in Rome has one of these celebrations once a year, does it not? [or perhaps I’m confusing it with another seminary] It would be interesting to know what they do.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

IIRC, the PNAC in Rome has one of these celebrations once a year, does it not? [or perhaps I’m confusing it with another seminary] It would be interesting to know what they do.

I find it interesting that there are things the Church allows, e.g. combining Mass an Vespers but then doesn’t seem to provide clear rubrics for how to do so.

There’s a Trappist abbey of which I know. Their weekday Mass is combined with Lauds. I have contacted them by email to find out what they do during the recitation of the Benedictus. I don’t know if they’ll even reply to my email. May be if they do we can glean some information as to how to recite a Gospel canticle in these circumstances.

I don’t know anywhere that combines Mass and Vespers to ask them how they do it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I believe this is so because the Vatican has frowned on the celebration of Mass with Morning/Evening Prayer in a public setting. I do not recall which document said this but given some time I may be able to find it.

It is only done this way on a regular basis within religious institutes and they have their own ways of doing it so there is no need for a strong set of rubrical instructions as it is really only done privately by these groups.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I believe this is so because the Vatican has frowned on the celebration of Mass with Morning/Evening Prayer in a public setting. I do not recall which document said this but given some time I may be able to find it.

I, for one, would be interested in the document if you have the opportunity to find it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I, for one, would be interested in the document if you have the opportunity to find it.

I know I was told this when I was at the theologate, that the practice of celebrating the Liturgy of the Hours with Mass was frowned upon, if not out right denied, in parishes but that religious institutes do so according to their rules and constitutions.

At this time I do not recall if I was given a document as a reference or if I even asked for one (it depends on who told me this at the time if I would request a document or not).

I did some limited searching now and could not find anything. Hopefully if there is such a document someone out there will recall it and help me out. Otherwise I will continue to work but I will admit that I may be off on this one.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I know I was told this when I was at the theologate, that the practice of celebrating the Liturgy of the Hours with Mass was frowned upon, if not out right denied, in parishes but that religious institutes do so according to their rules and constitutions.

At this time I do not recall if I was given a document as a reference or if I even asked for one (it depends on who told me this at the time if I would request a document or not).

I did some limited searching now and could not find anything. Hopefully if there is such a document someone out there will recall it and help me out. Otherwise I will continue to work but I will admit that I may be off on this one.

To be candid Brother, I’m more interested in the rationale than the ruling, if you catch my drift? Can you recall the reason why this is frowned on? Of course, I don’t want you to think I doubt you I’m just interested as to why this decision came to be. As you will be aware the GILH contains some rubrics for doing it and I can’t pick up any “tone” from the GILH that you can do this but we’d rather you didn’t. Or, are those rubrics there for religious? I’m not 100% sure but I thought most religious had their own “breviary” so wouldn’t be following the same “breviary” we laity follow.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

To be candid Brother, I’m more interested in the rationale than the ruling, if you catch my drift? Can you recall the reason why this is frowned on? Of course, I don’t want you to think I doubt you I’m just interested as to why this decision came to be. As you will be aware the GILH contains some rubrics for doing it and I can’t pick up any “tone” from the GILH that you can do this but we’d rather you didn’t. Or, are those rubrics there for religious? I’m not 100% sure but I thought most religious had their own “breviary” so wouldn’t be following the same “breviary” we laity follow.

I pick up a different tone from the GILH.
93. In particular cases, if circumstances require, it is possible to link an hour more closely with Mass when there is a celebration of the liturgy of the hours in public or in common, according to the norms that follow, provided the Mass and the hour belong do to one and the same office. Care must be taken, however, that this does not result in harm to pastoral work, especially on Sundays.

The reason I would see the need for the rubrics is that religious institutes do so, hence the “in common” included within this paragraph.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I pick up a different tone from the GILH.
93. In particular cases, if circumstances require, it is possible to link an hour more closely with Mass when there is a celebration of the liturgy of the hours in public or in common, according to the norms that follow, provided the Mass and the hour belong do to one and the same office. Care must be taken, however, that this does not result in harm to pastoral work, especially on Sundays.

The reason I would see the need for the rubrics is that religious institutes do so, hence the “in common” included within this paragraph.

OK, I see that tone taking that single paragraph, which I’ve never dwelt on but read it in the whole section so obviously never picked up on the tone before. Now, I’m either being very naïve or plain stupid but I still can’t understand why it’s an issue or problem. What harm could it do to pastoral work on Sundays? I would have thought that as religious devote a considerable part of their day to the Divine Office they would be able to separate all the Offices and Mass. In a parish where there may be less time for the Office and Masses it would be more “convenient” to combine them.

 

[OraLabora]

OK, I see that tone taking that single paragraph, which I’ve never dwelt on but read it in the whole section so obviously never picked up on the tone before. Now, I’m either being very naïve or plain stupid but I still can’t understand why it’s an issue or problem. What harm could it do to pastoral work on Sundays? I would have thought that as religious devote a considerable part of their day to the Divine Office they would be able to separate all the Offices and Mass. In a parish where there may be less time for the Office and Masses it would be more “convenient” to combine them.

It’s extremely rare to have celebration of the Hours in parish, except for the occasional celebration of Lauds or Vespers. It’s probably more common in cathedrals.

In monasteries, there is often a need to combine hours with the Mass or occasionally with each other. Many factors come into play: for instance the type of work done may require a longer stretch without interruption; an ageing community might find it difficult to rise at 4 am for Vigils, so they need to either combine it with Compline, or move it closer to daybreak which squeezes the other offices together, or the monastic community can be tied to an external apostolate such as teaching, in which case the Mass is often early and tied to Lauds so that the monks can go off and teach, where they can recite Terce, Sext and None during breaks throughout the day.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

… an ageing community might find it difficult to rise at 4 am for Vigils …

I found this comment interesting. First, let me be clear: I fully believe what you say, especially as I know you have a close association with a monastery. The reason I found it interesting is that I read a book about the Cistercians of the Strict Observance. In it they said older members of the community often needed less sleep and that it was novices and younger monks who were encouraged to get their full quota of sleep.

I don’t know if you can answer my other question, which I don’t think has been answered. Why does the Church ‘frown’ on the combining of an Office with Mass outside of religious communities?