Comdom usage with prostitute

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Sex with a prostitute isn’t marriage and it has nothing to do with family, except in as much as it is a sin against the family. Use of a condom with a prostitute isn’t the same as in marriage because the whole concept of marriage and family are completely gone from the act. There is no openness to life (which basically means openness to family).
“Open to life” = “procreative” in moral theology.

Sex must be both unitive and procreative to be licit. Sex with a prostitute is procreative under normal circumstances. Use of contraception destroys the procreative aspect of the sex act and compounds one sin on the other.
 
“Open to life” = “procreative” in moral theology.

Sex must be both unitive and procreative to be licit. Sex with a prostitute is procreative under normal circumstances. Use of contraception destroys the procreative aspect of the sex act and compounds one sin on the other.
Openness to life means openness to family. Procreation has nothing to do with prostitution. The whole act has been completely degraded already. Procreation, or the creation of new life, has already been removed from the act. It may remain biologically and materially, but it is completely gone from the context of the act.
 
Openness to life means openness to family. Procreation has nothing to do with prostitution. The whole act has been completely degraded already. Procreation, or the creation of new life, has already been removed from the act. It may remain biologically and materially, but it is completely gone from the context of the act.
What planet are you on anyway? Cite your sources and perhaps I will begin to believe you are rational in this argument. Well, you refuse to state your religion, so we cannot assume you are Catholic and therefore your arguments have zero merit in this forum about Catholic morality anyway.
 
What planet are you on anyway? Cite your sources and perhaps I will begin to believe you are rational in this argument. Well, you refuse to state your religion, so we cannot assume you are Catholic and therefore your arguments have zero merit in this forum about Catholic morality anyway.
My arguments are quite rational and they deal quite well with the context of catholic theology. Do you honestly take offense at my posts? Everything the Church has ever said about sex places it in the context of marriage and family. No one can even question it.

To be clear I am Catholic and I have a masters in catholic theology from Franciscan university. Are you satisfied? Or do I have to be a priest now to have credible arguments according to you? Maybe a canon lawyer? You have already asserted that you are only going to accept arguments from certain people.
 
Everything the Church has ever said about sex places it in the context of marriage and family.
Untrue. The Church has spoken volumes on the varieties of sex outside of marriage. Homosexuality and masturbation, to make two examples. How can you possibly discuss masturbation in the context of “marriage and family”? Marriage makes no difference to this sin of masturbation. A married man who masturbates has committed the same sin, and it is for this reason: his sex act is neither unitive nor procreative. For the sake of argument, if you want to imagine a wife masturbating her husband, you might say this is unitive, but you cannot call it procreative, and it is exactly the same sin as using a condom: it has destroyed that aspect of the sex.
 
Sex is always in the context of marriage. The reason why masturbation and extra marital sex are sin is because they remove sex from its context. Sex is between a man and his wife, not between him and his hand (excuse the graphic imagery but it was there already) or some other man. Sex is always in the context of marriage and family, and sexuality outside that context is a distortion. The church might speak of homosexuality or some other issue, but it always comes back to the nature of sex and its context in marriage.

The family and communion are the basic ideas of Catholicism. They are the context in which everything can be interpreted. The Spirit of Catholicism by Karl Adam is a good source that makes this clear. Scott Hahn makes this clear in his books.
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
Contraception is INTRINSICALLY EVIL. It is NEVER acceptable. Your advice to use a condom with a prostitute is tantamount to counseling others to sin. As a Catholic with a degree in theology, you should know better. Shame on you!
 
Contraception is INTRINSICALLY EVIL. It is NEVER acceptable. Your advice to use a condom with a prostitute is tantamount to counseling others to sin. As a Catholic with a degree in theology, you should know better. Shame on you!
Your quote says nothing different than what I have already said. It affirms what I have said about sex and its context in marriage. The difference between the use of contraception in the example in your quote from the CCC and the subject of the thread is that the CCC example starts with sex between a husband and wife, and consequently the proper context and then adds contraception. In other words it takes a licit act and makes it illicit. The subject of this thread starts with sex with a prostitute and then adds condom use to it. It starts with an illicit act. The act remains the same.

Yes, I advise them to use a condom. They have already violated the moral teachings of the Church. It doesn’t change the act at this point. Besides that, the point of a condom in this situation isn’t contraception but rather to avoid disease. If you don’t want a disease you better use a condom if you are already determined to have sex with a prostitute. There is nothing unitive or procreative about sex with someone you are paying to have sex with you.

If you want to make your point you are going to have to establish the distinction between two acts here. I am not convinced that there is a moral difference between sex with a prostitute, and sex with a prostitute with a condom. This is partly because I am not convinced that the use of a condom is an act in itself. It is the frustration of an act; it makes a licit act illicit. In the context of the thread, the act is already illicit, so a condom doesn’t change it.
 
A few questions for those who think the use of a condom compounds the sin of sex with a prostitute:

Is it a sin to put a condom on if you aren’t planning on having sex?
Would the use of a condom compound the sin of masturbation (I realize the unlikeliness that someone would use a condom for this)?
Does use of a condom compound the sin of homosexuality?
 
Paul VI wrote Humanae Vitae, which predicts some consequences of ABC.
Humanae Vitae:
Consequences of Artificial Methods
  1. Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.
Finally, careful consideration should be given to the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law. Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife.
Quite prescient, isn’t it? The latter paragraph predicts the HHS mandate accurately. The former explains why the use of contraception with prostitutes only perpetuates the evil of that industry. When the women are freed of the consequences of pregnancy and STIs from promiscuous sex, the men feel justified in expanding and extending the scourges of pimping, pandering, prostitution, sexual slavery, human trafficking, physical abuse, abortion, and all the other offenses which go hand-in-hand. This is the context of prostitution, not one of marriage and family, but one of male aggression and domination, using women as objects, seeing them as inferior, and throwing them away when we are done.
 
Paul VI wrote Humanae Vitae, which predicts some consequences of ABC.

Quite prescient, isn’t it? The latter paragraph predicts the HHS mandate accurately. The former explains why the use of contraception with prostitutes only perpetuates the evil of that industry. When the women are freed of the consequences of pregnancy and STIs from promiscuous sex, the men feel justified in expanding and extending the scourges of pimping, pandering, prostitution, sexual slavery, human trafficking, physical abuse, abortion, and all the other offenses which go hand-in-hand. This is the context of prostitution, not one of marriage and family, but one of male aggression and domination, using women as objects, seeing them as inferior, and throwing them away when we are done.
I have no sympathy for your idea of ‘male aggression’. Take responsibility for your own actions. Don’t blame a man because a woman sells her body. I am sick and tired of this obsession with blaming everything on men. If that is truely your approach, then you really are inferior because you aren’t responsible for your actions like a man is.

That aside, your quote doesn’t really deal with the subject. No one disputes that the acceptance of contraception has changed the perception of sex and the nature of the relationship between men and women.

And no, it still remains in the context of marriage. Sex with a prostitute is illicit in all cases. The pope may have mentioned sex with a prostitute, but it always comes back to marriage. He doesn’t consider the morality of using contraception with a prostitute in this paragraph. He only mentions that it could lead to a degradation of a woman and how she is treated.

Do you think paying a woman for sex is any less degrading if you don’t use a condom while you do it? You are paying a stranger to have sex with you, and you probably won’t say more than two words to her. The whole situation is degrading.
 
I am going to have to bow out of his discussion. I have spent way too much time on these forums today and I am wasting time that could be better spent. So this is my last post.

Before I go though. The reason I asked the questions in post 48 was to discern whether you think the use of a condom is a distinct act in itself. If it doesn’t compound the sin of masturbation or of homosexuality, then it isn’t the use of the condom that is wrong but the context that it is in. I said above that it frustrates a licit act and makes it illicit, that is why it’s use is illicit. But it doesn’t affect an act that is already illicit.

You quoted Paul VI as saying that it could lead to the lack of respect for a woman. That may be the case, but we are already long past that point. The question of the OP assumes that you are going to have sex with the prostitute, which is already long past what the pope was warning about. There is no sense of the dignity of the prostitute. No one who has sex with a prostitute does it because he respects her emotionally and spiritually. He does it because he wants sex. Whether you use a condom or not, the act is exactly the same when it comes to respect for her.
 
Blessed John Paul the Great was also crystal clear in Theology of the Body.
Theology of the Body:
  1. Man is precisely a person because he is master of himself and has self-control. Indeed, insofar as he is master of himself he can give himself to the other. And it is this dimension—the dimension of the liberty of the gift—which becomes essential and decisive for that language of the body, in which man and woman reciprocally express themselves in the conjugal union. Granted that this is communion of persons, the language of the body should be judged according to the criterion of truth. It is precisely this criterion which the Encyclical Humanae Vitae recalls, as is confirmed by the passages quoted previously.
  2. According to the criterion of this truth, which should be expressed in the language of the body, the conjugal act signifies not only love, but also potential fecundity. Therefore it cannot be deprived of its full and adequate significance by artificial means. In the conjugal act it is not licit to separate the unitive aspect from the procreative aspect, because both the one and the other pertain to the intimate truth of the conjugal act. The one is activated together with the other and in a certain sense the one by means of the other. This is what the Encyclical teaches (cf. HV 12). Therefore, in such a case the conjugal act, deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love.
The conjugal act has an interior truth whether it is inside marriage or not. What better way to disrespect and destroy love for a woman who is already driven to sex for money than contracepting too? Many pimps probably force them to take birth control pills. Certainly they are coerced into abortions when (not if) these methods fail. This is the context of prostitution. Moral depravity in the service of unfettered capitalism. Condoms are insult to injury. What would the Holy Father say? What would Blessed John Paul the Great say?
 
A few questions for those who think the use of a condom compounds the sin of sex with a prostitute:

Is it a sin to put a condom on if you aren’t planning on having sex?
Would the use of a condom compound the sin of masturbation (I realize the unlikeliness that someone would use a condom for this)?
Does use of a condom compound the sin of homosexuality?
I imagine that if one puts it on but does not use it, without any sinful preparation for it, it is not a violation. (Buying it or trying it could be scandal.)

Masturbation and sodomy are already unnatural vice, as would be use of a condom with the opposite sex.
 
A few questions for those who think the use of a condom compounds the sin of sex with a prostitute:

Is it a sin to put a condom on if you aren’t planning on having sex?
Would the use of a condom compound the sin of masturbation (I realize the unlikeliness that someone would use a condom for this)?
Does use of a condom compound the sin of homosexuality?
Why would one use a condom if not having sex.
In masturbation there is no procreation so a condom has no value
In homosexuality there is no procreation so it doesn’t matter.

These are my opinions.
 
Does one have to confess using a condom with a hooker, or would it suffice to simply confess the sexual act? As a practical matter, using a condom with a hooker would be advisable-- of course I do not sanction having sex with hookers!— one may reasonably say that it could be more potentially dangerous not to use 1.
What on earth were you thinking?
 
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Is sex with a prostitute, technically, a sin?

That can’t be right.

I mean, you don’t count what the other person does as your own sin, do you?
If you were having sex with someone who robbed a bank…let’s say your husband or wife robbed a bank and you were having sex with them…you yourself wouldn’t actually be sinning at all, I imagine.

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If you paid your wife $50 for each sex act, there is nothing wrong with that?

Re: condoms for masturbation and sodomy
Masturbation and sodomy are not procreative, so there is no additional sin in using a condom here. The reason using a condom is sinful is because it destroys the procreative aspect of sex. This is clearly and unambiguously taught in Humanae Vitae and Theology of the Body which I have already quoted.
 
But someone listed the sex partner being a prostitute as a separate “sin” all on it’s own-- for the non-prostitute person.

In other words…if i was having sex outside of marriage, that is one sin.
If the person i was having sex with is a prostitute, that is two sins.
Right.

From the Catechism:
2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Notice the particular sin here is the violation of the chastity to which baptism calls all of us. Yet, is this distinct from the sin of the sexual activity itself? Again, from the Catechism:
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
This is in the section entitled “offenses against charity.” It is sinful in a different way that prostitution is sinful: namely, that it is contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality.
2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery.
2381 Adultery is an injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents’ stable union.
This is in the section entitled “offenses against marriage.” Adultery is sinful, again, in a way that’s different than prostitution: it’s an offense against one’s marital commitment as well as against his spouse.

Therefore, frequenting a prostitute – whether it’s a married person or a single person who is the client – is a sin that is distinct from the sin of the actual sexual acts that occur.
-But if you are having sex outside marriage, what does it matter what the other person is doing separate from you? Your own “sin” is the sex without marriage bit.
The prostitute part is their own “sin”.
No; as the catechism demonstrates, the ‘prostitute part’ isn’t just a sin of the prostitute, but of the client, as well!
By that same token, does having sex outside of marriage with a non-prostitute make it any less a sin?
It’s not a question of ‘more’ or ‘less’; it’s a question of number of grave sins committed. Looking at grave sins and asking “is this more or less important?” is an erroneous approach to understanding mortal sin… 😉
 
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