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aidanbradypop
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LolIn this situation I would’ve been *sorely *tempted to shout after him: “I pray to the Blessed Virgin too! Quick! Run! It might be catching!!”
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Gary_Sheldrake
Guest
Is that true? If the pastor is inviting you to have a personal relationship as well, how is he saying that God is his and his alone? Does the fact that he doesn’t understand our faith tradition as it applies to the Eucharist mean he’s not sincere? It probably means that he doesn’t understand something about us, and perhaps we don’t understand something about him. Perhaps there’s room for us to share what we believe for the sake of mutual growth. For instance, I am Catholic and I believe in the physical presence of Christ at the mass. But I also feel that I have a personal relationship with God. So a person asking that question at my door would get the answer he was looking for - yes, I have a personal relationship with Jesus. Then I might invite him in for coffee if I had the time. Every time I talk to a Protestant, or another Catholic or a Muslim or a Jew, I always seem to learn something (I have never met a Pagan). Maybe we all have something to offer each other. I think it’s all about getting closer to God, not winning a debate.
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just_came_back
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This whole “personal” relationship mantra is unreal. First of all, Jesus is not walking the Earth in a personal form where we can see him, talk to him and feel him. I never got that even when I was a protestant.
Again, the Eucharist is about as personal as it can get. I would’ve told him not to waste his oxygen praying for me but that I would be praying for him but that’s just me. I tried to explain Mary once to a JW and was making more progress than one could ever get with a Baptist going door to door and I mean NO OFFENSE to any Baptist posters.
Again, the Eucharist is about as personal as it can get. I would’ve told him not to waste his oxygen praying for me but that I would be praying for him but that’s just me. I tried to explain Mary once to a JW and was making more progress than one could ever get with a Baptist going door to door and I mean NO OFFENSE to any Baptist posters.
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SecretaryMonday
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Are all of the sixes in that reference coincidence or…?
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TimothyH
Guest
What strikes me as sad about the encounter between you and the pastor is the inability of the pastor to witness to the beauty of his own faith without tearning down someone elses faith.So I was sitting in my recliner and watching a spring baseball game when there was a knock. I am usually very charitable toward other faiths when they knock on my door. I always answer with a smile. I get the questions like…“Are you saved…Yes…Do you go to church…Yes” A knew question was asked and when I answered “Yes” I got an odd look and then an odd reply. Here goes…
Protestant Pastor- Good afternoon. I am sharing the Lord with people today and I am wondering if you know the Lord Jesus Christ?
Me- Yes, very much so! I see him every Sunday at Mass and through His Body and Blood, my soul is nourished. (I wanted to give a simple answer to keep the confusion down)
PP-You see him?
Me- Yes in the Holy Eucharist sir
PP- I will pray that you come to know the Lord in a personal way rather than a pagan idol way (walks away)
Is that how Evangelical Fundamentalist really think? I believe he was Baptist in the General Baptist Conference. Do they believe we cannot, as Catholics, form a personal relationship with Christ?
It is one thing to preach truth but it is quite another to call someone pagan to their face. Sadly, many Catholics as well seem unable to share their faith without tearing down someone eleses, without setting up an antagonistic or competitive relationship.
I would love once to have a conversation with someone who doesn’t say, “Here is where you are wrong…” or something similar. As a rule, I never tell anyone their faith is wrong but only share the beauty of my own faith, and I will not allow anyone to say, “You are wrong” but will politely state that mature Christians don’t insult each other.
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Gary_Sheldrake
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If the only reality is physical, then wouldn’t we all have dichotomies to deal with if we believe in any sort of spiritual reality?
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aidanbradypop
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Tim…thanks for posting. I enjoy a good debate now and then but I enjoy sharing my faith a lot more. I wouod rather preach the Gospel with my heart most times.
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BobCatholic
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I would have said “Hold on! I don’t do no pagan stuff. I do what the Bible says. Tell me, pastor, what is the most important thing for a Christian?”
See what his answer is.
“I would say the most important thing for a Christian is to abide in Christ, right?”
I seriously doubt he would disagree with that.
Then I’d ask “What does the Bible say about how I can abide in Christ?”
Wait for his answer. He may not know. Or he may actually possibly say the correct answer:
[BIBLEDRB]John 6:57[/BIBLEDRB]
Of course, he will try the old “symbolic argument” then I will ask him “Where does the Bible say this is symbolic? I’m not talking about your interpretation, which is your tradition, I’m asking for scripture.”
He cannot find one verse that says this. He will try to make an argument, but it will always be an interpretation (his tradition) not scripture.
I’m then asking “How did John the Apostle interpret that verse?” He won’t have an answer.
I would say “If this were a court of law, and I were to bring eyewitness testimony, you know that they would have to be credible and their testimony is to be credible.”
Suppose someone was a martry for Christ. Would that make their testimony credible?
I’d say a big juicy YES. I’m partly sure he would agree.
Then I bring one eyewitnes to the witness stand. Ignatius of Antioch.
He died for Christ. He learned everything about Christ from the Apostle John. He is indeed a credible witness.
Then I bring up quotes where He says that communion is the real body and blood of Christ. No symoblic interpretation here!
Ignatius of Antioch
newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
I would continue from here with Polycarp, but I draw a blank on his quotes.
But the argument is clear. The Apostle John did not think Communion was just a symbol. And the other Apostles had the same doctrine.
See what his answer is.
“I would say the most important thing for a Christian is to abide in Christ, right?”
I seriously doubt he would disagree with that.
Then I’d ask “What does the Bible say about how I can abide in Christ?”
Wait for his answer. He may not know. Or he may actually possibly say the correct answer:
[BIBLEDRB]John 6:57[/BIBLEDRB]
Of course, he will try the old “symbolic argument” then I will ask him “Where does the Bible say this is symbolic? I’m not talking about your interpretation, which is your tradition, I’m asking for scripture.”
He cannot find one verse that says this. He will try to make an argument, but it will always be an interpretation (his tradition) not scripture.
I’m then asking “How did John the Apostle interpret that verse?” He won’t have an answer.
I would say “If this were a court of law, and I were to bring eyewitness testimony, you know that they would have to be credible and their testimony is to be credible.”
Suppose someone was a martry for Christ. Would that make their testimony credible?
I’d say a big juicy YES. I’m partly sure he would agree.
Then I bring one eyewitnes to the witness stand. Ignatius of Antioch.
He died for Christ. He learned everything about Christ from the Apostle John. He is indeed a credible witness.
Then I bring up quotes where He says that communion is the real body and blood of Christ. No symoblic interpretation here!
Ignatius of Antioch
newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
I could continue, there are multiple letters he wrote on his way to being martyred in Rome.
I would continue from here with Polycarp, but I draw a blank on his quotes.
But the argument is clear. The Apostle John did not think Communion was just a symbol. And the other Apostles had the same doctrine.
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Doxiemom
Guest
Look at it from his point of view. You tell him that you eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ each Sunday and you wonder why he thinks “pagan”???
I do not know the man but I am going to assume that he was sincere in finding lost souls and trying to bring them the Jesus and spread the Gosple as was commaned. He was a man of the cloth as they used to say.
Really, all you had to do is say you love the Lord and worship Him every Sunday in your Church during Mass. Now there could have then been a (as brief as you wanted) discussion as to whether you may be more well served by coming to experience his church. Hey, you could have invited him to come and experience Mass.
I do not know the man but I am going to assume that he was sincere in finding lost souls and trying to bring them the Jesus and spread the Gosple as was commaned. He was a man of the cloth as they used to say.
Really, all you had to do is say you love the Lord and worship Him every Sunday in your Church during Mass. Now there could have then been a (as brief as you wanted) discussion as to whether you may be more well served by coming to experience his church. Hey, you could have invited him to come and experience Mass.
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Isaiah45_9
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Jesus said it himself throughout the Bible… Why would that be strange to say?
So that he can see us eating His flesh and drinking His blood?
Come on, we have to draw a line and it is not here. We have been following the Lord’s Words for almost 2,000 years.
And aidanbradypop didn’t say he ate anything, he actually said:
Why should we abstain from proclaiming Christ’s own Words?
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jrtrent
Guest
Well, not speaking for General Baptists, since I’ve never been one, but it is not uncommon for Protestants generally to think that the Roman Catholic Church has some idolatrous practices. From an Anglican perspective, particularly the evangelical end of the spectrum, J. C. Ryle offered five areas he would have called idolatry, and it’s possible that the pastor you encountered was thinking of more than just the Eucharist when he said what he did.
Not that any Protestant church I’ve attended spent a lot of time bashing Catholic doctrine, but when the topic came up, I would say that ideas such as those quoted above are typical of the Presbyterian, Reformed, Anglican, and Baptist preachers and authors I’ve been exposed to. Also, none of those I’ve read or heard teaching about idolatry in that way would have said that Catholics can’t or don’t have a personal relationship with Christ, or that they can’t be or aren’t saved, only that erroneous doctrine can be dangerous and, when recognized as such, is something we should want to put away from us.
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andrewstx
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Are you sure you are an Anglican? Never have I heard such from any Anglican priest. I was raised in St Nicholas Episcopal and they have icons, and statues, and the stations of the cross, as do most churches in this diocese.
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TarkanAttila
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This view seems to echo the old heresies that said that the material world was evil, and Jesus came to free us from it and be spirits like He and the Father were. Like the Cathars and the Gnostics and the Manichees.
I don’t get how someone can’t get that you worship God through the world HE CREATED. The entire Creation IS GOOD.
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SecretaryMonday
Guest
Maybe it seems obvious, even to many non-Catholics, but for a lot of people, its too heathen. I was raised in various Protestant denominations (Nazarene, Baptist, some Reformed…) and I was taught so many scripture verses condemning the foolish idolatry of pagans and even of the chosen people - idolators don’t just honor, reverence, or worship God THROUGH the created world, they actually worship created things as gods. They worship stars, animals, trees. At one point we (more mom, partly me) were afraid to put up a Christmas tree because the bible mentioned that idolators go out in the woods, fetch a tree, put gold and silver on it, and then pronounce it a god…I know it sounds silly, but these are real fears for some people. (We never got rid of Christmas. There were three generations of Christmas tree farmers on my dad’s side; you just don’t get rid of the Christmas tree in that situation.
)We totally believed that Catholic worship had great beauty and reverence (which was good), and they often did great things (Mother Teresa etc.), but they worshipped Mary and other created things in a way that interfered with the adoration due only to God.
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aidanbradypop
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How on earth does that come across as pagan? I am simply doing as Christ told me! If believing in the Body and Blood of Christ is pagan…SIGN ME UP!
I respect their love for Christ and giving up their day to preach the Gospel. That is why I show respect and answer the door instead of hiding behind the blinds.
He never gave me a chance! lol He asked a question. I gave an answer.
Jose we should never stop proclaiming our faith and what Christ commanded us to do as His followers!
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aidanbradypop
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Jr…are you sure you are Anglican? lol Half of my family is of the Anglican faith. Their churches have statues, icons, named after saints, prayer cards…etc.
You are going to go on a vacation with me to the southeast. We will walk into a Southern Baptist congergation and I will tell them I am Roman Catholic. You can then tell them you are Anglican and lets see how much time goes by for them to burn you after they burn me.
Very well stated. I was raised Baptist/Anglican.
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adf417
Guest
A response I like to give in addition to the typical real presence scriptures is:
“and after three days they found him in the temple…and Jesus said, did you not know I would be in my fathers house”.
“and after three days they found him in the temple…and Jesus said, did you not know I would be in my fathers house”.
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aidanbradypop
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:yup:
I said that once to my mother when she caught me sneaking to Mass. Still was grounded. Thanks for nothing adf lol
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jrtrent
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To Aidanbradypop and Andrewstx:
Yes, I’m sure I’m Anglican, at least that’s what is says on my certificate of confirmation, and the quote I offered was from J. C. Ryle, a now-dead bishop in the Anglican church.
My understanding of Anglicanism is rooted in the 39 Articles and the books of Homilies. Bishop Ryle referenced the homily on the Peril of Idolatry in the article I linked to, but, even though Article XXXV says the homilies are “to be read in Churches by the Ministers, diligently and distinctly, that they may he understanded of the people,” I begin to think there are some who consider themselves Anglican who have never been exposed to them, haven’t taken the time to read them, or simply don’t believe them. Another quote from Ryle from that same article:
Of course, as GKC is fond of pointing out, there is wide variety of belief amongst Anglicans, and part of the reason Bishop Ryle wrote many of the things he did was because he saw such things happening in some quarters of the Anglican church in his day.
Which reminds me–the library called and said two of the titles GKC had recommended are ready for me to pick up. I have a feeling I may be in for a bit of shock and surprise as I read them.
Yes, I’m sure I’m Anglican, at least that’s what is says on my certificate of confirmation, and the quote I offered was from J. C. Ryle, a now-dead bishop in the Anglican church.
My understanding of Anglicanism is rooted in the 39 Articles and the books of Homilies. Bishop Ryle referenced the homily on the Peril of Idolatry in the article I linked to, but, even though Article XXXV says the homilies are “to be read in Churches by the Ministers, diligently and distinctly, that they may he understanded of the people,” I begin to think there are some who consider themselves Anglican who have never been exposed to them, haven’t taken the time to read them, or simply don’t believe them. Another quote from Ryle from that same article:
The Homilies came out in the 16th century, so the “800 years and more” puts the drowning in idolatry days back to the 8th century, and, as Ryle points out, “There can be little doubt the evil began even before the time just mentioned by the homily writers.”
Of course, as GKC is fond of pointing out, there is wide variety of belief amongst Anglicans, and part of the reason Bishop Ryle wrote many of the things he did was because he saw such things happening in some quarters of the Anglican church in his day.
Which reminds me–the library called and said two of the titles GKC had recommended are ready for me to pick up. I have a feeling I may be in for a bit of shock and surprise as I read them.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Where ya been brother? I thought ya left us. Maybe you have more of a life than I! lol
I see many different forms of Anglicanism with my family. Some are Episcopalian, Anglo Catholic, Reformed Anglican, and Anglican in the US or Continuing Anglican.
They all have a slightly different take on Anglicanism. Kind of fun to see the different views.
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