"Come as you are" Worship?

[Mrs_Sally]

I think that more parishes should offer regular Bible study (or a study of Church Fathers, Saints’ writings, etc.). Some parishes don’t have any at all, some only offer it during “mom’s meetings” that not even all moms can attend.

I have never been to a service like the OP described (my protestant family members are mostly Lutheran or Methodist), but I can see the appeal as an extra thing during the week. If that were the only worship/service offered, it would feel like “milk, rather than meat” to me.

 

[anp1215]

I went to a reformed Baptist church that operated that way–not the snacks in the sanctuary thing, but taking notes and going verse-by-verse through a book of the Bible (or an extended study of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, or perhaps a "lessons from the life of _______). Like SteveVH mentioned, it could take several years to get through a book.

But there is also much to be said for a liturgical service. I happen to prefer the traditional, one-year lectionary, and it’s nice to go through the church year with its changing themes and emphases. The sermon may not be as long, but the collects, introits, graduals, hymns, and scripture readings all go together with it to immerse you in the lesson. There are also numerous sources for sermons and lessons from all the weekly readings to get added insight throughout the week. If you haven’t checked out Lectionary Central yet, they have a great deal to offer.

As SteveVH said, there can always be a separate class to delve more deeply into a verse-by-verse study. As to the going without coffee, water, etc., I’m not sure how it works in most congregations, but I had thought that the usual expectation was that the elements taken during communion were to be the first things eaten or drank that day (exceptions being made for individual medical conditions, of course). That’s part of what makes the coffee and snacks after the service so welcome–people are really ready for something to eat and drink!

Most evangelical churches like we are discussing only have communion a few times a year if that.

 

[Seeker1961]

I went to a reformed Baptist church that operated that way–not the snacks in the sanctuary thing, but taking notes and going verse-by-verse through a book of the Bible (or an extended study of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, or perhaps a "lessons from the life of _______). Like SteveVH mentioned, it could take several years to get through a book.

But there is also much to be said for a liturgical service. I happen to prefer the traditional, one-year lectionary, and it’s nice to go through the church year with its changing themes and emphases. The sermon may not be as long, but the collects, introits, graduals, hymns, and scripture readings all go together with it to immerse you in the lesson. There are also numerous sources for sermons and lessons from all the weekly readings to get added insight throughout the week. If you haven’t checked out Lectionary Central yet, they have a great deal to offer.

As SteveVH said, there can always be a separate class to delve more deeply into a verse-by-verse study. As to the going without coffee, water, etc., I’m not sure how it works in most congregations, but I had thought that the usual expectation was that the elements taken during communion were to be the first things eaten or drank that day (exceptions being made for individual medical conditions, of course). That’s part of what makes the coffee and snacks after the service so welcome–people are really ready for something to eat and drink!

I guess I don’t understand why depth has to be found only in a separate class. Most Catholics don’t get that deeply involved and go to other classes. Why not do a verse by verse study in the homily and expose ore people to it? Why not do an in depth study of the Catechism by linking it to the appropriate readings for the week?

We hear over and over about how poorly catechized Catholics are, but we don’t push for more scholarly exposure during our homilies.

 

[fred_conty]

This is a spinoff of another thread-we were discussing the current practices of some non-denominational churches. There are a few in my area that have coffee shops, people bring food and drinks into the sanctuary. The service itself is similar to a concert musically, with a lecture in the middle. People take notes like in a classroom. Everything about it is low key, but in my experience it did lead to some genuine conversions and changed lives.

I’m not running this practice down at all, please understand that. I attended such a church for about two years. It was a big part of what eventually led me back to the Catholic Church. At the time my friend invited me, I was away from church and God in just about every way. That casual, relaxed atmosphere was just what I needed at that time.

I guess the question is…even though the practices at these churches are often shocking to life long Catholics and other high church folk…is it really so wrong?

God can use any means he wants. But it remains the means and not the end. For some, he might use the Grand Canyon, or nice neighbor, or a bad boss, a car accident, or …
That is the way to look at it.

Sometimes going to those places does not result in what you experienced, maybe just the opposite.

But I am happy for you.

Just a thought.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

This is a spinoff of another thread-we were discussing the current practices of some non-denominational churches. There are a few in my area that have coffee shops, people bring food and drinks into the sanctuary. The service itself is similar to a concert musically, with a lecture in the middle. People take notes like in a classroom. Everything about it is low key, but in my experience it did lead to some genuine conversions and changed lives.

I’m not running this practice down at all, please understand that. I attended such a church for about two years. It was a big part of what eventually led me back to the Catholic Church. At the time my friend invited me, I was away from church and God in just about every way. That casual, relaxed atmosphere was just what I needed at that time.

I guess the question is…even though the practices at these churches are often shocking to life long Catholics and other high church folk…is it really so wrong?

It’s a perfectly good thing, it’s just not a Mass. Good, but not sufficient.

I tend to prefer the more formal Masses with traditional music (the song “Go Make a Difference,” for example, makes me want to bang my head against a wall repeatedly), and I think that because of what Mass is, the more formal style seems more appropriate to me. But that certainly does not mean that meeting to praise God (by whatever type of songs the people there prefer to use) and to listen to someone discuss some part of the faith is bad.

The atmosphere you describe may not be how Mass should be viewed, but there’s absolutely no rule that says we must only worship in the context of the Mass.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

While there were some communal meal practices associated with the Eucharist(?) in early Christianity, the essential thing to remember is that the first Christians were Jews who knew what synagogue and temple worship is about. There was always a holy place. After all, our Lord drove money changers from the temple in order to preserve its sanctity.

Not saying that informal, very informal, worship is verbotten, of course, but it is not in keeping with the synagogue-temple tradition that has been retained by nearly every denomination in Christianity.

I would have no qualms about bringing a coffee into a classroom or an office. I do have qualms about bringing it into church, even carrying it through the church.

I sorta see them as some early apocryphal Christianity worshipers in a sense of being very local and doing their own thing. I suppose if I was living during the time as early Hellenist Christians it would be the norm?

I can’t say if they are right or wrong in what they do but they do not fit in my comfort level.

 

[SteveVH]

I guess I don’t understand why depth has to be found only in a separate class. Most Catholics don’t get that deeply involved and go to other classes. Why not do a verse by verse study in the homily and expose ore people to it? Why not do an in depth study of the Catechism by linking it to the appropriate readings for the week?

We hear over and over about how poorly catechized Catholics are, but we don’t push for more scholarly exposure during our homilies.

Unfortunately we are subject to the knowledge and teaching skills of our particular parish priests. Don’t get me wrong. The great majority do a wonderful job, especially our young priests who have been in seminary in the past 15-20 years.

The homily is not the place for an indepth Bible study. Depending upon the liturgical season, or circumstances within a particular parish, the priest or deacon may want to focus on a particular message from the readings while remaining silent on others. He may have pastoral concerns that need attention.

The fact that, as you say, most Catholics don’t get deeply involved and go to other classes is an entirely different issue, and a sad one at that. Nevertheless I know few parishes where the resources are not available and the fact that some are just to lazy or complacent to take advantage of them is not the fault of the Church. Where I will fault the Church is that these resources were not always provided in the past. I think we’ve learned a lot and are headed in the right direction concerning catechesis. Our children will be much more educated in their faith than most of us or our parents were.

 

[robwar]

I guess I don’t understand why depth has to be found only in a separate class. Most Catholics don’t get that deeply involved and go to other classes. Why not do a verse by verse study in the homily and expose ore people to it? Why not do an in depth study of the Catechism by linking it to the appropriate readings for the week?

We hear over and over about how poorly catechized Catholics are, but we don’t push for more scholarly exposure during our homilies.

That is an interesting point. Priests have been trained to give “inspirational” homilies instead of “instructional” homilies. Maybe there will be a swing back to the more instructional homilies. You should realize that about 40% of the Mass is taken directly from Scripture, whether it is the 3 direct readings, the Psalm response in-between the OT and NT readings as well as many of the prayers and responses etc. Having seen both the liturgical style of worship to the free for all Charismatic style, there is something about the liturgical that is more reverent and focusses one on Christ. Bringing in food such as coffees is really new to me. I have never seen this when I was a Protestant. This is different than having a water with you because of medical needs. The parish I attend, there is a bottle of water for the priest and his needs next to his chair. Coffee in Church no matter which one just seems way too much. It is one things when you are in a Bible study but to bring coffee into church so you can sip on it seem more like entertainment not worship or reverence.

 

[KP3243]

I don’t think it is necessarily wrong for them but it is not ok for a Catholic for a few reasons. One the outline of a Catholic mass is all in the book of Revelation. I will just list a few but Mass is covered several times in Revelation. Revelation 1:3 “Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.” The Catholic Church has always understood this to be the lector reading to the Eucharistic assembly. One person reads to the many however the most important part is those who hear it and take to heart what is written. This why when the readings are finished there is a pause we are supposed to be contemplating the Word of God.
Secondly, Catholics offer a sacrifice, which Protestants do not. Catholics are also basically on trial for the sins they have committed that receiving the Eucharist takes away that is why we have to take an active participation in the mass so we worthily receive the Eucharist and why Catholics are not in mass more than 90 seconds before we all tell everyone we are sinners. Then the best part of mass comes, Your hair should stand on its ends during the sacrificial offering when you realize who is signing the Holy Holy Holy part of mass right along with you - heaven and earth are united in this moment and that you are receiving the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus! Think about it, I still get overwhelmed and my hair stand on it ends. Coffee and doughnuts seem a little out of place when God is providing your soul the finest nourishment man can ever obtain in his earthly life!

 

[Cat]

I am getting reading to duck and cover, but really…people can’t go for one hour without coffee or water?

I think that some people (like me) are so very busy that when we just sit, we fall asleep. So that may be one reason why people sip a beverage while they are just sitting and listening.

 

[KP3243]

I think that some people (like me) are so very busy that when we just sit, we fall asleep. So that may be one reason why people sip a beverage while they are just sitting and listening.

Am I understanding you correctly, you bring a beverage to mass?

 

[Publisher]

I think that some people (like me) are so very busy that when we just sit, we fall asleep. So that may be one reason why people sip a beverage while they are just sitting and listening.

LOL…you would pull your hair out in Quaker worship…all though…we aren’t just “sitting and listening”…We ARE sitting in quiet expectation…but we are Listening to the Risen Christ in our midst…sometimes the 60-90 minutes is spent in Silence…but we are to be engaged in Inward Worship and Praise.

Beverages and snacks are not allowed in the Meeting Room. We are to be engaged in expectant worship…not drinking coffee, tea, soda or eating.

 

[Irishmom2]

Just because I like having it doesn’t mean I can’t survive without it.

And I never implied you couldn’t survive. In fact, I think that was my point.

Did anyone say something about “not being able to go one hour?”

I didn’t say I almost died when I started going to Mass because I didn’t have coffee.

Again, I don’t believe that is what I said.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

I go to 2 different churches. One is a Southern Baptist church, which I started attending shortly after my dearly departed wife passed away because it was the ONLY church with a minstry to singles over 40 in the area. I have developed several strong relations there, and attend it 3 weeks out of the month. It is a lot less formal and does have a cafe in the building where you can buy coffee, etc. It is very “homey” and feels welcoming. They encourage taking notes during the sermon/ homily so you can later review what was taught and apply to your life. I also attend an Anglican church once a month because I love the liturgy and they are a lot more formal. The preaching there is just as good and I have seen people with notebooks taking notes there too. But the Eucharist is the central act of worship and it is taken seriously. I attended a Catholic friary a long time ago and the homily given by the Franciscan monk that led the worship was excellent. I have also heard Catholic homilies on TV that I found very good. I love that the Pope is encouraging the priests to learn to give better homilies. I believe the worship should be Word AND Sacrament. Both are important. But not every pastor or priest is as gifted in preaching and for some it can be a learning curve. But the sermon/homily should help us to worship God and draw us to a worshipful attitude for the Eucharist. I don’t know what I think of having a cafe in the Baptist church. At times I feel a little unsure of it. But I have bought a cup of coffeee before “Sunday School” but would never take a cup into the sanctuary.

 

[JustaServant]

LOL…you would pull your hair out in Quaker worship…

I have this picture in my mind of Mr. Bean at such a service…

 

[WoundedIcon]

What they do at non-denominational churches is good, but it isn’t worship. Praise, teaching, and exhortation, sure. But God gave us the way He wants us to worship Him, and it’s by ritual sacrifice. I think that’s what this all boils down to. However, I do wish we’d do something like they do, at least when it comes to having more relaxed study-oriented meetings. Or at least the homilies during Mass could be done by taking the propers and readings and exegetically teaching us according to the theme they follow.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I personally don’t think my clothing will make me worship more. Neither will having coffee will make me pay more attention. I don’t like eating during service, unless it’s food for the soul

Having said that, I also understand that we all have different preferences and as long as the message doesn’t suffer, it should not matter and the Parish should have separate services: One for the dress-ups and one service for the dress-downs.

As for notes, I absolutely love to take notes. More so on my kindle, where I can have all my books and my notepad

I hate wearing suits and ties… lol.

 

[bauerice]

I have an opinion that the early church more resembled an AA meeting. We over the years have developed what is the modern service. I am a smells and bells RC but, I doubt the early church meeting in caves and hiding looks like what we have today.

 

[KP3243]

The only thing about clothing I will say is dressing up for mass gives it more of the respect it deserves. I totally wear jeans to mass don’t get me wrong, I do, but I also like to dress up too. It confuses people when you dress up on a non holiday and there isn’t a baby in a white gown anywhere even in the church! The biggest problem as far as clothing goes is with the kids and it is totally their parents fault because in the summertime we have tween and teenage girls coming to mass in super short shorts like with a 3 inch or less inseam. I am a female in my late 20s and I’m shocked that they wear these shorts to mass. Although I shouldn’t be surprised because I taught religious Ed this year for the first time and my 6th graders had no idea that Jesus was present in the Eucharist!!! I was heartbroken for them.