Come on down to the river!

[Spirithound]

So I suppose this thread could be in any one of a couple threads… insert permission to move here
I’ve been thinking about immersion baptism, and it being done in the river, and I’m wondering, is it even possible to dunk someone into a river safely? Seems that would be a rather awkward position, and with the movement of the river…

 

[jbebeau]

Immersion doesn’t necessarily mean submersion.

 

[1ke]

So I suppose this thread could be in any one of a couple threads… insert permission to move here
I’ve been thinking about immersion baptism, and it being done in the river, and I’m wondering, is it even possible to dunk someone into a river safely? Seems that would be a rather awkward position, and with the movement of the river…

No, it is not safe on several fronts-- drowning potential and pollution.

Every year there are news articles on people who drowned during a full immersion, river baptism. It’s tragic and unnecessary.

Also, given the pollutants going into rivers I would not get in based on that alone!

 

[bpbasilphx]

Every year there are news articles on people who drowned during a full immersion, river baptism. It’s tragic and unnecessary.

I’ve yet to see such a story.

 

[puzzleannie]

So I suppose this thread could be in any one of a couple threads… insert permission to move here
I’ve been thinking about immersion baptism, and it being done in the river, and I’m wondering, is it even possible to dunk someone into a river safely? Seems that would be a rather awkward position, and with the movement of the river…

my mother and uncle were baptized in the Little Miami River at about 10 or 11 yrs of age, their family was strict Methodist sect (which grammaw abandoned when they became liberal in the 70s-80s). I have seen the place years ago, in a public park, in a flat area with a “beach” of sorts, kind of an inlet, where I assume it was safer, and understand it was popular place for baptisms at that time (20s).

from earliest times Church documents specify baptism should be with fresh, flowing water if at all possible, which is why fonts should have a fountain or continuous stream of water, or at the least be freshly blest for baptism. Our new church is designed with a font to allow full immersion of either adults or infants, and the continuing stream of water will go through a channel in the floor out to a fountain in the courtyard, where the faithful may fill containers with holy water. The water will actually be recirclated, with fresh water coming in according to a pre-set timer.

 

[1ke]

Every year there are news articles on people who drowned during a full immersion, river baptism. It’s tragic and unnecessary.

I’ve yet to see such a story.

A simple Google News search gets tons of hits. Most articles are on a pay basis, but you can see the headlines and sometimes part of the article:

For example:

nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AASB&p_theme=aasb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0E9C243B3ADCA7AB&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date&s_trackval=GooglePM

iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=14&click_id=14&art_id=vn20050228063324636C325658

sunstar.com.ph/static/bac/2007/06/04/news/bacole.o.drowns.in.baptism.rites.html

Three people drowned in January:

news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,2-7-1442_2256263,00.html

This one’s from March:

pcfm.co.ls/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=236&Itemid=1

I know of others that I have read about in the paper in the past, but can’t find an online article. A teenager drowned in Houston, TX during a river baptism when I lived there-- in 1999 or 2000.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

A simple Google News search gets tons of hits. Most articles are on a pay basis, but you can see the headlines and sometimes part of the article:

For example:

nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AASB&p_theme=aasb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0E9C243B3ADCA7AB&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date&s_trackval=GooglePM

iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=14&click_id=14&art_id=vn20050228063324636C325658

sunstar.com.ph/static/bac/2007/06/04/news/bacole.o.drowns.in.baptism.rites.html

Three people drowned in January:

news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,2-7-1442_2256263,00.html

This one’s from March:

pcfm.co.ls/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=236&Itemid=1

I know of others that I have read about in the paper in the past, but can’t find an online article. A teenager drowned in Houston, TX during a river baptism when I lived there-- in 1999 or 2000.

At least two of those stories clearly speak of people going swimming into deeper waters after the baptism. So they drowned swimming in deep water, not while being baptized. The other stories are lax on details.

 

[1ke]

At least two of those stories clearly speak of people going swimming into deeper waters after the baptism. So they drowned swimming in deep water, not while being baptized. The other stories are lax on details.

The point being, people do die in river baptisms and it is not safe.

 

[YADA]

I was baptized in a river about forty [yes 40 years ] ago …

Safety concerns would be “river” specific, in reality one would think … I can’t imagine selecting the faster white water …

Also, streams and creeks are free flowing and less dangerous …

I had a priest who enjoyed soaking his feet in the River Jordan on a trip to the holy land … he said it was less than a foot in depth …

A “river” can be large, deep and fast, shallow and fast, shallow and slow shallow and fast … there are lots of possibilities

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The point being, people do die in river baptisms and it is not safe.

If that is the point, those articles do not back it up.

If someone is baptized in a wading pool in church, then goes swimming immediately afterward in the ocean and drowns, did they drown from the baptism?

From the stories it sounds like the drownings had nothing to do with the baptisms.

 

[1ke]

If that is the point, those articles do not back it up.

If someone is baptized in a wading pool in church, then goes swimming immediately afterward in the ocean and drowns, did they drown from the baptism?

From the stories it sounds like the drownings had nothing to do with the baptisms.

I disagree with your assessment. The drownings were directly related to the baptisms. I am not arguing with you about this.

The PP said he had **never **heard of such and I presented several articles that clearly indicate persons beind baptized drowned in the river or ocean while being baptized.

I did not post the article I came across about a baby that ended up in the hospital after a full immersion baptism (not in a river, but in an immersion pool).

Immersion can be dangerous for babies, and immersion in bodies of water such as rivers can be dangerous for older children and adults.

I listed this as one reason that they were not practiced widely, and I stand by that assessment. You are free to disagree.

Since baptism is to be celebrated within the Liturgy, it’s really moot for Catholics anyway.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I disagree with your assessment. The drownings were directly related to the baptisms. I am not arguing with you about this.

At least two of the articles state that the individuals involved went swimming out into deeper waters AFTER having been baptized. How that is “directly” related is beyond me.
The PP said he had **never **heard of such and I presented several articles that clearly indicate persons beind baptized drowned in the river or ocean while being baptized.

I did not post the article I came across about a baby that ended up in the hospital after a full immersion baptism (not in a river, but in an immersion pool).

Immersion can be dangerous for babies, and immersion in bodies of water such as rivers can be dangerous for older children and adults.

I listed this as one reason that they were not practiced widely, and I stand by that assessment. You are free to disagree.

Since baptism is to be celebrated within the Liturgy, it’s really moot for Catholics anyway.

 

[Cat]

If you are desirous of an immersion baptism, why not ask if you can borrow a Baptist baptistry for your baptism? It would be a real witness to the Baptists.

Our priests will baptize by immersion if someone requests it, but I can’t remember where they actually do it.

 

[Spirithound]

Immersion doesn’t necessarily mean submersion.

So what constitutes “immersion”? I’m sure, as a PP quoted their priest on, the Jordan is a foot deep near the shoreline, but it would clearly be impossible to submerge someone there. Is a laxer definition of “immersion” possible there?

 

[SMHW]

So what constitutes “immersion”? I’m sure, as a PP quoted their priest on, the Jordan is a foot deep near the shoreline, but it would clearly be impossible to submerge someone there. Is a laxer definition of “immersion” possible there?

Immersion can be interpretted as standing (kneeling?) in shallow water (river, tub, pool, etc) and having water poured over the head.

 

[Digitonomy]

is it even possible to dunk someone into a river safely? Seems that would be a rather awkward position, and with the movement of the river…

The answer is a definite yes. There are many rivers where one can stand safely, and particularly if there are several people helping to hold the person being baptised it will not be awkward.

1ke:

The point being, people do die in river baptisms and it is not safe.

Your broad conclusion does not automatically follow from your evidence. One may say that there are some rivers that are rarely safe, one may say that most rivers are dangerous on occasion, but one cannot logically say that baptisms which take place in rivers are automatically unsafe.