Commandments should not be followed ...

[moondweller]

My faith is in Jesus Christ, the only Saviour. My faith in Christ was initially formed in an I/F Baptist Church, and now I have found the Fullness of Faith in His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I love Jesus more, and am closer to Him than I have ever been before in my life. The Catholic Faith is all about Jesus Christ and knowing, loving and serving Him.

The reason I was so interested in your answer is 1)because ella asked you so nicely many, many posts ago and you never answered her, and 2)because I’ve encountered those who believe in eternal security, but would conclude (wrongly) that since I’m now Catholic that I was never truly saved to begin with - since they can’t say I’ve lost my salvation without contradicting their theology.

You notice I did not contradict my theology. You do realize that now being Catholic it is presumptuous on your part to believe that you have eternal life, right? It is only something you hope to possess in the future.

One is not saved by loving Jesus “more than ever,” but through faith in Him. The believer is then to grow in the grace and knowledge of Him (2 Pet. 3:18) that his faith in Him may grow and be guarded against error.

 

[moondweller]

I think that Abraham did indeed have faith in the Lord. But he also took his son and placed him on an alter to almost kill him. He did not just “believe” in God, he also did what God told him to do. Thats not “FAITH ALONE”. Thats “FAITH AND WORKS”.

But what does the Scripture say?Gen 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.Reckoned what to him as righteousness? What is “it?” His FAITH to him as righteousness. Does the Scripture repeat this reckoning of righteousness to Abraham based on his willingness to offer up his only son? No. Nor should you.

Does James? No. He too cites only Gen. 15:6.

 

[moondweller]

That’s funny, because the judgement passage in Matthew 25 includes the righteous and the wicked before God’s throne and there isn’t any mention of rewards.

God Bless,
Michael

Well, that should tell you something then. That judgment isn’t for Christ’s true church.

 

[Teflon93]

On the principle that one should never let a Fundamentalist tear verses from context and intersperse their manmade theology (homology?) between, let’s take a look at Galatians 3:

1: O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2: This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3: Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4: Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5: He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6: Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9: So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12: And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15: Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17: And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18: For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19: Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20: Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21: Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
**27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29: And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. **

Let me just point out that I have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and of the Holy Spirit—I have put on Christ, per Paul. Moondweller can reflect on his prior statements regarding my not being his brother and his not contradicting his theology; he cannot believe both and claim to believe St Paul.

Let’s see what the ECFs have to tell us about 3:25:

Marius Victorinus:

“That the faith has come” means that Christ himself has come----for then faith arose. There began to be a time for faith to fully come and for us to believe in him in whom is all salvation, in contrast to the Jews, who did not believe [in him]. Epistle to the Galatians 2.3.25-6.

Chrysostom:

Now if the law was a custodian and we were confined under its direction, it was not opposed to grace but cooperated with it. But if it continues to bind us after grace has come, then it is opposed to grace…Those who maintain their custody at this point are the ones who bring the child into the greatest disrepute. The custodian makes the child ridiculous when he keeps him close at hand even after the time has come for his departure. (Homily on Galatians 3.25-6)

And about 3:10:

Marius Victorinus:

From his saying “works of the law” we are to understand that there are also good works in the Christian life, especially those that the apostle frequently commends, such as that we should be mindful of the poor and other precepts for living that are contained in this very letter. The fulfillment of all these works is the calling of every Christian. The cursed works of the law referred to here are therefore other things: obviously observations (of days), sacrifices of lambs and other such works that they perform concerning circumcision and the choice of foods. But now the paschal feast has been consummated through Christ. (Epistle to the Galatians 3.10)

 

[Philthy]

1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,…"Gal 5:19-21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

True believers are not named among those in 1 Cor. 6:9 but are the “washed,” “sanctified” and “justified” in verse eleven.

​

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I see, MD. According to you, the “righteous” are differentiated by the “unrighteous” by “faith alone”, correct? But here, Paul says that the righteous are distinguished from the unrighteous by their conduct. Did it not ever occur to you that if believers and unbelievers could not be separated by their conduct then their would be no point whatsoever to St Paul’s comments?

Those sins listed in Gal. 5 are “deeds of the flesh” which believers can avoid by walking in/by the Spirit Who now indwells them. Paul separates believers from the unrighteous who “practice” (by nature, pattern of lifestyle) such deeds. They being “in the flesh,” which the true believer is not (Rom. 8:9). For instance:

And what, exactly would be the point of bringing up those sins if the believer were not condemned by them??? Still waiting for an answer. Paul and the other NT authors spent an awful lot of time writing about appropriate behavior for the Christian. Why would they do that if there were no significant, eternal consequence to sin for the believer?

Eph 5:18 “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,”
This is an exhortation to proper behavior for the redeemed in Christ, not a condition (qualification) for salvation.

I’ve already dismantled your interpretations of Ephesians in post 806. You dont have a leg to stand on which is perhaps why you avoided responding to it. Here are some highlights…
MD:

Paul did…say…that the “unrighteous” shall not inherit the kingdom. These he NAMES: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, etc. These are NOUNS! He’s not listing “sins” by which one is excluded, but people identified by them,

Yes, MD he says the “unrighteous” will not inherit the Kingdom and then - you might wanna sit down for this revelation - he provides you with a means of recocgizing the unrighteous: by the nature of the sins they commit. He does not, as you desperately claim, exempt believers from this crowd. NOONE who engages in these acts are to be considered “righteous”. Think about it: if behavior didnt separate the “righteous” from the “unrighteous”, why would Paul claim these behaviors as identifying the “unrighteous”? That makes absolutely no sense. Unless he believed it was of eternal consequence and expected “beleivers” to act accordingly, he wouldn’t bother with the admonitions against sinning. It is very simple and very straight forward.
MD:

They’re unbelievers, the “unrighteous,” not numbered and named among the saints (see 1 Cor. 1:2); those of whom he goes on to say: 1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed (i.e., by blood), but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God”

You know you might almost get away with this ridiculous claim if we didnt have Pauls letter to the Ephesians. It has all the same warnings, but is more explicit in clearly identifying the intended audience. Again, brace yourself. First lets dismantle the claim that Paul is somehow addressing unbelievers. Note the underlined text which only applies to Christians:

Originally Posted by St Paul
I, Paul, the prisoner in the Lord, urge you therefore to lead a life worthy of the vocation to which you were called…do not go on living the empty-headed life that the gentiles live…30do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God who has marked you with his seal, ready for the day when we shall be set free…As God’s dear children,…Among you there must be not even a mention of sexual vice or impurity in any of its forms, or greed: this would scarcely become the holy people of God!

Next lets look at the full context of what Paul is telling “believers” who have been “called” and “sealed” as “Gods dear children, the holy people of God” Dont hold you breath for the “You may now break the 10 commandments with impunity without consequence to your immortal souls.”

As God’s dear children, then, take him as your pattern, 2and follow Christ by loving as he loved you, giving himself up for us as an offering and a sweet-smelling sacrifice to God.

Take Christ as our pattern! And what was that pattern? Love and obedience to the Father. Paul gets much more direct…

Originally Posted by St Paul
There must be no foul or salacious talk or coarse jokes-all this is wrong for you; there should rather be thanksgiving. 5For you can be quite certain that nobody who indulges in sexual immorality or impurity or greed-which is worshipping a false god-can inherit the kingdom of God.

Note MD: All this is wrong for you and me (ie Christians) NOBODY - no jew, no gentile, and no “Christian” who indulges in idolatry can inherit the kingdom of God. Crystal clear. Do you really wanna maintain that the “kingdom of God” is not a reference to eternal life/salvation?
We’re not quite done folks…

Do not let anyone deceive you with empty arguments: it is such behaviour that draws down God’s retribution on those who rebel against him. 7Make sure that you do not throw in your lot with them.

Still talking to believers and telling them to be careful not to “throw in their lot with them”. It’s over MD. The “this only applies to unbelievers” delusion must end.
MD:

Those who still seek the Law, in any way, to be justified actually snub their nose at the NEW covenant and its Mediator. That’s why Paul considered it so offensive.

I agree, but you havent told the “whole” truth. The whole truth is that although you cannot seek to be justified by the Law, those who think that they remain “justified” while simultaneously worshipping the false gods of “sexual immorality” and murder and drunkenness etc are mistaken. Such behavior reveals the “content of their faith” to be something other than God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Such faith is not unlike the faith of the demons and it surrenders the inheritance provided for by Christ’s atonement.

 

[Odell]

.Where is it stated the ministry of the H.S. is to enable the believer to keep the commandments? It is stated, however, that the believer is to now walk in/by the Spirit (who indwells him) and he will not carry out the desire of the flesh:Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”

Did you not just answer your own question?

Presuming these verses you quoted are talking about Christian who will walk by the spirit how do you presume they will do that?

Since your a true Christian Moondweller tell me how is it that you walk by the Spirit is it of your own accord? or is it the Spirit at work in you?

YOU want answer the question if you realize how ridiculous you sound.

Gal 5:19-21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”[/indent]True believers are not named among those in 1 Cor. 6:9 but are the “washed,” “sanctified” and “justified” in verse eleven. Those sins listed in Gal. 5 are “deeds of the flesh” which believers can avoid by walking in/by the Spirit Who now indwells them. Paul separates believers from the unrighteous who “practice” (by nature, pattern of lifestyle) such deeds. They being “in the flesh,” which the true believer is not (Rom. 8:9). For instance:Eph 5:18 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,"This is an exhortation to proper behavior for the redeemed in Christ, not a condition (qualification) for salvation.

The problem with the legalistic mindset is that it interprets every exhortation in Scripture to the redeemed in Christ as a divine condition to be met in order to inherit salvation. Such a mindset cannot ever grasp GRACE. It kicks against the goads. The only way out for the person with such a mindset is to allow GRACE to grasp him (through faith). But few ever do.

The problem is that you dont realize you dont do these things Grace has already GRASPED you. If you do these things I would wonder if you were ever grasped moon.

Well, that should tell you something then. That judgment isn’t for Christ’s true church.

Tell me who are these rightoues people if they are not Christs true Church and how they are allowed eternal life?

While your at answering these question maybe you could catch up on some other questions I posted way back

We both know that the law of Christ is not the same as the OT law so I was just wondering where you stand on LOVE being the law of Christ?

What is the Law of Christ? A simple sentince would work. If you already answered give me something here cause I missed it.

I also asked you how your faith was any different than the demons and I guess its no different.

The demons on all acounts of faith alone should be saved

 

[moondweller]

Let’s see what the ECFs have to tell us about 3:25:

Marius Victorinus:

“That the faith has come” means that Christ himself has come----for then faith arose. There began to be a time for faith to fully come and for us to believe in him in whom is all salvation, in contrast to the Jews, who did not believe in him]. Epistle to the Galatians 2.3.25-6.

Well, it looks like Marius agrees with me. Thank you.

Chrysostom:

Now if the law was a custodian and we were confined under its direction, it was not opposed to grace but cooperated with it. **But if it continues to bind us after grace has come, then it is opposed to grace…**Those who maintain their custody at this point are the ones who bring the child into the greatest disrepute. The custodian makes the child ridiculous when he keeps him close at hand even after the time has come for his departure. (Homily on Galatians 3.25-6)

I agree with Chrysostom. The “custodian” includes the Decalogue.

And about 3:10:

Marius Victorinus:

From his saying “works of the law” we are to understand that there are also good works in the Christian life, especially those that the apostle frequently commends, such as that we should be mindful of the poor and other precepts for living that are contained in this very letter. The fulfillment of all these works is the calling of every Christian. The cursed works of the law referred to here are therefore other things: obviously observations (of days), sacrifices of lambs and other such works that they perform concerning circumcision and the choice of foods. But now the paschal feast has been consummated through Christ. (Epistle to the Galatians 3.10)

The cursed works Paul also points out is trying to keep the Decalogue, which he calls a ministry of condemnation and death (2 Cor. 3:6-11).

ALL who have violated (transgressed) the Saturday sabbath rest (no labor) are under its curse. And the punishment for not keeping it holy (set apart as a day of rest - not worship) were, according to the Law, to be stoned. But Tef., refuses to report to his priest and congregation for stoning. And then in turn, they must stone each other.Gal 3:11 "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Gal 3:12 "However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

 

[Teflon93]

Well, it looks like Marius agrees with me.

Marius being dead for centuries, it is you who agree with him.

Thank you.

You’re welcome, but I post all the evidence I can get my hands on from the ECFs; I am interested in the truth. When your opinions conform with what Scripture and the ECFs say, then that happens to be the truth. I do not refrain from posting evidence simply because you will seize upon it.

I agree with Chrysostom.** The “custodian” includes the Decalogue**.The cursed works Paul also points out is trying to keep the Decalogue, which he calls a ministry of condemnation and death (2 Cor. 3:6-11).

Chrysostom does not explicitly say so; you are free to draw whatever inference you wish but might want to beware lest Chrysostom explicitly contradict your interpretation elsewhere, in which case you will admire his position less.

ALL who have violated (transgressed) the Saturday sabbath rest (no labor) are under its curse.

So you have said, but the Sabbath day for Christians happens to be Sunday. Perhaps you are a Seventh Day Adventist and disagree.

And the punishment for not keeping it holy (set apart as a day of rest - not worship) were, according to the Law, to be stoned.

Yes.

But Tef., refuses to report to his priest and congregation for stoning. And then in turn, they must stone each other.Gal 3:11 "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

I have never been stoned, having not engaged in the rowdy after dark behavior you found so disturbing in the military.

Your logic breaks down over the rather obvious fact that Sunday is our sabbath day. Moreover, the Catholic Church does not follow the laws which St Paul inveighs against, but the laws St Paul upholds—the moral law of the Ten Commandments. You have been taken to the hoop on this point numerous times now.

Gal 3:12 "However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

It gets mighty tiresome to keep pointing you to Galatians 5, which after all is in the same epistle.

Put down your Bible Bingo card for a moment and read the whole thing:

1: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that** if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. **
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5: For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7: Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8: This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10: I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11: And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12: I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they **which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. **
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26: Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Far from eschewing the Commandments, St Paul upholds them, as does Christ.

Your Manichean legalism notwithstanding.

 

[moondweller]

I see, MD. According to you, the “righteous” are differentiated by the “unrighteous” by “faith alone”, correct?

CORRECT!

But here, Paul says that the righteous are distinguished from the unrighteous by their conduct. Did it not ever occur to you that if believers and unbelievers could not be separated by their conduct then their would be no point whatsoever to St Paul’s comments?

No Phil. By definition believers are separated from unbelievers by FAITH. An unbeliever is just that - an UN-believer.

It is the true believer’s FAITH in Christ that effects his behavior. ESPECIALLY as he grows in the GRACE and knowledge of Him, distinguishing himself ever more from the unbeliever who is bound up and entangled in the many vices of the flesh. Although, there are many unbelievers who are not adulterers, fornicators, liars, slanders, etc., but live very respectable lives. And the only way they can be distinguished is by their unbelief. So, bottom line, what distinguishes (separates) an unbeliever from a believer is unbelief.

As the believer grows in God’s GRACE (the knowledge of it) he understands more and more God’s infinite love toward him through the Person and work of Jesus Christ. It’s this understanding (grasping) of just how much he is loved by God through Christ that keeps him from straying far from home. Something “commandments” simply cannot do. "Not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son…"

I’ve counseled many kids in trouble who expressed love for their parents but what was greatly lacking in every one of them was an intimate, profound reality of their parent’s love for them.

Point being, it’s grasping the reality of God’s extraordinary love toward us who have believed, being now “in Christ,” that keeps us ever close to home. Who wants to stray from it? Not me (Eph. 1:18-20).

 

[guanophore]

As to the “center, source and summit” of one’s faith, you can only speak for yourself, not all Catholics. One can worship Christ and yet not believe in Him (I’m not talking about His existence).

Catholics have as the center, source, and summit of their faith Christ. If a person does not, they are not Catholic. Calling oneself Catholic does not make it, in fact, a reality.

No, a person cannot worship Christ in Spirit and in Trugh without faith in Him. Anything else the demons do also, and shudder.

 

[peary]

**from the CCC:

2052 “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” To the young man who asked this question, Jesus answers first by invoking the necessity to recognize God as the “One there is who is good,” as the supreme Good and the source of all good. Then Jesus tells him: “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” And he cites for his questioner the precepts that concern love of neighbor: “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.” Finally Jesus sums up these commandments positively: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Mt 19:16-19.

Right here, Jesus is referring to the 10 Commandments, and He further states that, in order to have eternal life, “keep the commandments.”

The Law has not been abolished, but rather wew are invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment.

To even suggest that we are not to follow the Commandments is a grave error and is unbiblical.**

 

[mikeledes]

Well, that should tell you something then. That judgment isn’t for Christ’s true church.

If the righteous and the wicked are present before His throne, then the Last Judgement also involves Christ’s true Church.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Is MD a Protestant … what Church ?? I’m not sure he has told us. At anyrate, anyone born again spiritually … would love all, w/o showing favoritism.

Moondweller and sandusky appear to come from a dispensationalist perspective that teaches that they are obligated to love and accept as brethren only those who agree with their soteriology.

 

[guanophore]

On the otherhand, some Catholics will doubt your salvation was genuine before you entered the RCC.

I don’t agree with this. Unlike the children of the Reformers, Catholics do not pre-occupy themselves with who is “saved” and who is not. We receive the apostolic teaching that it is the task of God, working through His holy angels, to sort out the weeds from the wheat, and this is done at harvest. We are to allow all to grow together.

 

[Teflon93]

**

To even suggest that we are not to follow the Commandments is a grave error and is unbiblical.**

As we have seen in the thread above, the obstacle for those who reject the Commandments along with the Levitical laws which Christ fulfilled and which no longer bind the faithful is not so much the Ten Commandments, but the two Christ gave to summarize and extend them—love God, love thy neighbor.

Moondweller has expended gigabytes trying to establish that those of us whom continue to follow the Ten Commandments must also follow the Levitical laws, repeatedly claiming that we are somehow bound to keep Saturday as the sabbath because we believe murder, theft, covetousness, and the rest to be deadly sins. He apparently does not recognize that such silly arguments apply as well to the first Commandment—since we accept one God and place no other gods before him, were Moondweller’s argument valid, we would be bound to keep kosher, make sacrifices, all the rest. It betrays an inability to understand the core message of the Gospel—that Christ has died for ALL of our sins, and that we are to love ALL of our brothers and sisters as Christ has loved us.

Fundamentalism was born out of the drive not to love, but to curse and to purge. It’s focus was quite simply to eliminate theological liberals from mainline Protestantism. The soteriology developed by the Fundamentalists was designed with this in mind, and emphasizes excluding various groups of people from the Elect—Jews, Catholics, liberal Protestants in particular (you won’t find many screeds against the Orthodox, chiefly because the founders of Fundamentalism didn’t know a bloody thing about them).

Evangelicalism grew from the Fundamentalist movement when Billy Graham turned his back on the separatists, but it retains much of Fundamentalism’s salvation theology while softening its uncharitable edges. There is a tension at the heart of evangelicalism which ultimately can be resolved only by adopting the Catholic view of salvation; otherwise they bounce between the poles of loving the sinner and hating the sin.

 

[JustaServant]

CORRECT! No Phil. By definition believers are separated from unbelievers by FAITH. An unbeliever is just that - an UN-believer.

It is the true believer’s FAITH in Christ that effects his behavior. ESPECIALLY as he grows in the GRACE and knowledge of Him, distinguishing himself ever more from the unbeliever who is bound up and entangled in the many vices of the flesh. Although, there are many unbelievers who are not adulterers, fornicators, liars, slanders, etc., but live very respectable lives. And the only way they can be distinguished is by their unbelief. So, bottom line, what distinguishes (separates) an unbeliever from a believer is unbelief.

As the believer grows in God’s GRACE (the knowledge of it) he understands more and more God’s infinite love toward him through the Person and work of Jesus Christ. It’s this understanding (grasping) of just how much he is loved by God through Christ that keeps him from straying far from home. Something “commandments” simply cannot do. "Not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son…"

I’ve counseled many kids in trouble who expressed love for their parents but what was greatly lacking in every one of them was an intimate, profound reality of their parent’s love for them.

Point being, it’s grasping the reality of God’s extraordinary love toward us who have believed, being now “in Christ,” that keeps us ever close to home. Who wants to stray from it? Not me (Eph. 1:18-20).

870 replies? Something tells me this thread is going in circles. Oh well.
Lets try it again:
MD: are you a follower of Peter Ruckman?

 

[guanophore]

And I agree! That is why I, as the Lutheran Churches also unanimously do (I am not counting those that are only nominally Lutheran, but de facto serves as propagandists for moral relativism and foul living), say that we are saved by Faith alone - the TRUE faith, which shows itself in works.

But the order of things is paramount here: Are we saved through faith AND works, or are we saved by the true faith, which also presents itself in works, ALONE?

I agree. I prefer “faith, working through love”. It is the quality of the faith - it is faith that works.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

 

[guanophore]

A Christian has their salvation / spiritual rebirth [per words of Christ] when they first become a disciple. Christ fulfills the law for us, Christ merits our justification ( by grace ) before God the Father. And, the spirit proceeds from the Father & Son to the new disciple. ‘Apart from our works …lest any man boast.’

To say its presumptuous [in the extreme] to presume salvation before our deaths is misleading.

The Gospels teach the Good Shepherd actively/agressively maintains his flock. Many of us have Prodigal son events in our lives. What Christ has claimed for God … is not easily lost. Did not 11 of the original 12 make it to heaven ?

Scripture does teach us to be diligent and faithful til the end. Judas did not do so. Anyone can go back on their oath of discipleship to the Lord … free will is always a human option. If we are not true disciples …our branch in tree of life can be removed. But, it does appear that the majority of those who agree to discipleship are successfully shepherded in this life.

The judgement Christians undergo … is one where Christ acknowledges we were true disciples, and where rewards for our fruitful works are revealed to us.

Our fruitful works will merit us favor/heavenly rewards … but, they cannot replace the salvation grace of Christ on Cross. The minute we claim Christ and pledge discipleship … we pass from death to new life. It can only be lost if we deliberately chose apostasy and recant our oath of allegiance to our Lord.

To claim Christ lets his sheep go thru life w/o assurance of their salvations is heretical in the extreme. Did Christ not tell Peter, the thief on cross, and many others they were safely in his fold. How could Peter of been effective w/o such assurance ? How can you / I be effective disciples w/o this assurance of salvation ? Paul teaches this assurance of salvation is not just possible, but the norm.

To teach we can not have salvation assurance is cruel and not c/w Christ’s teaching. To say only ‘certain’ saints are assured of their salvation is not c/w Christ telling the thief he was headed to Paradise.

Catholics are not lacking blessed assurance. However, we receive a more mature attitude from the Apostles:

" Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Phil 3:12-16

We can have confidence in our past sealing by the HS, and our present working out of our salvation in fear and trembling. however, as long s we are on this earth, the possiblity exists that we can fall from grace. For that reason, we do not presume that we will be glorified, but we hold true to what we have attained, adn strain forward to what lies ahead.

 

[mikeledes]

It does not enable anyone to “fulfill” the law of Christ. Where is it stated that men are required to “fulfill” the law of Christ for salvation, anyway? If that was true then all men are still under the principle of law (for salvation) and Paul deceives us when he states that we (believers) are not under the principle of law but under the principle of GRACE (unmerited favor).1 Cor 9:21 "…to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.In context, Paul is merely saying that in taking the gospel to the world (both Jews and Gentiles) he, as an evangelist, out of selfless love for others, refrains from anything that would needlessly draw offense in order to win them to Christ. To be “under” the law of Christ is to do things like Christ, selflessly, out of love for others. IOW, not regarding oneself first or pridefully more important than others (see Phil, 2:3-8 as prime example). It is stated that the believer is under the law of Christ, not that he lives under requirement to fulfill the law of Christ that he might, in the end, merit salvation.Gal 6:2 "Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.Again, this is not a salvation verse. But merely stating the fact that believers fulfill the law of Christ (selflessness) when bearing each other’s burdens.What are these “moral precepts” that God demands of you to keep in order to be saved? What “moral precepts” did Adam fail to keep when he transgressed in the garden and plunged all his posterity into a life of sin and death? Are we back to the 10 Commandments again? Paul explicitly states that the the purpose of the Law (which included the 10) was not to justify any man (i.e., make him righteous before God), nor did it have the power to give life. But that the righteousness which God demands in respect to salvation is a foreign righteousness. That which is provided by God to the one who believes in Christ alone - Rom 3:22 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

2 Cor 5:21 “He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might (as the goal) become the righteousness of God in Him.”

Gal 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (dia nomou, no definte article, i.e., the principle of law) then Christ died needlessly.”

Phil 3:9 "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"Such divine righteousness is based on promise, not law, grace, not works.

As for, “if you love Me you will keep My commandments,” well, we’ve been all through that. No one has yet shown me where Jesus called the 10 Commandments “My commandments.” Plus, he says, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” He does not say “If you keep My commandments I will save you.” You’re spinning again, Guanophore.Where is it stated the ministry of the H.S. is to enable the believer to keep the commandments? It is stated, however, that the believer is to now walk in/by the Spirit (who indwells him) and he will not carry out the desire of the flesh:Gal 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."All who enter the kingdom of God are possessors of eternal life. The “kingdom of God” is a broad term which includes all that is holy, such as the holy angels and all the redeemed of mankind. The kingdom itself is not eternal life, but all men who inherit it have it.

1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,…”.
​

Here we go again. Regarding the Spirit enabling believers to keep God’s commandments, Ezekiel 36:27

**27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. **

Regarding keeping God’s commandments, Paul says:

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Which commandments - as in plural - of God is he talking about?

Regarding love, John says:

2 John 6

**6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. **

Love means to walk according to His commadments - as in plural. Walk according to which commandments? Paul explains how love means walking according to His commandments and what these commandments are.

Romans 13:9

**9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” **

In other words, to love means to walk according to the Ten Commandments. Christ command to love is a summary of the Decalogue, the Decalogue expressed in a positive form. BTW, when Jesus says my commandments - as in plural or more than one - which commandments is He referring to?

God Bless,
Michael​

 

[guanophore]

You error in that (1) Paul specifically statesGal 3:25 "But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."Of course this referred only to the Jews, anyway. Gentiles were never under the covenant of Law/works (Rom. 9:4).

No, I am in agreement that living by faith makes the tutor unnecessary. I am just aware that most of us are not perfected in our faith. To the extent that we fail to live by faith (fulfilling the Law of Christ - love) we are still in need of tutoring. The Law is a mirror into which we can look, and come to understand how the sin that still lives in our members is ‘utterly sinful’. The fact that we are not “under the Law” does not mean we cannot benefit by it’s ministry.

(2) The “tutor” is the Mosaic Law. It does not enable anyone to “fulfill” the law of Christ. Where is it stated that men are required to “fulfill” the law of Christ for salvation, anyway?

I agree that we are not under Mosaic Law. What is said is that those who love Jesus will follow His commandments, and that Love is the fulfillment of the Law. If we are in Christ, we will do my nature what the Law requires, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the HS.

If that was true then all men are still under the principle of law (for salvation) and Paul deceives us when he states that we (believers) are not under the principle of law but under the principle of GRACE (unmerited favor).1 Cor 9:21 "…to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.In context, Paul is merely saying that in taking the gospel to the world (both Jews and Gentiles) he, as an evangelist, out of selfless love for others, refrains from anything that would needlessly draw offense in order to win them to Christ. To be “under” the law of Christ is to do things like Christ, selflessly, out of love for others.

Yes. We are not under Mosaic Law, but under the law of Christ. Since we are filled with the HS, we fulfill the Commandments selflessly out of love. His commandments are not burdensome, because it is God, working in us, to will and to do His good pleasure.

IOW, not regarding oneself first or pridefully more important than others (see Phil, 2:3-8 as prime example). It is stated that the believer is under the law of Christ, not that he lives under requirement to fulfill the law of Christ that he might, in the end, merit salvation.Gal 6:2 "Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.Again, this is not a salvation verse. But merely stating the fact that believers fulfill the law of Christ (selflessness) when bearing each other’s burdens.

Well, the word “bear” is in the imperative (command mode).
Catholics do not separate the verses into “salvation verses” and “other”. We take the whole of the message together. We don’t separate the salvation grace from the fruit that it produces in the soul of the believer.

What are these “moral precepts” that God demands of you to keep in order to be saved?

You keep using that phrase “God demands”. I am mystified by this. Why do you have this attitude about God? You just cited one of the most important moral precepts above. Just look up.

What “moral precepts” did Adam fail to keep when he transgressed in the garden and plunged all his posterity into a life of sin and death? Are we back to the 10 Commandments again?

That man was created by, for, and about God, and that we exist under an obligation of obedience to Him. That means, if we wish to exist in communion with Him, we must conform to His standards. Refusing to live within the limits that He has created for us separates us from His holiness.

No, this is a principle that transcends the Law of Moses. It existed before and after the Law of Moses.

Paul explicitly states that the the purpose of the Law (which included the 10) was not to justify any man (i.e., make him righteous before God), nor did it have the power to give life. But that the righteousness which God demands in respect to salvation is a foreign righteousness. That which is provided by God to the one who believes in Christ alone -

Rom 3:22 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”
​

This is a great Pauline point to make in this Pauline year!

Paul also taught that “we uphold the Law”. The fact that our righteousness comes from Christ does not “invalidate” the Law, or it’s ministry.

Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

Indeed! And for those who have not yet believed, the Law continues to tutor them.​