Commandments should not be followed ...

[guanophore]

I can show you numerous verses that say we are saved BY FAITH. Nothing added. I can show you numerous verses where faith is contrasted with works, where grace is contrasted with law and faith alone is so implicit, so inherent in those Scriptures that one would have to willfully ignore them.

Can you show me where the word “initial” is inserted before the words justification and salvation, implying that they’re conditional upon subsequent works? If you cannot do so will you quit making the non-scriptural assertion?

It seems we do need a new thread. It is clear that there is a starting point when a believer is transferred from the kingdom of darkness, into the kingdom of light. I do not think that even you would argue with this.

Furthermore, Catholicism does not teach that intial justification is conditional upon subsequent works, so you are again creating strawmen. You are arguing against your erroneous understanding of Catholic Teaching, and not against what Catholic Teaching really is. I think you must do this to cling to your Protestant position. If you were to really accept what the Catholic Church teaches, then you would have to become Catholic!

The church has always taught that a newly baptized person is absolutely clean in the sight of God. We had this discussion before, where I brought up that some persons waited to be baptized, so they could be sure to be in a pristine state at death.

 

[Teflon93]

This seems an apt time to show what the Catholic Church teaches regarding faith, grace, works, and salvation. Beware, Moondweller, for after this you will be lying if you claim otherwise. Lying is a sin, whether one acknowledges it to be or not.

The Catechism:

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990** Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals. **

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. **With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us. **

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

 

[Teflon93]

2003 **Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54 **

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59

2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 **The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. **

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. **This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62 **

2010 **Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions. **

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

**2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66 **

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ’s gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - “the holy mysteries” - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:

He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71

 

[Teflon93]

Moondweller and others will note well that in the Catechism passages above, there is no doubt that the Church teaches not a “works salvation”, but a “grace salvation”, as even the best good works we are able to accomplish stem from God-given grace, just as the good servants received the talents from the master they used to earn still more talents for Him.

 

[moondweller]

**

Originally Posted by moondweller **
Paul also later tell us that once saved by faith … we need to demonstrate fruits c/w our belief. Evidence of our ‘faithbased salvation’ is a must. James agrees with Paul … and emphasizes fact that if one claims to be Christian there needs be fruitful works to support their claims.

So … what is needed is a Protestant/Catholic merging of beliefs to arrive at the full truth. Protestants teach the accurate idea on initial salvation … Catholics better teach the correct need of Fruitful Works ‘ever thereafter’ in ones life.

I didn’t post this. How did you attached to me?

 

[Teflon93]

I didn’t post this. How did you attached to me?

The Quote tags occasionally hiccup. This happens most often with embedded quotes.

 

[guanophore]

Is your salvation conditioned upon this law? If so, then to you it is a law of works.

Well, it is, once again, very Catholic of you to say this!

Catholicism teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. This is one of the earliest written passages on the Catholic understanding of salvation. It shows that our salvation is “conditioned upon” grace.

All of this started because I asked for a list of “mortal sins.” A sin, it is taught, that has the power to cause a Catholic to lose his justification altogether. I was told “the 10 Commandments.”

It is not the “list of sins” that causes the loss of right standing in the sight of God, but the loss of grace. When we sin, we are not acting out of faith and love. Love is the fulfillment of the law, and failing to live by the rule of Christ (love) is an indication that faith is lacking. Without faith, is is impossible to please Him, and without faith, we cannot access saving grace. We are said, at such times, to have “fallen from grace”. Since grace is the basis of salvation (not the keeping of commandments) the believer is no longer standing on the firm foundation upon which the salvation is based. There remains, then, no sacrifice for sin.

Can you lose the infused righteousness you believe you received at baptism by violating one or any of the 10? If so, you may claim the law of Christ as your rule of life but ultimately you’re under the Law of Moses for damnation, which then, according to your belief system, trumps even the law of Christ.

Separation from the grace that saves results from placing faith in something other than Christ. Violating any of the 10 is sure evidence this has occurred. Such violations are a clear lack of following the law of love, under which the beleiver is judged.

The ministry of The Law (of Moses) has not changed. Even the Reformed, when “leading a person to Christ” will begin by demonstrating that the sinner has fallen short of God’s plan for humanity. I know, I used to do this all the time! It is very clear in those Campus Crusade booklets.

Anyway the fact that the law continues to point out what is sin does not bring the Christain “under the law”, since we have been freed from it.

The nature of sin, and it’s effects on man have not changed since the Garden of Eden either. Sin separates man from God. It did then, it has all the time until Christ, and continues to do so even “this side of the cross”. Christ did not set us free from it’s bondage so that we could continue in it. On the contrary, we uphold the Law, for love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, but Moses, it seems, can destroy the work of Christ.

I think you are wrongly accusing Moses here, and implying that the Mosaic Law is a “work of the devil”.

 

[guanophore]

This seems an apt time to show what the Catholic Church teaches regarding faith, grace, works, and salvation. Beware, Moondweller, for after this you will be lying if you claim otherwise. Lying is a sin, whether one acknowledges it to be or not.

This should be of little concern for moondweller, because he believes such sins cannot prevent him from entering Heaven. He was “saved” once in time, for all time, and believes that the effects of sin that have been demonstrated (revealed) by God to separate mankind from Himself, and bring consequences (even to believers) will not affect his eternal bliss with God.

He may subscribe to the reformers motto of “sin boldly”!

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t post this. How did you attached to me?

My apologies, I cut and paste the writer’s to source the quote, and obviously made a typo here. :crying:

 

[Teflon93]

This should be of little concern for moondweller, because he believes such sins cannot prevent him from entering Heaven. He was “saved” once in time, for all time, and believes that the effects of sin that have been demonstrated (revealed) by God to separate mankind from Himself, and bring consequences (even to believers) will not affect his eternal bliss with God.

He may subscribe to the reformers motto of “sin boldly”!

He has yet to answer the question definitively, which is why I keep asking it.

Since lying can in no way be considered to be a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit being Truth, and the saved under Moondweller’s soteriology must demonstrate fruit of the Spirit, I would presume that lying must indicate “not really being saved in the first place” in Moondweller’s system.

Galatians 5:

16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, **that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. **22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[guanophore]

He has yet to answer the question definitively, which is why I keep asking it.

Since lying can in no way be considered to be a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit being Truth, and the saved under Moondweller’s soteriology must demonstrate fruit of the Spirit, I would presume that lying must indicate “not really being saved in the first place” in Moondweller’s system.

Galatians 5:

16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, **that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. **22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is a good point, which I had not considered. However, keep in mind that the standard “love does no wrong to a neighbor” does not apply to us Catholics, since we are outside the boundaries of those he does consider saved.

By extension, he can then do wrong to any and all Catholics, since we are not protected under the law of love.

 

[BRB]

I firmly disagree with your last few sentences. The Protestants on this thread do not accurately teach the idea of “initial” salvation. In fact, they completely disagree with this teaching.

I can’t speak for all Protestant sects … but, the mainstream ones do correctly teach the Plan of Salvation as presented by Paul and Christ.

It is well described in simple language in publications like : Spiritual Laws of Salvation published by Campus Crusade for Christ, etc.

It stresses salvation by faith, not of works … with Christ able to bridge the divide between sin of man and holy God the Father.

I agree it is short … and doesn’t fully describe what is needed after one becomes Christian [step 2]. But, these publications on Plan of Salvation do fully explain Step 1.

We all must crawl before we walk. Trying to walk [step 2] before experiencing step 1 … is putting cart before the horse.

 

[guanophore]

I can’t speak for all Protestant sects … but, the mainstream ones do correctly teach the Plan of Salvation as presented by Paul and Christ.

It is well described in simple language in publications like : Spiritual Laws of Salvation published by Campus Crusade for Christ, etc.

It stresses salvation by faith, not of works … with Christ able to bridge the divide between sin of man and holy God the Father.

I agree it is short … and doesn’t fully describe what is needed after one becomes Christian [step 2]. But, these publications on Plan of Salvation do fully explain Step 1.

We all must crawl before we walk. Trying to walk [step 2] before experiencing step 1 … is putting cart before the horse.

Yes, I agree, but the devil is in the details. For example, an illustration with regard to the title of the thread, Christ commands His disciples be baptized. Both protestants and Catholics agree that baptism is a “work” (something in which people choose and act" that God does not “do” to man without his willful participation. Catholics believe that baptism infuses grace, and initially justifies, where Protestants reject this Apostolic Teaching.

 

[Teflon93]

This is a good point, which I had not considered. However, keep in mind that the standard “love does no wrong to a neighbor” does not apply to us Catholics, since we are outside the boundaries of those he does consider saved.

By extension, he can then do wrong to any and all Catholics, since we are not protected under the law of love.

And yet St Paul makes no such distinctions. Indeed, Christ’s commandment to love was made that the world would know that the disciples were truly of Christ.

Taken to the extreme, would the saved be able to murder the “unsaved” with impunity?

 

[Odell]

Is your salvation conditioned upon this law? If so, then to you it is a law of works.

All of this started because I asked for a list of “mortal sins.” A sin, it is taught, that has the power to cause a Catholic to lose his justification altogether. I was told “the 10 Commandments.”

Can you lose the infused righteousness you believe you received at baptism by violating one or any of the 10? If so, you may claim the law of Christ as your rule of life but ultimately you’re under the Law of Moses for damnation, which then, according to your belief system, trumps even the law of Christ.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, but Moses, it seems, can destroy the work of Christ.

moondweller your avoiding the question its basic scripture can you not answer scriptural questions? I make it aliittle biger font this time

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love” (Jn 4:7-8). In 1 John 3:14, he teaches that “Whoever does not love abides in death.”

A Catholic would say “if you love you know God if you dont love you dont know God. If you dont love you abide in death”

Im guessing you dont agree with this.

So do you agree with this passage ?

John further speaks against loving the world, warning that if one is to do this “the love of the Father is not in him” (2:15)

The big pickle/ silver bullet

If you are going to apply your rule of life without Love than your no different than the demans who believe and tremble agree ?

If you are going to aply your rule of life without the love of the Father, withhout love, without knowing God you abide in death moondweller

answer the question

You want to know what Paul had to say about Love?

Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:2, where he writes, “if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” This, beyond all doubt, proves that man cannot be saved by faith without love.

Christ came to fullfil the Law not to abolish it agreed ?

some more on Paul

Paul (Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

 

[BRB]

Catholics believe that baptism infuses grace, and initially justifies, where Protestants reject this Apostolic Teaching.

People tend to believe what they are told by clergy. Most people don’t study the scriptures and early Church history to verify what they are told.

Catholics are lucky their clergy is better informed, better educated, better grounded in scripture, teach better morals … and are not allowed the freedom to pick and choose. Over the ages the Church Universal has perfected its theology, weeded out most of heretical ideas, and Catholic laity can generally take what is taught as valid.

While Protestants can find Christ in their churches … they really need to do their homework to verify what they are receiving is valid teaching. In doing so they will discover that Protestants are starved with regards to many of 7 sacraments.

Protestants are sincere in their faith and in general do better job of following great commission than Catholics. Christ has disciples in both religious institutions. Still, w/o the whole host of sacraments … Protestants are handicapped in experiencing full graces instituted by Christ.

Let Catholics join hands with Protestants in brotherhood/sisterhood. We share more in common than we disagree about.

Invite a fellow child of God to Mass this week. We have got to get past Martin Luther’s heresy and not blame cradle Protestants for his sins. Encourage a Protestant to read early Church history for themselves.

 

[BRB]

You may wish to go back an read this again, BRB. We are not saved by faith, or by works. We are saved by grace. This is because faith is also a work.

?

Guano …

you contradict yourself [and Paul’s words] in what you propose up above.

RCC Cat. 1992 … God justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

 

[BRB]

The Catechism:

It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because “heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away.”[/INDENT]

Not to change the subject, but … sounds like St. Augustine is proclaiming OSAS here.

Seriously, can Christ lose a soul he has justified ? Election … would seem forever.

Guano talks of multiple justifications for Abraham [us ??]. What is the Church’s teaching on Election … and its Finality ?

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s look at Galatians 5:1-4

**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again **to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those who sought to be justified by the law were those who desired to be circumcised. Moreover, the ones seeking to be justified by law were not people who were never saved, who never had genuine faith. Paul is talking about Christians who started out with genuine faith:

Galatians 1:6

**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him **who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Galatians 3:3

3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 4:9-11

9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Paul is not talking about being severed from the path to Christ. He clearly says they have been severed from Christ. Why? Because as the above passages demonstrated, many Christian Galatians, having begun by the Spirit, deserted Him who called them by grace and were reverting to the Old Covenant - succumbing to the teaching of the Judaizers - and were falling into enslavement again, as in second time. This has resulted in being severed from Christ and a fall from grace.

God bless,
Michael

Just in case this went unnoticed.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Teflon93]

Not to change the subject, but … sounds like St. Augustine is proclaiming OSAS here.

Seriously, can Christ lose a soul he has justified ? Election … would seem forever.

Guano talks of multiple justifications for Abraham [us ??]. What is the Church’s teaching on Election … and its Finality ?

You can read the section I posted. St Augustine is referring to the perseverance of the saints. This requires more than justification; in many cases it required martyrdom.

Here’s the final paragraph I posted:

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church** rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus**.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71

We must continue on to the end. If we die in a state of mortal sin, out of communion with the Church Christ founded, we will not have persevered to the end regardless of the faith of our parents which led to our initial justification at baptism and the beginning of grace.

The problem with OSAS is that it simply isn’t Scriptural—too much of the Bible emphasizes the need to persevere, not to simply have an event. St Paul had a dramatic conversion; however, he stressed the need to deny his flesh. He was susceptible to temptation nonetheless, and could have fallen away but for the grace of God and his own free will to choose righteousness.